Eternal Progression

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

I didn't catch what you said the first time I read this post about there could kingdoms higher than the celestial,  that's interesting,  I've never considered that a possiblity. I could see that being part of the plan. 

Again, look at the blessings promised in the marriage sealing.  And there are other indicators too.

But McConkie's deadly heresies left a lasting impact to where eternal progression got shut down as a Church teaching.  But the remnants still exist here and there.

[CV75]

23 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Again, look at the blessings promised in the marriage sealing.  And there are other indicators too.

But McConkie's deadly heresies left a lasting impact to where eternal progression got shut down as a Church teaching.  But the remnants still exist here and there.

I think it depends on how one envisions eternal progression. If you lose any advantage in the timing or continuity of your progress (D&C 130:19), that would disrupt the "eternal" approach to things, possibly to the point of calling it quits. And then there's the impact of your timing and continuity on others which in turn impacts you. As long as you are off the path or lose pace, you are not progressing eternally.

Considering opposition in all things, progressing calls for retrogressing, in which case being on and off the path in the afterlife would require a notion of sin and repentance that gets into the "God will not lie" teaching. If God will not retrogress, then I think not-Gods will not progress as God does, post-resurrection, unless they have received their calling and election by the time of their resurrection and Judgement Day.

(Note that I'm not sure what remnants you are referring to).

[AtlanticMike]

20 hours ago, CV75 said:

I think it depends on how one envisions eternal progression. If you lose any advantage in the timing or continuity of your progress (D&C 130:19), that would disrupt the "eternal" approach to things, possibly to the point of calling it quits. And then there's the impact of your timing and continuity on others which in turn impacts you. As long as you are off the path or lose pace, you are not progressing eternally.

Considering opposition in all things, progressing calls for retrogressing, in which case being on and off the path in the afterlife would require a notion of sin and repentance that gets into the "God will not lie" teaching. If God will not retrogress, then I think not-Gods will not progress as God does, post-resurrection, unless they have received their calling and election by the time of their resurrection and Judgement Day.

(Note that I'm not sure what remnants you are referring to).

Reading your post I wasn't sure about calling and election, so I looked it up and I've been reading and watching videos ever since. What the hell?? Per the rules on this board I assume it cant be talked about because I did a search and nothing popped up. Even on the church website it says use caution when talking about it. I'm amazed at what I dont actually know about the church I belong to. This has been a rough couple of weeks.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Reading your post I wasn't sure about calling and election, so I looked it up and I've been reading and watching videos ever since. What the hell?? Per the rules on this board I assume it cant be talked about because I did a search and nothing popped up. Even on the church website it says use caution when talking about it. I'm amazed at what I dont actually know about the church I belong to. This has been a rough couple of weeks.

If you did a search with the board’s search function, all that means is it hasn’t been discussed in the last year.  Unfortunately for some reason, the search function only works for a year.  Better to use site:mormondialogue.org with “calling and election” search term.

[Calm]

Have you read this yet?

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Question:_What_is_the_"second_anointing"%3F

[rongo]

The question of progression within and between kingdoms is one that inevitably comes up when people feel free to discuss Mormon doctrine, past and present. Decades of correlation have stamped out desire to discuss and explore in church settings, for the most part, but a genuine hunger for it is alive and well in the Church at large, and people are often energized and invigorated when they find that 

As with most questions like the OP, this is one of those "prophet poker" issues: there are a range of ideas and teachings, with nothing official and binding (hat tip to Allen Wyatt for the "prophet poker" idea). "I'll see your Joseph Smith and raise it a Bruce R. McConkie. I'll counter your BRM with a Brigham Young. . . ."

I love talking about these unique Mormon doctrines and ideas. It's one of the things --- other than my rugged good looks and my wife's gorgeousness --- that my wife and I really liked about each other when we were dating. And, we don't always agree on these things, which is more than okay --- it's fun and interesting to discuss them, even when nothing is definitively settled.

A few years ago, I was asked to give Q&A firesides in some wards in Gilbert. The purpose was to introduce members to the idea of discussing interesting doctrines and ideas, without being bound by anything (since no one there is authorized to speak for the Church. That was emphasized in the "ground rules" in the firesides. I was invited --- I didn't seek these out). While many people initially seem to default to "we really shouldn't be talking about these things" or "none of this affects our salvation," it was invigorating and interesting to many to be able to talk about these things (which many have wondered about) in a faithful setting. I think of Orson Scott Card's definition of "investigator" in Saintspeak: The Mormon Dictionary.  "Someone who is convinced that there are deep and interesting truths in Mormonism, despite the missionaries' insistence on sticking to the discussions." This is what's missing for a lot of people in tightly correlated church and curricula, but which can be found in books and manuals from bygone eras.

Regarding the OP question, I emphasized that this is one of the open doctrinal questions that "prophet poker" can be played with, and everyone can have his own ideas on. The two quotes I shared are from James E. Talmage, in the first few editions of Articles of Faith (but removed in later ones) and B. H. Roberts in volume 1 of New Witnesses for God. 

Talmage: "It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God's plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress. And thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdom of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God's living purpose is associated power of eternal increase." (AoF, pp. 420-421, removed in later editions).

Roberts: "The question of advancement within the great divisions of glory celestial, terrestrial, and telestial; as also the question of advancement from one sphere of glory to another remains to be considered. In the revelation from which we have summarized what has been written here, in respect to the different degrees of glory (i.e., D&C 76), it is said that those of the terrestrial glory will be ministered unto by those of the celestial; and those of the telestial will be ministered unto by those of the terrestrial --- that is, those of the higher glory minister to those of a lesser glory. I can conceive of no reason for all this ministering of the higher to the lower, unless it be for the purpose of advancing our Father's children along the lines of eternal progression. (emphasis mine) Whether or not in the great future, full of so many possibilities now hidden from us, they of the lesser glories after education and advancement within those spheres may at last emerge  from them and make their way to the higher degrees of glory until at last they attain to the highest, is not revealed in the revelations of God, and any statements made on the subject must partake more or less of the nature of conjecture. But if it be granted that such a thing is possible, they who at first entered into the celestial glory --- having before them the privilege also of eternal progress --- have been moving onward, so that the relative distance between them and those who have fought their way up from the lesser glories may be as great when the latter have come into the degrees of celestial glory in which the righteous at first stood, as it was at the commencement. Thus: those whose faith and works are such only as to enable them to inherit a telestial glory, may arrive at last where those whose works in this life were such as to enable them entrance into the celestial kingdom --- they may arrive where these were, but never where they are (emphasis mine)." New Witnesses for God 1:391-392

I like the thoughts here. What does "minister" mean in D&C 76, and what is the point of "ministering" from higher kingdoms to lower if progress is eternally limited (especially if this ministering includes teaching and learning)? I also like the point about there being a difference between hypothetical attainment of what people had, but not being able to be where they are (because of their eternal and probably exponential progress as well).  In my experience, people are more troubled that Talmage's statement was removed (why not leave it as a relic of former thought, if nothing else?). I think it's obvious that this is so that people don't "rest on their laurels" and lazily figure that they can coast in this life and get their act together in the hereafter. I think that this discounts how difficult progress would be --- there are very good reasons why "this life is the time to prepare to meet God" (mortality gives huge advantages in "getting it right the first time"), and "that same spirit will rise with us in the resurrection" (we're not magically going to have initiative, desire, motive, etc. if we don't have it here. We are essentially the same people there that we are here --- that's why we're toast if we don't apply the atonement, but it won't be easier to apply it there, and may be harder in many ways without a body, etc.).

Edited January 3, 2021 by rongo

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

The question of progression within and between kingdoms is one that inevitably comes up when people feel free to discuss Mormon doctrine, past and present. Decades of correlation have stamped out desire to discuss and explore in church settings, for the most part, but a genuine hunger for it is alive and well in the Church at large, and people are often energized and invigorated when they find that 

As with most questions like the OP, this is one of those "prophet poker" issues: there are a range of ideas and teachings, with nothing official and binding (hat tip to Allen Wyatt for the "prophet poker" idea). "I'll see your Joseph Smith and raise it a Bruce R. McConkie. I'll counter your BRM with a Brigham Young. . . ."

A few years ago, I was asked to give Q&A firesides in some wards in Gilbert. The purpose was to introduce members to the idea of discussing interesting doctrines and ideas, without being bound by anything (since no one there is authorized to speak for the Church. That was emphasized in the "ground rules" in the firesides. I was invited --- I didn't seek these out). While many people initially seem to default to "we really shouldn't be talking about these things" or "none of this affects our salvation," it was invigorating and interesting to many to be able to talk about these things (which many have wondered about) in a faithful setting. I think of Orson Scott Card's definition of "investigator" in Saintspeak: The Mormon Dictionary.  "Someone who is convinced that there are deep and interesting truths in Mormonism, despite the missionaries' insistence on sticking to the discussions." This is what's missing for a lot of people in tightly correlated church and curricula, but which can be found in books and manuals from bygone eras.

This is so true! There are many Saints who study and discuss the deeper subjects.  I think everyone should have a safe and faithful space to do so.  We'd have far fewer faith crises if people weren't constantly finding out of context "truth" on the internet but could instead discuss it with faithful studied members.  Expecting people to maintain testimonies by sticking to correlated material is naive.  And I'm totally stealing the term "prophet poker".

Quote

Regarding the OP question, I emphasized that this is one of the open doctrinal questions that "prophet poker" can be played with, and everyone can have his own ideas on. The two quotes I shared are from James E. Talmage, in the first few editions of Articles of Faith (but removed in later ones) and B. H. Roberts in volume 1 of New Witnesses for God. 

Talmage: "It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God's plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress. And thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdom of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God's living purpose is associated power of eternal increase." (AoF, pp. 420-421, removed in later editions).

Roberts: "The question of advancement within the great divisions of glory celestial, terrestrial, and telestial; as also the question of advancement from one sphere of glory to another remains to be considered. In the revelation from which we have summarized what has been written here, in respect to the different degrees of glory (i.e., D&C 76), it is said that those of the terrestrial glory will be ministered unto by those of the celestial; and those of the telestial will be ministered unto by those of the terrestrial --- that is, those of the higher glory minister to those of a lesser glory. I can conceive of no reason for all this ministering of the higher to the lower, unless it be for the purpose of advancing our Father's children along the lines of eternal progression. (emphasis mine) Whether or not in the great future, full of so many possibilities now hidden from us, they of the lesser glories after education and advancement within those spheres may at last emerge  from them and make their way to the higher degrees of glory until at last they attain to the highest, is not revealed in the revelations of God, and any statements made on the subject must partake more or less of the nature of conjecture. But if it be granted that such a thing is possible, they who at first entered into the celestial glory --- having before them the privilege also of eternal progress --- have been moving onward, so that the relative distance between them and those who have fought their way up from the lesser glories may be as great when the latter have come into the degrees of celestial glory in which the righteous at first stood, as it was at the commencement. Thus: those whose faith and works are such only as to enable them to inherit a telestial glory, may arrive at last where those whose works in this life were such as to enable them entrance into the celestial kingdom --- they may arrive where these were, but never where they are (emphasis mine)." New Witnesses for God 1:391-392

Great quotes.  As I said, pre-McConkie heresy remnants of eternal progression remain scattered throughout Mormonism, like King Follett, the temple and sealing ceremonies, Brigham's teachings.  These are two more.  I doubt McConkie would have labeled Brigham, Roberts and Talmage heretics but perhaps that's why Talmage got edited.

Quote

I like the thoughts here. What does "minister" mean in D&C 76, and what is the point of "ministering" from higher kingdoms to lower if progress is eternally limited (especially if this ministering includes teaching and learning)? I also like the point about there being a difference between hypothetical attainment of what people had, but not being able to be where they are (because of their eternal and probably exponential progress as well).  In my experience, people are more troubled that Talmage's statement was removed (why not leave it as a relic of former thought, if nothing else?). I think it's obvious that this is so that people don't "rest on their laurels" and lazily figure that they can coast in this life and get their act together in the hereafter. I think that this discounts how difficult progress would be --- there are very good reasons why "this life is the time to prepare to meet God" (mortality gives huge advantages in "getting it right the first time"), and "that same spirit will rise with us in the resurrection" (we're not magically going to have initiative, desire, motive, etc. if we don't have it here. We are essentially the same people there that we are here --- that's why we're toast if we don't apply the atonement, but it won't be easier to apply it there, and may be harder in many ways without a body, etc.).

I appreciate reading your thoughts on this topic.  I consider this approach far more effective in building testimonies than "we really shouldn't be talking about these things" or "none of this affects our salvation".

[CV75]

9 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Reading your post I wasn't sure about calling and election, so I looked it up and I've been reading and watching videos ever since. What the hell?? Per the rules on this board I assume it cant be talked about because I did a search and nothing popped up. Even on the church website it says use caution when talking about it. I'm amazed at what I dont actually know about the church I belong to. This has been a rough couple of weeks.

Sorry to hear that -- when you say "a rough couple of weeks" are you referring to posting on this board, life in general, or what you are learning about the Church (hopefully from reliable sources)?

[CV75]

3 hours ago, rongo said:

--- they may arrive where these were, but never where they are (emphasis mine)."

But there is allowance for different rates of progression (Abraham 3:17-19), so theoretically a spirit that fell behind can overtake the spirit that more consistently-but-leisurely advanced. But since retrogression does not seem to be an option post-resurrection (as seemingly it was in the premortal war in heaven), post-resurrection would not, either.

All in the spirit of "nothing is definitively settled."

[AtlanticMike]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Sorry to hear that -- when you say "a rough couple of weeks" are you referring to posting on this board, life in general, or what you are learning about the Church (hopefully from reliable sources)?

Thank you for asking cv75. What I'm learning about the church has really rattled my cage in the past few weeks. I'll get through it. 

[AtlanticMike]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

Have you read this yet?

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Question:_What_is_the_"second_anointing"%3F

Thank you Calm

[CV75]

35 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Thank you for asking cv75. What I'm learning about the church has really rattled my cage in the past few weeks. I'll get through it. 

My only advice is to remember that your spiritual testimony is not a lie, and that conflicting data will sort itself out on the side of the fundamentals: God is our Father; Jesus Christ is His Son and the Savior of the world; the Church is the only kingdom of God on the earth (aka the only true Church) and is led by prophets, Joseph Smith being the first.

Unrelated to that, I like the dog (our daughter has a Boston Terrier and a French Bulldog).

[AtlanticMike]

8 minutes ago, CV75 said:

My only advice is to remember that your spiritual testimony is not a lie, and that conflicting data will sort itself out on the side of the fundamentals: God is our Father; Jesus Christ is His Son and the Savior of the world; the Church is the only kingdom of God on the earth (aka the only true Church) and is led by prophets, Joseph Smith being the first.

Unrelated to that, I like the dog (our daughter has a Boston Terrier and a French Bulldog).

Thank you for the advice. As for the dog, I dont have a Boston or a Frenchy,  its actually a album cover of a ban called Seether. Rock on✊🤣

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

Thank you for asking cv75. What I'm learning about the church has really rattled my cage in the past few weeks. I'll get through it. 

Just remember in addition to witnesses you've already received answers and references to most topics exist.  There is hardly a topic hasn't been discussed here in depth.  But as my signature says, expect an eternity of cats being let out of the bag.

[Ahab]

On 1/1/2021 at 6:46 AM, AtlanticMike said:

In my last thread, (damnation in the terrestrial kingdom), the topic of eternal progression kept popping up. So I'm starting this thread so we can discuss the topic of eternal progression and find out if people believe in progression between kingdoms of heaven. I would also like to hear the views of the non mormons on this board since I dont know a whole heck of alot about what they believe heaven will have in store for us.

   You can find apostles and prophets disagreeing on the topic of progression between kingdoms all the way back to the days of Joseph Smith. Lorenzo Snow and Brigham Young seemed to believe that eternal progression was possible between kingdoms, while Joseph Fielding Smith and Spencer W Kimball seemed to believe the exact opposite. 

      I'm going to give you my personal opinion, but I warn you, if you take heart medication, you might want to stop reading now, learning about the inner workings of my brain can be hazardous to your health😁😁. I personally think there's no progression between kingdoms. I think heaven is set up much like a city municipality, God being the mayor, the spirits in the celestial kingdom being the department supervisors, the terrestrial spirits being middle management and the telestial spirits being the worker bee's, all working in harmony to keep Gods collection of worlds turning and running like well oiled machines. Think about it, this earth we're on is constantly changing. There's a good chance that what we're taught in the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms isn't about eternal progression at all, it could be the inner workings if everything God has created and how to help maintain them. There's no way this world runs itself. Maybe there's different departments in the lower kingdoms that your assigned to, like the marine department that maintains anything to do with the ocean. The atmosphere department, the mammal department, the reptile department, I personally would like to be in charge of the gravity department, because I still have no idea how in the hell gravity works. I think there's a really good chance that right now, there's 1000s of spirits working in harmony in the gravity department of this earth, to keep our feet stuck to the ground so we dont float away. Thank you gravity department. Who knows,  they could even be in the middle of the earth as far as we know🤣. If any of you want to find out, I'll buy you a shovel and have it shipped to you, as long as you promise to start digging as soon as you receive it and report back as soon as you get there 😁. 

     I think there's progression in the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms,  but that progress is inside the kingdom, not transferred to the next higher kingdom. I think a celestial government that is overseen by God is way more complex than what we ever actually think about. The amount of science involved in making everything you see on this earth and everything you dont see, like gravity, is 1000 times more complex than we could ever imagine.  I think we're sent here to be tested so God can see who can be trusted to be put in management positions, to share some of the responsibility in running a universe. That doesn't mean terrestrial and telestial spirits aren't important, actually, its probably just the opposite.

      I would love your opinion, especially non mormons, I would really like to know what you see heaven being like.

I think there is some merit to the "department" mentality.  Joseph Smith said that becoming like our Father in heaven is like climbing a ladder... we keep taking a step up until eventually we are pretty much exactly like him and can do what he can do and does,

I enjoy gardening and landscaping so I'd like to eventually learn everything about all of the plants that will grow well wherever my home is when I settle down in heaven.  I'd want to eliminate all of the weeds somehow and allow only the plants I would want to grow.  So I suppose I would also need to learn all about soil and how to develop a healthy loam.  And then once I learn all of that or get well enough into it I might expand into learning about all the atmosphere to get all of the plants watered on a good schedule.  Where I live now it rains a lot during the day and I think it would be better if the rain fell only during the night, or with a sprinkler system that watered only at night, maybe just before dawn.  And if I wanted to allow for snow, which I suppose I would during the winter season, I would want to allow for melting sometimes and avoid long periods of freezing. 0And then once I learned about all of that I would probably want to learn all about all of the animals that would live well in that area. And maybe how to work with stone, particularly granite and marble and quartz.  And then once I got all of that down I'd probably want to expand into different regions where soil conditions are different than I would be accustomed to in my home area.  Like in deserts with sand, and artic conditions with ice and a LOT of snow.  Until eventually I learned everything about how to sustain and support life on an entire planet.  And then I'd probably move on to other, similar planets, and then to completely different kinds of planets.  And then, hmm, what else would I want to learn about after learning about all of those things, and while I was also continuing to learn about how to support and provide for my own family?  Hmm, I'm drawing a blank now but I suppose I'll figure out what else I need to learn once I eventually get to that point.

 

[Ahab]

On 1/3/2021 at 5:06 PM, AtlanticMike said:

Thank you for the advice. As for the dog, I dont have a Boston or a Frenchy,  its actually a album cover of a ban called Seether. Rock on✊🤣

You expect us to take you seriously when you listen to people like this???

[AtlanticMike]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

You expect us to take you seriously when you listen to people like this???

With that one question,  you explain perfectly, why the church will find it hard to gain members in the future. You said, "people like this", real Christian of you. 

[Stargazer]

On 1/1/2021 at 2:46 PM, AtlanticMike said:

In my last thread, (damnation in the terrestrial kingdom), the topic of eternal progression kept popping up. So I'm starting this thread so we can discuss the topic of eternal progression and find out if people believe in progression between kingdoms of heaven. I would also like to hear the views of the non mormons on this board since I dont know a whole heck of alot about what they believe heaven will have in store for us.

   You can find apostles and prophets disagreeing on the topic of progression between kingdoms all the way back to the days of Joseph Smith. Lorenzo Snow and Brigham Young seemed to believe that eternal progression was possible between kingdoms, while Joseph Fielding Smith and Spencer W Kimball seemed to believe the exact opposite. 

      I'm going to give you my personal opinion, but I warn you, if you take heart medication, you might want to stop reading now, learning about the inner workings of my brain can be hazardous to your health😁😁. I personally think there's no progression between kingdoms. I think heaven is set up much like a city municipality, God being the mayor, the spirits in the celestial kingdom being the department supervisors, the terrestrial spirits being middle management and the telestial spirits being the worker bee's, all working in harmony to keep Gods collection of worlds turning and running like well oiled machines. Think about it, this earth we're on is constantly changing. There's a good chance that what we're taught in the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms isn't about eternal progression at all, it could be the inner workings if everything God has created and how to help maintain them. There's no way this world runs itself. Maybe there's different departments in the lower kingdoms that your assigned to, like the marine department that maintains anything to do with the ocean. The atmosphere department, the mammal department, the reptile department, I personally would like to be in charge of the gravity department, because I still have no idea how in the hell gravity works. I think there's a really good chance that right now, there's 1000s of spirits working in harmony in the gravity department of this earth, to keep our feet stuck to the ground so we dont float away. Thank you gravity department. Who knows,  they could even be in the middle of the earth as far as we know🤣. If any of you want to find out, I'll buy you a shovel and have it shipped to you, as long as you promise to start digging as soon as you receive it and report back as soon as you get there 😁. 

     I think there's progression in the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms,  but that progress is inside the kingdom, not transferred to the next higher kingdom. I think a celestial government that is overseen by God is way more complex than what we ever actually think about. The amount of science involved in making everything you see on this earth and everything you dont see, like gravity, is 1000 times more complex than we could ever imagine.  I think we're sent here to be tested so God can see who can be trusted to be put in management positions, to share some of the responsibility in running a universe. That doesn't mean terrestrial and telestial spirits aren't important, actually, its probably just the opposite.

      I would love your opinion, especially non mormons, I would really like to know what you see heaven being like.

I had to laugh at the danger of your brain! I could well warn about the danger of mine!

As it happens, I agree (or mostly agree) with Spencer Kimball and Joseph Fielding Smith that there will be no advancement between kingdoms. Explanation below.

But why would the opinion of a non-mormon be at all interesting, who could potentially be an Atheist, or non-Christian, or Christian but only believes in heaven or hell? It would be like asking the opinion of a flat-earther about the diameter of the earth's sphere. 

There can be no migration from the Telestial Kingdom to the Terrestrial because those in the Telestial have paid for their own sins by suffering the fires of hell -- the same suffering the Savior endured, because they rejected Christ. After their resurrection, so cannot now claim him, because they have knowledge, and have faith no longer.

There can be no migration from the Terrestrial to the Celestial because they were not valiant in the testimony of Jesus (DC 76:79) "These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God." How can one be valiant after the Resurrection, when one no longer has faith, but has knowledge?

I might allow a limited migration from the Terrestrial to the Celestial, but only to the two lower tiers of the Celestial. This is because those in the Terrestrial would not have (or would have lost) a temple marriage sealing, and the highest tier of the Celestial requires eternal marriage.

Of course, all of the above is my opinion. As you say, the various authorities disagree.

[AtlanticMike]

10 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I had to laugh at the danger of your brain! I could well warn about the danger of mine!

As it happens, I agree (or mostly agree) with Spencer Kimball and Joseph Fielding Smith that there will be no advancement between kingdoms. Explanation below.

But why would the opinion of a non-mormon be at all interesting, who could potentially be an Atheist, or non-Christian, or Christian but only believes in heaven or hell? It would be like asking the opinion of a flat-earther about the diameter of the earth's sphere. 

There can be no migration from the Telestial Kingdom to the Terrestrial because those in the Telestial have paid for their own sins by suffering the fires of hell -- the same suffering the Savior endured, because they rejected Christ. After their resurrection, so cannot now claim him, because they have knowledge, and have faith no longer.

There can be no migration from the Terrestrial to the Celestial because they were not valiant in the testimony of Jesus (DC 76:79) "These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God." How can one be valiant after the Resurrection, when one no longer has faith, but has knowledge?

I might allow a limited migration from the Terrestrial to the Celestial, but only to the two lower tiers of the Celestial. This is because those in the Terrestrial would not have (or would have lost) a temple marriage sealing, and the highest tier of the Celestial requires eternal marriage.

Of course, all of the above is my opinion. As you say, the various authorities disagree.

Stargazer, I love learning from people who dont think like me. You never wonder what other individuals think heaven will be like?

[AtlanticMike]

Ahab! Before you posted that picture of the band Seether,  did you realize they might be someone jesus would hang out with? He did make it a priority to hang out with sinners.

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

I had to laugh at the danger of your brain! I could well warn about the danger of mine!

As it happens, I agree (or mostly agree) with Spencer Kimball and Joseph Fielding Smith that there will be no advancement between kingdoms. Explanation below.

But why would the opinion of a non-mormon be at all interesting, who could potentially be an Atheist, or non-Christian, or Christian but only believes in heaven or hell? It would be like asking the opinion of a flat-earther about the diameter of the earth's sphere. 

There can be no migration from the Telestial Kingdom to the Terrestrial because those in the Telestial have paid for their own sins by suffering the fires of hell -- the same suffering the Savior endured, because they rejected Christ. After their resurrection, so cannot now claim him, because they have knowledge, and have faith no longer.

There can be no migration from the Terrestrial to the Celestial because they were not valiant in the testimony of Jesus (DC 76:79) "These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God." How can one be valiant after the Resurrection, when one no longer has faith, but has knowledge?

I might allow a limited migration from the Terrestrial to the Celestial, but only to the two lower tiers of the Celestial. This is because those in the Terrestrial would not have (or would have lost) a temple marriage sealing, and the highest tier of the Celestial requires eternal marriage.

Of course, all of the above is my opinion. As you say, the various authorities disagree.

I believe the time may have come for you to carefully reread and deeply ponder Doctrine and Covenants 76.. It’s interesting to see you believe men can obtain salvation in one of God’s mansions of heavenly glory  by their own works and without having to receive forgiveness through the atoning sacrifice of Christ. 

It’s also interesting to see that you believe there in no need for faith in heaven even though the Apostle Paul testified it’s absolutely essential for faith, hope and charity to endure forever. 

Edited January 6, 2021 by teddyaware

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

There can be no migration from the Telestial Kingdom to the Terrestrial because those in the Telestial have paid for their own sins by suffering the fires of hell -- the same suffering the Savior endured, because they rejected Christ. After their resurrection, so cannot now claim him, because they have knowledge, and have faith no longer.

You seem to treating the Kingdoms like national borders.  I am not so convinced they are so far apart geographically.

You also seem to be making the assumption that the only path from Telestial to Terrestrial involves having Christ pay for sins instead of paying personally, the means vs the end.  Instead I would suggest that in the multiple infinite eternities ahead a continually progressing being would unavoidably reach a higher level of glory than where they began.

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There can be no migration from the Terrestrial to the Celestial because they were not valiant in the testimony of Jesus (DC 76:79) "These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God." How can one be valiant after the Resurrection, when one no longer has faith, but has knowledge?

 

You again assume these levels of glory are fixed conditions.  Yes, they may never be able to enter the Celestial glory reserved for the valiant in this life.  However once again an continually eternally progressing Terrestrial being would unavoidably eventually reach a level of perfection we call Celestial.  It just wouldn't have to be the original Celestial community.

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I might allow a limited migration from the Terrestrial to the Celestial, but only to the two lower tiers of the Celestial. This is because those in the Terrestrial would not have (or would have lost) a temple marriage sealing, and the highest tier of the Celestial requires eternal marriage.

I am not so convinced that in an infinite future that no future opportunity to be married will be made available.  God's work and glory and an infinite atonement don't come to an abrupt and final end at the resurrection.  It's not a course of study, pass/fail.  It's an eternal journey for all intelligent beings. That doesn't end with our resurrection assignments.  Else ministering to lower Kingdoms would serve no purpose.

[Stargazer]

59 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Stargazer, I love learning from people who dont think like me. You never wonder what other individuals think heaven will be like?

Of course! But most of them seem to think heaven will be just like here, only with better housing and food. Which is a failure of vision.

[Stargazer]

27 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

I believe the time may have come for you to carefully reread and deeply ponder Doctrine and Covenants 76.. It’s interesting to see  you believe men can obtain salvation in one of God’s mansions of heavenly glory  by their own works and without having to receive forgiveness through the atoning sacrifice of Christ. 

It’s also interesting to see that you believe there in no need for faith in heaven even though the Apostle Paul testified it’s absolutely essential for faith, hope and charity to endure forever. 

I've made a particular study of DC 76, over decades.

And you do not seem to understand that those who must suffer for their sins (read DC 19!) are not worthy of Christ's atonement because they rejected him. They are not saved from that suffering. As Christ Himself said in DC 19:16,17:

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

They benefit from Christ's resurrection, yes, but not his atonement. And because they kept their first and their second estate (i.e. are not Sons of Perdition), they qualify for a kingdom of glory. I should say that they benefit from His atonement in that there is a kingdom of glory for them, which otherwise they would not have, but not to the extent of being saved from that suffering. They must atone themselves for their own sins, which suffering is terrible:

Dc 19:18 - Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink

As for faith...

Of course there is no need for faith in heaven! Because all who enter it have had the veil removed from their eyes, and have knowledge. It happened to the Brother of Jared while yet in mortality:

Ether 3:19 - And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.

Paul can say what he likes (or are you misquoting him?), but in heaven you have knowledge, not faith.

Let me make this clear. If you owe me $10, I might have faith you will pay me back (if I didn't have that faith I wouldn't have loaned it to you). But the moment you repay me I have knowledge, and leave faith behind.

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

With that one question,  you explain perfectly, why the church will find it hard to gain members in the future. You said, "people like this", real Christian of you. 

Perhaps he was joking?