Eternal Progression

[Stargazer]

43 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

You seem to treating the Kingdoms like national borders.  I am not so convinced they are so far apart geographically.

You also seem to be making the assumption that the only path from Telestial to Terrestrial involves having Christ pay for sins instead of paying personally, the means vs the end.  Instead I would suggest that in the multiple infinite eternities ahead a continually progressing being would unavoidably reach a higher level of glory than where they began.

You again assume these levels of glory are fixed conditions.  Yes, they may never be able to enter the Celestial glory reserved for the valiant in this life.  However once again an continually eternally progressing Terrestrial being would unavoidably eventually reach a level of perfection we call Celestial.  It just wouldn't have to be the original Celestial community.

I am not so convinced that in an infinite future that no future opportunity to be married will be made available.  God's work and glory and an infinite atonement don't come to an abrupt and final end at the resurrection.  It's not a course of study, pass/fail.  It's an eternal journey for all intelligent beings. That doesn't end with our resurrection assignments.  Else ministering to lower Kingdoms would serve no purpose.

It is all very well to imagine that things will be as you say. While you may in the end be right, after all knowledge is revealed, I can quote scripture to back up what I have said, but you cannot.

I'd actually like to believe that things will be as you say, but I'd also like to believe that we can travel faster than light. Which, according to present physics at least, we cannot.

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

It is all very well to imagine that things will be as you say. While you may in the end be right, after all knowledge is revealed, I can quote scripture to back up what I have said, but you cannot.

I disagree.  What you are doing is using scripture to set limits that may not be meant by the scripture.  I can use scripture just as easily to back up my thoughts too.  Scripture can be used to back up many many ideas.  It's pretty condescending to claim a scriptural high ground.

I consider interpretations that limit progress to be incorrect.  You would likely consider my interpretation incorrect.  But don't claim your view is the only valid one.

[teddyaware]

2 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I've made a particular study of DC 76, over decades.

And you do not seem to understand that those who must suffer for their sins (read DC 19!) are not worthy of Christ's atonement because they rejected him. They are not saved from that suffering. As Christ Himself said in DC 19:16,17:

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

They benefit from Christ's resurrection, yes, but not his atonement. And because they kept their first and their second estate (i.e. are not Sons of Perdition), they qualify for a kingdom of glory. I should say that they benefit from His atonement in that there is a kingdom of glory for them, which otherwise they would not have, but not to the extent of being saved from that suffering. They must atone themselves for their own sins, which suffering is terrible:

Dc 19:18 - Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink

As for faith...

Of course there is no need for faith in heaven! Because all who enter it have had the veil removed from their eyes, and have knowledge. It happened to the Brother of Jared while yet in mortality:

Ether 3:19 - And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.

Paul can say what he likes (or are you misquoting him?), but in heaven you have knowledge, not faith.

Let me make this clear. If you owe me $10, I might have faith you will pay me back (if I didn't have that faith I wouldn't have loaned it to you). But the moment you repay me I have knowledge, and leave faith behind.

Looks like it’s time for you to go back to the drawing board...

“Faith is the principle of action in all intelligent beings.” (Joseph Smith, Lectures on Faith, 1:9)

“But faith is not only the principle of action, but of power also, in all intelligent beings, whether in heaven or on earth.” (Joseph Smith, Lectures on Faith, 1:13-14)

Also, there’s a very, very big difference between suffering for your own sins to learn some humility and making an infinite and eternal sacrifice for your own sins, something the Book of Mormon powerfully testifies only the infinite and eternal God can do.

 

[AtlanticMike]

30 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Perhaps he was joking?

Well, if he was, that would be funny as hell, and the perfect picture for a joke. Again,  proving I have no idea how to read people on this board. 

[JLHPROF]

44 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

As for faith...

Of course there is no need for faith in heaven! Because all who enter it have had the veil removed from their eyes, and have knowledge. It happened to the Brother of Jared while yet in mortality:

Ether 3:19 - And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.

Paul can say what he likes (or are you misquoting him?), but in heaven you have knowledge, not faith.

Let me make this clear. If you owe me $10, I might have faith you will pay me back (if I didn't have that faith I wouldn't have loaned it to you). But the moment you repay me I have knowledge, and leave faith behind.

I think you are wrong about faith.  It is not merely the opposite of knowledge.

Lectures on faith

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God: so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.  By this we understand that the principle of power, which existed in the bosom of God, by which the worlds were framed, was faith; and that it is by reason of this principle of power, existing in the Deity, that all created things exist—so that all things in heaven, on earth, or under the earth, exist by reason of faith, as it existed in HIM. Had it not been for the principle of faith the worlds would never have been framed, neither would man have been formed of the dust—it is the principle by which Jehovah works, and through which he exercises power over all temporal, as well as eternal things. Take this principle or attribute, (for it is an attribute) from the Deity and he would cease to exist.

[Ahab]

17 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

With that one question,  you explain perfectly, why the church will find it hard to gain members in the future. You said, "people like this", real Christian of you. 

You may want to work on your sense of sensing when other people are using some sense of humor in their comments.  I consider developing my sense of humor to be a survival tool of sorts and almost essential to have on this planet.

I mean, did you see the face on the main guy in the band there in that picture?  Do you think he even wanted to be taken seriously at that moment?  And the other 3 guys probably did not intend to be taken seriously either.

In my experience when 4 guys get together to sing and play music they at least want to see a smile on the face of their audience.

[Ahab]

15 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Well, if he was, that would be funny as hell, and the perfect picture for a joke. Again,  proving I have no idea how to read people on this board. 

When in doubt, be charitable and use your sense of humor.  Or just laugh.