Are the inheritors of the Terrestrial kingdom damned?

[AtlanticMike]

4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I don't know you or your past, but waking up in an alley covered by your own ... discharges... is not all that much fun.  🤢

Don't know if you have flown into LA in the last couple of years but surrounding the airport there are billboards advertising legal marijuana.  

This ain't Utah!!

Ha ha!! I know I'm confusing, I've actually never tried pot and never drank either. But I've smelled alot of both, does that count😁. I actually have alot of fun hanging around people who smoke pot, most of the guys I hire actually smoke pot, I have an eye for being able to tell if someone is high. I pay to much money for liability and workers comp to have someone fall off a roof because they just smoked a joint. I kicked a guy off a job a few months back because you could smell him from a mile away. I asked him when the last time he smoked and he told me it was atleast a couple days ago, problem was he still had the joint tucked behind his ear. Never been to LA, but I'm sure it would be fun.

[AtlanticMike]

30 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't believe in lost exaltation, only delayed exaltation.

Progression is eternal.  I think verses interpreted as permanent barriers are misinterpreted.

Honest question here, in 3-2-1. If we believe in delayed exaltation, wouldn't that mean we're universalist? Your giving me alot to think about with that statement. 

[Stargazer]

On 12/14/2020 at 12:14 AM, teddyaware said:

It doesn’t at all satisfy the demands of divine justice for only an infinite and eternal sacrifice of the eternal God, not a fallen man, could successfully pay such an unimaginably high price.

Well, you and I are going to disagree at bit about this.

What you have written seems to suggest you believe that Christ's sacrifice pays part of the cost of an unrepentant soul's sins, because if an unrepentant soul cannot pay for all of his sins, then for justice to be satisfied, someone, presumably Christ, has to pay what's left. Because justice cannot be denied. But that isn't what Christ suffered for -- unrepentant souls have to come up with all they owe, all by themselves.

DC 19:16-17

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I

What makes Christ's suffering and self-sacrifice powerful enough to be able to stand in justice for all who would repent is this: he had no personal sin of his own to expiate. Only a sinless being's sacrifice can satisfy the demands of justice for anyone else. Only a sinless being's sacrifice can be infinite, because he suffers without having deserved it. He voluntarily took it upon himself so that he could offer an exemption to those who would repent.  Because his sinless suffering gave him power to both resurrect all and to atone for all who would repent.

But if an unrepentant being rejects Christ's suffering, he must suffer for his own sins, and it will be just as terrible as Christ's was. By so doing, justice will have taken its bite out of him, and he will have paid his own price. But paying his own price makes him ineligible for salvation. He is not saved. He cannot enter in where Christ would be his minister, because he rejected Christ. And so he finds himself in the Telestial Kingdom. 

What salvation from sin means is simply this: because of faith, repentance and baptism we are made eligible to let Christ's sacrifice stand in for what would have been our punishment.

On 12/14/2020 at 12:14 AM, teddyaware said:

The suffering of the wicked in hell is calculated to break down the arrogance and pride of evil, rebellious sinners until they are finally able to feel enough genuine remorse for their sins to want to repent with truly broken hearts and truly contrite spirits.

Those who have remorse only because they suffer are not deserving of the fruits of repentance. And those who have rejected Christ must suffer, as it says in DC 19:17.

What you are describing here is Catholic doctrine. That's what Catholic doctrine calls Purgatory.  But the only purgatory is the suffering that unrepentant souls must endure because they ultimately rejected Christ. But that suffering doesn't clean them; only Christ's blood cleans, because it cleans only the repentant. Those who have not accepted Christ and repented by the end of time granted to them in the Spirit World, cannot be saved.

On 12/14/2020 at 12:14 AM, teddyaware said:

D&C 76 calls this experience of the wicked suffering in hell “the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God,” and it’s within that winepress of eternal vengeance that Christ metes out divine justice upon his enemies until they awaken from the “sleep of death” and receive forgiveness and a measure of salvation at his merciful hand.

Which is, again, Catholic doctrine. That there is a winepress of wrath is absolutely certain. But it does not lead to salvation; it leads only to having satisfied the demands of justice. Salvation is only for the repentant. Salvation is not having to suffer for one's own sins, and it is only open to those who repent. And it is only open to those who have accepted Christ before they are judged, and before they have suffered.

Those who have rejected Christ and suffer for their own sins must suffer as Christ suffered. As He Himself said: "...even as I".  Which He goes on to describe:

DC 19:18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink

This suffering is so terrible that a mortal being cannot bear it and remain living. This is why it must be suffered by an immortal being, who cannot die and thus short-circuit the suffering. This is also why Christ had to have the Eternal Father as His Father in the flesh, because only a being capable of not dying could endure this suffering while remaining in the body. On the other hand, through his mother, Mary, Christ also had the ability to die, to simply depart at his initiative. He was the only human ever born upon the earth with the simultaneous capability of living through any and all suffering, and of voluntarily just giving up his life at any moment of his choosing. The great wonder and blessing of it all is that despite not needing to suffer for sin, he took the suffering upon himself voluntarily, and despite the enormity of it, refused to die until He recognized that "It is finished."

DC 19:19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

But those who reject Christ suffer what Christ suffered, and once they are finished they have paid the price. They inherit the Telestial kingdom, and because they suffered for their own sins, they cannot progress higher. 

In fact there is no verse in DC 76 that even hints that anyone can progress upwards out of either the Telestial nor Terrestrial kingdom. It's reasonable to speculate that someone who inherited the Terrestrial kingdom could progress to the Celestial. Because they, after all, accepted the Lord Jesus Christ. But not the Telestial. If it were possible, then it would be true that Christ's atonement was unnecessary -- because they would have done it themselves, without Christ. And as Jesus Himself once said, 

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the away, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I believe you and I have had this discussion before, and I didn't convince you then, and I am sure I will not convince you now. But it won't matter in the end, because the important thing is accepting Christ and obeying Him. Eventually we will all be shown where we might have been in error over the details. As long as we get the important things right, we're fine.

I respect your opinion, believe me. But I have to answer what I believe is incorrect doctrine about the Atonement. Because it is most precious and wonderful.

[Ahab]

5 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

... if an unrepentant being rejects Christ's suffering, he must suffer for his own sins, and it will be just as terrible as Christ's was. By so doing, justice will have taken its bite out of him, and he will have paid his own price. But paying his own price makes him ineligible for salvation. He is not saved. He cannot enter in where Christ would be his minister, because he rejected Christ. And so he finds himself in the Telestial Kingdom. 

What salvation from sin means is simply this: because of faith, repentance and baptism we are made eligible to let Christ's sacrifice stand in for what would have been our punishment.

 

That is a very good explanation but one more detail should be clarified here:  Is it salvation (to any degree) or damnation (a form of punishment) when a person is judged to be worthy of only the Telestial kingdom?

[why me]

Emma is just fine. She is with Joseph and the rest of her children. We need to consider the big picture. She married Joseph and suffered for it and she stayed with him. She lost her home a few times,,,,constantly on the go with her husband and other members. Suffering along the way. However, she did love the Kirkland Joseph more than the Nauvoo Joseph and wished to have that Joseph back. But still she stayed with him because she believed in her husband's mission and in the book of mormon. She would have known if he was a fraud and a liar about the book. And she would have spilled the beans when Brigham was going to take the saints westward. If this was all a fraud, and she kept her mouth shut and allowed her friends and other members to go with Brigham..well....she would be absolutely evil. But my guess is that she knew her husband's mission and believed he was a prophet. She is in celestial glory.

Edited December 17, 2020 by why me

[JLHPROF]

On 12/17/2020 at 2:25 PM, AtlanticMike said:

Honest question here, in 3-2-1. If we believe in delayed exaltation, wouldn't that mean we're universalist? Your giving me alot to think about with that statement. 

Not universalist since that eliminates much of both agency and justice.  It also ignores perdition.

But the idea that a Terrestrial being can never be Celestialized or that a single Celestial person in eternity can never reach exaltation through future union is too limiting on God's work, the atonement and progression.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 12/17/2020 at 1:21 PM, AtlanticMike said:

Nice talking to you sir! And thank you for responding. I agree with you that you dont have to feel damned in the terrestrial kingdom because I do believe its 1000 times better there, then what we're living now. And I certainly dont feel damned as I live my daily life, actually, I feel blessed. But if exaltation is our ultimate goal as mormons, then losing exaltation plus the ability to live with our family has to be some sort of punishment. If reaching the terrestrial kingdom doesn't  mean we're being punished, then let's drink and be merry right now, I'll bring the weed and we can talk about how much fun you and I are going to have in the terrestrial kingdom.😁 just kidding. You see my point though, Everything we do as mormons is for exaltation, everything, there's nothing in our teachings that says we should settle for 2nd best.    

Actually second best is usually pretty good, whether we are taking tests in school, or running a race.  I'll take the bronze or silver medal anytime.  Win, place, or show is not an also ran.  Plus, what does it say about us if we do good only to win a prize?  Some of us do good because we are altruistic and have love in our hearts, not because we are earning exaltation.  Martin Luther hated indulgences for a very good reason -- you can't buy a stairway to heaven.  All those secret Santas out there do good because it delights someone, not because it gets us points with God.  What did Jesus say about those who do good ostentatiously?  The world gives them a secular reward here and now.  Isn't it better to be humble, not self-seeking, and to lay up for ourselves treasure in heaven?

[mfbukowski]

On 12/17/2020 at 12:21 PM, AtlanticMike said:

Nice talking to you sir! And thank you for responding. I agree with you that you dont have to feel damned in the terrestrial kingdom because I do believe its 1000 times better there, then what we're living now. And I certainly dont feel damned as I live my daily life, actually, I feel blessed. But if exaltation is our ultimate goal as mormons, then losing exaltation plus the ability to live with our family has to be some sort of punishment. If reaching the terrestrial kingdom doesn't  mean we're being punished, then let's drink and be merry right now, I'll bring the weed and we can talk about how much fun you and I are going to have in the terrestrial kingdom.😁 just kidding. You see my point though, Everything we do as mormons is for exaltation, everything, there's nothing in our teachings that says we should settle for 2nd best.

     

One other thing here, just realize that creedal Christians call - though of course they CAN end up being exalted - the lower two levels "heaven".

They would not even dream or understand to bring up the question you raise.   One  might content oneself thinking of it that way.  Virtually everyone will go to a "heaven" which is - as you say- a thousand times better than here.

My advice is don't worry about it.  Be the BEST you can be and have a better life here for doing so- and let the Boss sort it all out on the other side, and don't worry about it.

He will give you the absolute MOST that you can handle in joy!!

Sometimes when I am in a room with the sun shining in the windows, painted white as many artists lofts and galleries are, it is almost too bright for my eyes to tolerate and it becomes almost annoying and I want to draw the drapes or something to tone DOWN the light level streaming in.

I think it would be something like that to end up with TOO MUCH light!! 

God will give you just as much as you are prepared for!

[AtlanticMike]

16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Actually second best is usually pretty good, whether we are taking tests in school, or running a race.  I'll take the bronze or silver medal anytime.  Win, place, or show is not an also ran.  Plus, what does it say about us if we do good only to win a prize?  Some of us do good because we are altruistic and have love in our hearts, not because we are earning exaltation.  Martin Luther hated indulgences for a very good reason -- you can't buy a stairway to heaven.  All those secret Santas out there do good because it delights someone, not because it gets us points with God.  What did Jesus say about those who do good ostentatiously?  The world gives them a secular reward here and now.  Isn't it better to be humble, not self-seeking, and to lay up for ourselves treasure in heaven?

I profoundly disagree! In this case 2nd isnt that great, it's far from great compared to 1st place. There's not alot we know about the 3 kingdoms but we do know god compared them to the stars, moon and the sun. So if your willing to do an experiment I would ask you to go outside on the next clear night and look up, if you see the stars (telestial kingdom), see how your able to look at them till your heart is content? They are wonderful! Now find the moon (terrestrial kingdom), see how your able to look at it till your heart is content? It's also wonderful! Both the stars (3rd place) and the moon (2nd place)are wonderful and fun to look at. Now to finish the experiment Robert, go to bed and wake up in the morning, when the sun is at its highest point in the sky, go outside and look at the sun, how did that work out for you?? Now you know difference between the 2 lower kingdoms and the celestial kingdom. God laid it out perfectly clear. The celestial kingdom outshines the other 2 so much, you cant even look at it, you cant even imagine what it offers us if we make it there. 

     As I've said before, if 2nd best is good enough,  bring the 60,000 missionaries home, there's no need for them to be out there. Nothing in our doctrine says we should strive for 2nd place.

 

[Ahab]

17 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

...what does it say about us if we do good only to win a prize?  Some of us do good because we are altruistic and have love in our hearts, not because we are earning exaltation.  Martin Luther hated indulgences for a very good reason -- you can't buy a stairway to heaven.  All those secret Santas out there do good because it delights someone, not because it gets us points with God.  What did Jesus say about those who do good ostentatiously?  The world gives them a secular reward here and now.  Isn't it better to be humble, not self-seeking, and to lay up for ourselves treasure in heaven?

Which people do you suggest we be like?  The ones who are only pretty good, 2nd best, or the best kind of people we can possibly be?

[JLHPROF]

22 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Which people do you suggest we be like?  The ones who are only pretty good, 2nd best, or the best kind of people we can possibly be?

The Gods.  We are in a constant state of motion towards exaltation.  Godhood.  (The office, not the species).

[Ahab]

6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The Gods.  We are in a constant state of motion towards exaltation.  Godhood.  (The office, not the species).

There is no office called "God".  Or if there is it isn't mentioned in the scriptures.  And the office in my house with "God" written on a plaque on the door is not what I am saying doesn't exist.

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, Ahab said:

There is no office called "God".  Or if there is it isn't mentioned in the scriptures. 

Sure there is.
D&C 132:20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.

Definitely an office.

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

Sure there is.
D&C 132:20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.

Definitely an office.

No.  Just a figure of speech, a word Joseph used to refer to people who are fully exalted. Not an office of the priesthood, just the authority to do all that our Father wants us to do.

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, Ahab said:

No.  Just a figure of speech, a word Joseph used to refer to people who are fully exalted. Not an office of the priesthood, just the authority to do all that our Father wants us to do.

You are entitled to that opinion.  I see ample evidence that God is an office (in addition to other usage).

[Robert F. Smith]

13 hours ago, Ahab said:

Which people do you suggest we be like?  The ones who are only pretty good, 2nd best, or the best kind of people we can possibly be?

We should never expect perfection in this life.  That only leads people to sacrifice the good on the altar of perfection.  All we can do is the best that we can and repent of all the rest, a daily need at best.

The parent who demands As from his kid, in a world in which not everyone is a star, is merely setting that kid up for long term depression and failure.  Not everyone has a high IQ, and not everyone is the star athlete.  Some of us are just ordinary.  Hard as we try, all we can do is get a C.  God loves us anyhow, even if our parents don't. 

[Robert F. Smith]

14 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

I profoundly disagree! In this case 2nd isnt that great, it's far from great compared to 1st place. There's not alot we know about the 3 kingdoms but we do know god compared them to the stars, moon and the sun. So if your willing to do an experiment I would ask you to go outside on the next clear night and look up, if you see the stars (telestial kingdom), see how your able to look at them till your heart is content? They are wonderful! Now find the moon (terrestrial kingdom), see how your able to look at it till your heart is content? It's also wonderful! Both the stars (3rd place) and the moon (2nd place)are wonderful and fun to look at. Now to finish the experiment Robert, go to bed and wake up in the morning, when the sun is at its highest point in the sky, go outside and look at the sun, how did that work out for you?? Now you know difference between the 2 lower kingdoms and the celestial kingdom. God laid it out perfectly clear. The celestial kingdom outshines the other 2 so much, you cant even look at it, you cant even imagine what it offers us if we make it there. 

     As I've said before, if 2nd best is good enough,  bring the 60,000 missionaries home, there's no need for them to be out there. Nothing in our doctrine says we should strive for 2nd place.

Always let your conscience be your guide:  If you have done your best and failed, that should be no surprise, and you shouldn't feel depressed.   You made a valiant effort against great odds.  God doesn't mind at all that you failed.  His love is unconditional, like the love of a mother.  He saw you try and that is what matters to Him.  You need never win a race.  Only do your best.  That is enough for God.  His Son took care of any infirmities we might have.  If we reach up as high as we can, He will reach the rest of the way down to lift us up.

A sincere guy who serves a mission and has no baptisms might otherwise consider himself a failure.  Only by profoundly shallow standards is he in fact a failure.  Unrighteous judgment would consign Forrest Gump to an unexalted status.  Fortunately, God is a righteous judge.  He judges by the heart, not by outward appearance.

[AtlanticMike]

1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Always let your conscience be your guide:  If you have done your best and failed, that should be no surprise, and you shouldn't feel depressed.   You made a valiant effort against great odds.  God doesn't mind at all that you failed.  His love is unconditional, like the love of a mother.  He saw you try and that is what matters to Him.  You need never win a race.  Only do your best.  That is enough for God.  His Son took care of any infirmities we might have.  If we reach up as high as we can, He will reach the rest of the way down to lift us up.

A sincere guy who serves a mission and has no baptisms might otherwise consider himself a failure.  Only by profoundly shallow standards is he in fact a failure.  Unrighteous judgment would consign Forrest Gump to an unexalted status.  Fortunately, God is a righteous judge.  He judges by the heart, not by outward appearance.

 

16 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

We should never expect perfection in this life.  That only leads people to sacrifice the good on the altar of perfection.  All we can do is the best that we can and repent of all the rest, a daily need at best.

The parent who demands As from his kid, in a world in which not everyone is a star, is merely setting that kid up for long term depression and failure.  Not everyone has a high IQ, and not everyone is the star athlete.  Some of us are just ordinary.  Hard as we try, all we can do is get a C.  God loves us anyhow, even if our parents don't. 

 

23 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

We should never expect perfection in this life.  That only leads people to sacrifice the good on the altar of perfection.  All we can do is the best that we can and repent of all the rest, a daily need at best.

The parent who demands As from his kid, in a world in which not everyone is a star, is merely setting that kid up for long term depression and failure.  Not everyone has a high IQ, and not everyone is the star athlete.  Some of us are just ordinary.  Hard as we try, all we can do is get a C.  God loves us anyhow, even if our parents don't. 

 

[AtlanticMike]

Just now, AtlanticMike said:

 

 

 

Are you related to this guy?

[AtlanticMike]

18 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Always let your conscience be your guide:  If you have done your best and failed, that should be no surprise, and you shouldn't feel depressed.   You made a valiant effort against great odds.  God doesn't mind at all that you failed.  His love is unconditional, like the love of a mother.  He saw you try and that is what matters to Him.  You need never win a race.  Only do your best.  That is enough for God.  His Son took care of any infirmities we might have.  If we reach up as high as we can, He will reach the rest of the way down to lift us up.

A sincere guy who serves a mission and has no baptisms might otherwise consider himself a failure.  Only by profoundly shallow standards is he in fact a failure.  Unrighteous judgment would consign Forrest Gump to an unexalted status.  Fortunately, God is a righteous judge.  He judges by the heart, not by outward appearance.

Again Robert , I profoundly disagree. Just look around you. Everything you enjoy in your nice air conditioned house with light bulbs and internet, cell phones,  running water that doesn't kill you , is all from humans trying to perfect an idea, they could only visualize in their head or on paper. Let's do an experiment again Robert! Look at the closest light bulb. Thomas Edison made 1000 attempts before he perfected the light bulb. No one believed he could do it. Look at your computer,  the first sperry rand computer in the 1950s was so big it had to be stored in a building the size of a house, through the pursuit of perfection, your now holding one in your hand. Your comfortable, cushy life is because humans always strive for perfection, what's scary is when they stop that pursuit. 

[AtlanticMike]

Hi Robert f Smith. I've been thinking alot about what you said this morning about your view of Mormonism, I even showed my wife what you said to see if I'm totally off base in my beliefs. And the first thing she picked up on was that I was totally being an azzhole to you for asking you to do an experiment. And I agree with her, she's usually always right. I'm starting to find out I'm terrible at trying to get my humor to come across through my words on a screen. So I apologize if  my attempt at humor came across as distasteful,  in my defense though, I was laughing the whole time I was writing it😁. 

   Now to my beliefs,  I would like your honest opinion if your willing to critique my view of Mormonism.  I was raised to believe that in the spirit world we were raised by Heavenly parents and the most noble spirits were reserved to come down to protect the gospel in these latter days. They chose us because we are finishers, we will get the job done and they new we will go the extra yard. While here, if we obey the commandments and honor our covenants we will be blessed with eternal life.

     So when I read what you wrote this morning I have to admit,  it's completely foreign to me. I've never settled for second best. I've always taught my children to grab the moon in anything they do in life. Always keep going, never ever stop pursuing your goal. You said this morning, a parent that demands the best out of a kid is merely setting that kid up for depression. I've only experienced the opposite. I work with people that have never one time tried to finish anything, and they are the most depressed people I've ever met. They cant stand their life because they never learned about self worth. 

I think Heavenly Mother and Father expect our best. I dont think they want us to settle for 2nd and rely on the atonement. Yes it's there for us because we all fall short in our goal in protecting the gospel, but they want us to finish no matter how battered or beat up we look when we cross the finish line. Do you think I'm totally off base in my views of Mormonism?

Edited December 22, 2020 by AtlanticMike
Spelling

[Ahab]

6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

We should never expect perfection in this life.  That only leads people to sacrifice the good on the altar of perfection.  All we can do is the best that we can and repent of all the rest, a daily need at best.

The parent who demands As from his kid, in a world in which not everyone is a star, is merely setting that kid up for long term depression and failure.  Not everyone has a high IQ, and not everyone is the star athlete.  Some of us are just ordinary.  Hard as we try, all we can do is get a C.  God loves us anyhow, even if our parents don't. 

I like the way President Hinkley said it.  "Just do the best you can do."  We are not perfect, yet, but we can do the best we can do and our best efforts are good enough for our Father in heaven.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 12/22/2020 at 10:30 AM, AtlanticMike said:

Hi Robert f Smith. I've been thinking alot about what you said this morning about your view of Mormonism, I even showed my wife what you said to see if I'm totally off base in my beliefs. And the first thing she picked up on was that I was totally being an azzhole to you for asking you to do an experiment. And I agree with her, she's usually always right. I'm starting to find out I'm terrible at trying to get my humor to come across through my words on a screen. So I apologize if  my attempt at humor came across as distasteful,  in my defense though, I was laughing the whole time I was writing it😁. 

   Now to my beliefs,  I would like your honest opinion if your willing to critique my view of Mormonism.  I was raised to believe that in the spirit world we were raised by Heavenly parents and the most noble spirits were reserved to come down to protect the gospel in these latter days. They chose us because we are finishers, we will get the job done and they new we will go the extra yard. While here, if we obey the commandments and honor our covenants we will be blessed with eternal life.

     So when I read what you wrote this morning I have to admit,  it's completely foreign to me. I've never settled for second best. I've always taught my children to grab the moon in anything they do in life. Always keep going, never ever stop pursuing your goal. You said this morning, a parent that demands the best out of a kid is merely setting that kid up for depression. I've only experienced the opposite. I work with people that have never one time tried to finish anything, and they are the most depressed people I've ever met. They cant stand their life because they never learned about self worth. 

I think Heavenly Mother and Father expect our best. I dont think they want us to settle for 2nd and rely on the atonement. Yes it's there for us because we all fall short in our goal in protecting the gospel, but they want us to finish no matter how battered or beat up we look when we cross the finish line. Do you think I'm totally off base in my views of Mormonism?

A long time ago, while in the USMC, I was on the base track team.  I was a distance runner, and my specialty was the 2-mile run (which no longer exists).  Our coach was a major, who advised me on how to run, and who made sure I had the right equipment (spike shoes, etc.).  The major didn't care whether I won a race, but only that I ran as well as possible, and never quit.  I went all out, never quit a race, and found it exhilarating.  There was always someone faster than me, but I always placed.  I was satisfied with my performance, and so was the major.  At year's end, at our annual team party in a nice hotel (paid for by Uncle Sam), we all gathered round the piano and sang, while the major played all those old time songs from WW I and II.  It was the brotherhood which mattered most.

I felt the same way years later, out in the field one night with First Force Recon Company (Fleet Marine Force, Pacific).  We had an excellent barbeque, and we celebrated the retirement of a Master Chief (all medical personnel for the USMC are supplied by the Navy) who served with First Force.  The camaraderie was deep, and these were the best of the best.  I was honored to be in good company with the Marine Corps elite.

Doing your best is not the same as being perfect.

[AtlanticMike]

6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

A long time ago, while in the USMC, I was on the base track team.  I was a distance runner, and my specialty was the 2-mile run (which no longer exists).  Our coach was a major, who advised me on how to run, and who made sure I had the right equipment (spike shoes, etc.).  The major didn't care whether I won a race, but only that I ran as well as possible, and never quit.  I went all out, never quit a race, and found it exhilarating.  There was always someone faster than me, but I always placed.  I was satisfied with my performance, and so was the major.  At year's end, at our annual team party in a nice hotel (paid for by Uncle Sam), we all gathered round the piano and sang, while the major played all those old time songs from WW I and II.  It was the brotherhood which mattered most.

I felt the same way years later, out in the field one night with First Force Recon Company (Fleet Marine Force, Pacific).  We had an excellent barbeque, and we celebrated the retirement of a Master Chief (all medical personnel for the USMC are supplied by the Navy) who served with First Force.  The camaraderie was deep, and these were the best of the best.  I was honored to be in good company with the Marine Corps elite.

Doing your best is not the same as being perfect.

Thank you for your service to this great country of ours and for protecting our freedom.

[Stargazer]

9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Force Recon

Oo-RAH!

I was Army, but recognize the eliteness of USMC Force Recon!