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Financial and economic challenges to Church activity


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29 minutes ago, rongo said:

You're probably right that unusual is more accurate than extremely rare. I think the trajectory is rapidly leading that way, if people aren't there already.

Very true. My wife's community college tuition per semester was $1500 (so, $3000 per year). NAU is $12,000 per year; ASU and UofA more expensive. Housing and other costs and fees are as much as tuition. 

I don't know about this year, but my daughter graduated last year and ASU was $12,000.  There is some differences as to which campus the major is located - Phoenix campus was a few $100 more per semester and you have to pay that even if all your classes are in Tempe that semester.

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58 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Single income families might be unusual today, but extremely rare? Without documentation, I would question that. 
 

Regarding education costs, a huge saving can come from  enrolling in a lower-cost, state university or community college closer to home and by living at home and commuting. A respectable education can be obtained at such institutions, and there is no shame in benefitting from the economy of scale in living under your parents’ roof until you can achieve a greater measure of independence. 

Depends on how you look at the bolded.  We agree with you, but others do not.  My daughter has been shamed for living at home, not having a car and taking the train.

She really struggled in one class and went in to get help. For some reason he asked if she lived at home.  When she said yes he told her that students who live at home don't do as well because "mommy does your laundry and everything for you". When she told him she had done her own laundry since she was 14* he didn't know what to say. But all of her classmates and TAs felt he was bad at teaching so he just had a thing against those living at home.

*She was actually 12 when she started.  She just didn't realize when.

Edited by Rain
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18 minutes ago, Rain said:

Meaning you can't leave the program to serve a mission?  What if you serve before you start? 

Why does Germany want this?  What do they gain?  Are there requirements after a student graduates?

Very good question. I have some insight into this, because of my Goethe Institute training in D.C. 

The German government invests hundreds of millions into programs and institutions to foster and promote good relations with the United States. This has business and cultural advantages for them, but it really stems from the special relationship that resulted from the recovery after World War 2, the Cold War, and the Reunification. They also have a vested interest in German programs in the United States (which have declined in number and in number of students) prospering and spreading again. Hence the investment in exchanges, study abroad, etc.

Many "amazing" things are not mission-friendly, because they are not set up for missions or with missions in mind. Our son didn't even apply for the Flinn scholarship (a massive full-everything scholarship designed to keep the best Arizona students in Arizona public universities, rather than the Ivies, Stanford, Vanderbilt, BYU :) , etc.), even though he would have been competitive for it, because it stipulated that Flinn winners must stay with their cohort. A mission is not in their interest, and does nothing for the Flinn Foundation. It remains to be seen if he will get his Lumberjack scholarship back at NAU (we're optimistic). German universities are the same way. Why should they let you delay your all-expenses paid education for two years, and throw you off the track they have you on? The same would apply to delaying: they would see no reason to put all that effort into getting you ready to go through your 10th, 11th, and 12th grade years, only to have you do something else for two years, before beginning. I can see it from their perspective. 

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5 minutes ago, rongo said:

Very good question. I have some insight into this, because of my Goethe Institute training in D.C. 

The German government invests hundreds of millions into programs and institutions to foster and promote good relations with the United States. This has business and cultural advantages for them, but it really stems from the special relationship that resulted from the recovery after World War 2, the Cold War, and the Reunification. They also have a vested interest in German programs in the United States (which have declined in number and in number of students) prospering and spreading again. Hence the investment in exchanges, study abroad, etc.

Many "amazing" things are not mission-friendly, because they are not set up for missions or with missions in mind. Our son didn't even apply for the Flinn scholarship (a massive full-everything scholarship designed to keep the best Arizona students in Arizona public universities, rather than the Ivies, Stanford, Vanderbilt, BYU :) , etc.), even though he would have been competitive for it, because it stipulated that Flinn winners must stay with their cohort. A mission is not in their interest, and does nothing for the Flinn Foundation. It remains to be seen if he will get his Lumberjack scholarship back at NAU (we're optimistic). German universities are the same way. Why should they let you delay your all-expenses paid education for two years, and throw you off the track they have you on? The same would apply to delaying: they would see no reason to put all that effort into getting you ready to go through your 10th, 11th, and 12th grade years, only to have you do something else for two years, before beginning. I can see it from their perspective. 

Ahh ok.  I wasn't sure when you were saying "sophomore" if you meant high school or college.  It made sense for high school, but some of the wording made me wonder.  Thanks! 

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28 minutes ago, Rain said:

Depends on how you look at the bolded.  We agree with you, but others do not.  My daughter has been shamed for living at home, not having a car and taking the train.

She really struggled in one class and went in to get help. For some reason he asked if she lived at home.  When she said yes he told her that students who live at home don't do as well because "mommy does your laundry and everything for you". When she told him she had done her own laundry since she was 14* he didn't know what to say. But all of her classmates and TAs felt he was bad at teaching so he just had a thing against those living at home.

*She was actually 12 when she started.  She just didn't realize when.

That was an extremely ignorant and thoughtless remark on the part of that faculty member. I hope that attitude is not widespread, but even if it is, it is just plain wrong. 
 

I still say that, depending on the circumstances, it can be a very prudent thing to cut expenses by commuting from home and continuing for a while at least to take advantage of the economy of scale inherent in living under the same roof as your parents and siblings. 
 

Incidentally, in keeping with the economy-of-scale concept, children could be taught to do not just their own but the household laundry. I know that in our home, we would be far less efficient if each of us did his or her own laundry separate and apart from everybody else. 

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2 hours ago, rongo said:

You're probably right that unusual is more accurate than extremely rare.

Idk. I think it is extremely rare. According to this organization only 7% of all families raising children are the traditional single income model. https://www.prb.org/traditional-families-account-for-only-7-percent-of-u-s-households/

Edited by katherine the great
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14 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

Idk. I think it is extremely rare. According to this organization only 7% of all families raising children are the traditional single income model. https://www.prb.org/traditional-families-account-for-only-7-percent-of-u-s-households/

Definitely in society "at large." In the Church, it's probably not yet "extremely rare" to have one-income families, but it's getting there. 

My wife and I were talking this week (which spurred the thread) about whether and how our children would be able to do that in these economic times. Obviously, their future spouses will have a say in that (and other things, too). We feel really blessed that we've been able to raise our children with mom home, but we realize and see that that might not be possible in coming years for our children. As I think everyone knows, many LDS young people (and adults, too) don't see it the same way as we do, and I don't think there is a stigma attached in the Church to not having mom stay home. We certainly feel like we're in the minority, in our wards, and the Brethren haven't mentioned it at all for decades now, so it seems like that norm as changed in the Church. Probably heavily impacted by economic realities. 

ETA: Home prices are astronomical pretty much everywhere. We're on our third housesitting stint, but will need to move again in about a year and a half. The homes where we live are in the $300,000 range, but the homes near my school (50 minute commute, currently) are in the $700-800,000 range. Gulp! We'll probably live 20 minutes towards Florence, where the homes are also in the $300,000 range. While renting and moving has been a pain, we haven't been paying anywhere near market value for what will be six years. My wife has been substitute teaching, health permitting, and her working full-time would certainly help. She could teach full time with her bachelor's in the charter system (she is a fantastic teacher and disciplinarian, even without a teacher's certificate), but we don't think we can commit to a contract with her health being unpredictable. Our youngest is 15, and she would teach at the school I'm at, so we all drive together. 

Separate question: my wife hasn't worked since we got married 23 years ago. How does it work with Social Security (assuming it's still solvent when we retire in 20-30 years)? Can she accrue full credit by just subbing here and there, or must one work full-time for X number of years? Anyone know how that works?

Edited by rongo
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28 minutes ago, rongo said:

Definitely in society "at large." In the Church, it's probably not yet "extremely rare" to have one-income families, but it's getting there. 

My wife and I were talking this week (which spurred the thread) about whether and how our children would be able to do that in these economic times. Obviously, their future spouses will have a say in that (and other things, too). We feel really blessed that we've been able to raise our children with mom home, but we realize and see that that might not be possible in coming years for our children. As I think everyone knows, many LDS young people (and adults, too) don't see it the same way as we do, and I don't think there is a stigma attached in the Church to not having mom stay home. We certainly feel like we're in the minority, in our wards, and the Brethren haven't mentioned it at all for decades now, so it seems like that norm as changed in the Church. Probably heavily impacted by economic realities. 

ETA: Home prices are astronomical pretty much everywhere. We're on our third housesitting stint, but will need to move again in about a year and a half. The homes where we live are in the $300,000 range, but the homes near my school (50 minute commute, currently) are in the $700-800,000 range. Gulp! We'll probably live 20 minutes towards Florence, where the homes are also in the $300,000 range. While renting and moving has been a pain, we haven't been paying anywhere near market value for what will be six years. My wife has been substitute teaching, health permitting, and her working full-time would certainly help. She could teach full time with her bachelor's in the charter system (she is a fantastic teacher and disciplinarian, even without a teacher's certificate), but we don't think we can commit to a contract with her health being unpredictable. Our youngest is 15, and she would teach at the school I'm at, so we all drive together. 

Separate question: my wife hasn't worked since we got married 23 years ago. How does it work with Social Security (assuming it's still solvent when we retire in 20-30 years)? Can she accrue full credit by just subbing here and there, or must one work full-time for X number of years? Anyone know how that works?

Here is the info.  Edited: it will depend on how much she makes.

Edited by Rain
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5 minutes ago, Rain said:

Here is the info.  Edited: it will depend on how much she makes.

Thanks! Yikes. One can't qualify unless one makes at least $5000 a year (adjusted over time). I wonder what the "credit" requirement was back in the late 1990s?

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2 hours ago, Rain said:

Depends on how you look at the bolded.  We agree with you, but others do not.  My daughter has been shamed for living at home, not having a car and taking the train.

She really struggled in one class and went in to get help. For some reason he asked if she lived at home.  When she said yes he told her that students who live at home don't do as well because "mommy does your laundry and everything for you". When she told him she had done her own laundry since she was 14* he didn't know what to say. But all of her classmates and TAs felt he was bad at teaching so he just had a thing against those living at home.

*She was actually 12 when she started.  She just didn't realize when.

I would say the big difference is your daughter is going to college and progressing towards graduation (probably working, too, I would think. I don't remember). The problems are the young people who live at home, don't really work much, aren't doing school, and aren't going anywhere in life. This is an increasing segment of the population. In the Church, it's worse because we know the spiritual downside of not progressing (it's corrosive and damaging in more ways than "just not going anywhere"). The kids who are "failing to launch" are going backwards in the gospel and their covenants. I can't think of one who is doing well spiritually. I think I shared this before, but youth who are out of high school now but were kids when we were in their ward who are now anti-Church all share this trait. I think part of their problem is they don't want to "adult," and they use their testimony as a nuclear bomb to get their parents off their back. It's effective, because parents don't want to jeopardize the relationship. In the boys' cases, they don't want to serve missions or go to school or get into a profession, but rather than say that, they are mad about blacks and the priesthood, mad about Church finances, etc. 

There are really outstanding professors, and there are really rotten ones. This guy sounds like the latter. 

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1 hour ago, rongo said:

 

Separate question: my wife hasn't worked since we got married 23 years ago. How does it work with Social Security (assuming it's still solvent when we retire in 20-30 years)? Can she accrue full credit by just subbing here and there, or must one work full-time for X number of years? Anyone know how that works?

How has your wife not worked for 23 years if she is substitute teaching?  Do you mean she hasn't worked full time?  Because I would count being a substitute teaching as working, and I would consider you guys to be a two income household, even if she's not working full time.   So I'm obviously not understanding your post like I thought I did and need some clarification.

Here's a great link about SS that might be helpful.  

Edited by bluebell
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2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

How has your wife not worked for 23 years if she is substitute teaching?  Do you mean she hasn't worked full time?  Because I would count being a substitute teaching as working, and I would consider you guys to be a two income household, even if she's not working full time.  

Here's a great link about SS that might be helpful.  

She started a few weeks ago. After 23 years of not working. :) 

ETA: Back when the SSA used to send out the annual statements, hers said she wasn't eligible for benefits. From what I'm reading, she still won't be even after 20 years of working again if she earns below the ca. $5700 threshold (likely).

Edited by rongo
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19 hours ago, rchorse said:

I agree with everything you say here, except that there's no stigma with the skilled trades in Europe. We lived in Germany until January of 2020, and those who went to Gymnasium do look down on those who went to Real- or Hauptschule. I don't think it's to the same extent as here in the U.S., but the stigma does exist there, as well.

Gymnasium was one of the reasons we moved back. Our boys were looking to be headed for Gymnasium, and it's been turned into something ridiculous in terms of how demanding and stressful it is. We wanted our kids to be able to explore different career and educational paths without the extreme pressure of Gymnasium starting so early. American students and schools really stack up just fine against Germany when you compare apples to apples, as you said.

This is true.  German society is very class stratified.  This is not obvious to the casual tourist who has visited a few times, but it's true nonetheless.  Many things are different.  I belong to a club that has a lot of German expats as members.  As we were sitting at our monthly meeting, one of the members who is a friend of mine observed that if he was in Germany, we wouldn't be meeting together, because I'm a professional, and he is in the trades.  We would have different clubs in the same town for the same hobby.

Edited by mrmarklin
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18 hours ago, katherine the great said:

When I was in fifth grade I wanted to be a stewardess (not even a “flight attendant”) I wanted to wear PSAs pink and orange mini dresses, wear blue eye shadow and bring people peanuts. I even went to San Jose airport to interview some of these pretty ladies for my “What I want to be when I grow up” essay. That’s how much I knew about anything when I was 10. 

In Germany, for sure, you test how you test.  Clearly if one does not want to go to Gymnasium one doesn't have to, but culturally, it is the goal of achievers.

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6 hours ago, katherine the great said:

Here’s the rub. For whatever reason I became extremely academically inclined later. But I certainly was not in fifth grade. Still, I suppose a system has to work primarily with “norms”.

You likely would have tested OK for Gymnasium.  It's like an IQ test.  Not what do you want to be.............................

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4 hours ago, rongo said:

 

Separate question: my wife hasn't worked since we got married 23 years ago. How does it work with Social Security (assuming it's still solvent when we retire in 20-30 years)? Can she accrue full credit by just subbing here and there, or must one work full-time for X number of years? Anyone know how that works?

My wife has never worked outside our home.  She gets half my social security amount.  Mine did not decrease.  Your wife will get half of yours or hers, depending on which is greater, come retirement age.

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9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I happen to read that 70 million from tithing in Canada goes to BYU. Does that stay or then leave and go into other accounts? Or good question, right? I thought that seemed like a lot and I was glad about it, but not sure, not my area of expertise. If so, I hope that like you mentioned is needed, that private organizations will help our future students in these the United State! I worry!

We have a huge number of students from Canada (and elsewhere) going to BYU campuses, which is nice.  But I would like to see the LDS Church pick up the tab of students going to other schools.  It isn't simply tithing money we are speaking of here.  The Church invests a lot of money and grows it very well.  That endowment can be spent, and there will be excellent returns on the human investment.

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10 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I happen to read that 70 million from tithing in Canada goes to BYU. Does that stay or then leave and go into other accounts? Or good question, right? I thought that seemed like a lot and I was glad about it, but not sure, not my area of expertise. If so, I hope that like you mentioned is needed, that private organizations will help our future students in these the United State! I worry!

This has been discussed before.  Charitable donations are not allowed to leave Canada except in the case of educational organizations that admit a minimum number of Canadian students iirc (I am fairly certain I looked up the law back when this was first brought up here or elsewhere in my presence) and some other cases that would not apply to tithing.  By Canadian tithing going to support BYU with its large contingent of Canadian students (best roommates I had were from Canada), this allows for US tithing which does not have the same restrictions to be sent to support the rest of the world (allegedly the US and Canada are the only two countries self supporting through tithing on a regular basis, I think Australia may be at times as well...this is from memory, there may be a few more, but the majority of countries need subsidizing to provide church services, buildings, etc...this was discussed in one of the whistleblower document threads).

I will try and find an old thread where this is discussed.

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/68495-mormonleaks-publishes-docs-on-ga-pay-meetings/page/17/?tab=comments#comment-1209688047

It was discussed in this thread starting at least by page 17...I can’t be sure if there are early remarks because the search function won’t work for 2017.. google just took me to the thread.

Edited by Calm
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4 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

That endowment can be spent, and there will be excellent returns on the human investment.

Perpetual Education Fund has been in operation since 2001 (Pres. Gordon B.  Hinckley) and applies to the whole world.

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There are very restrictive rules on Canadian charities funding activities abroad. A registered charity can only use its funds to further its own activities or to make grants to "qualified donees" (other registered charities or qualified charities). In a cross-border situation, there are limited organisations that a registered charity can make grants to, including:
  • Canadian-registered charities operating abroad.
  • The Crown in right of Canada or a province.
  • The United Nations and its agencies.
  • Foreign universities customarily attended by Canadians.
  • Foreign charities that have received a gift from the Federal Crown in the current or immediately previous tax year.

https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/2-632-0462?transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Default)&firstPage=true

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32 minutes ago, longview said:

Perpetual Education Fund has been in operation since 2001 (Pres. Gordon B.  Hinckley) and applies to the whole world.

I don't think North Americans are eligible for PEF help for school, with the understanding that they will pay it back as they are able. Are they? 

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3 minutes ago, rongo said:

I don't think North Americans are eligible for PEF help for school, with the understanding that they will pay it back as they are able. Are they? 

No one is excluded - - - from the church website:

You will work together with your bishop or branch president to decide if you qualify for a PEF loan. You will need his endorsement to begin the application process. The three qualifications are worthy, needy, and determined.

Worthy

Qualifying for a PEF loan starts with living the gospel and qualifying for and receiving a temple recommend (limited use recommends also apply).

Needy

PEF funds are sacred and are meant only for members with significant financial need.

Think about all your different sources of income (your own and your family’s) to pay for school. This can include grants and scholarships. If you need help learning different ways to pay for your education, see Education for Better Work, pages 95–116, or contact your stake self-reliance specialist or your local self-reliance center.

Determined

You will need to work hard, diligently study, and overcome challenges to graduate from your program, find a better job, pay back your loan, and become self-reliant.

Why you need to pay back your loan

Each time you make a loan repayment, you create the opportunity for someone else to become self-reliant through education. Your honesty in returning the funds you borrowed will bless your life, your family, and the lives of those who follow you.

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8 minutes ago, longview said:

No one is excluded - - - from the church website:

Huh. Does anyone know anyone in the U.S. or Canada who had help from PEF? I would be fascinated to here about that! 

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12 minutes ago, rongo said:

Huh. Does anyone know anyone in the U.S. or Canada who had help from PEF? I would be fascinated to here about that! 

Liberals are always asserting there is poverty and hunger in America.  So why not?

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