Are the inheritors of the Terrestrial kingdom damned?

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

So you're saying that MAYBE there will be progression from lower orders of glory to higher levels of glory if not a definite absolute YES in all cases.  Otherwise what would be the point of trying to teach those with less glory/intelligence how to gain more? 

In light of the Church’s current understanding of the workings of the plan of salvation, as revealed in D&C 76, all we can safely say without incurring the displeasure of the Church leaders is that we have every reason to believe the inhabitants of the lower kingdoms will continue to learn, grow and progress spiritually. However how that continued spiritual progress is going to be manifested remains to be seen.

As you well know, D&C 76, as presently constituted, provides only an incomplete picture of the actual fullness of the depth, breadth and reach of the plan of salvation. But I believe it’s likely that when the complete plan is fully unveiled there will be many surprises that will cause us to marvel at the mercy and liberality of God.

113 This is the end of the vision which we saw, which we were commanded to write while we were yet in the Spirit.
114 But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion;
115 Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter.(D&C 76)

Edited December 29, 2020 by teddyaware

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

So you're saying that MAYBE there will be progression from lower orders of glory to higher levels of glory if not a definite absolute YES in all cases.  Otherwise what would be the point of trying to teach those with less glory/intelligence how to gain more? 

Exactly.  I believe that if we have the ability to learn and progress AND eternity is infinite then a learning and progressing Terrestrial being would unavoidably eventually reach a Celestial level.  I don't think there's a reasonable alternative.

[teddyaware]

4 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Verse 112 also says "And they shall be aservants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end."

Also, 2 Nephi 28:8 seems to warn us against such a doctrine.

I do not get that from the text of Section 76. The people who inherit the Telestial Kingdom would appear to be those who are not repentant and did not avail themselves of the mercies of the Atonememt. When they attain the Telestial Kingdom they have had to suffer fo their own sins that they had not repented of. They are not forgiven but have paid the price before they attain their kingdom. At some point after death, they will also have the veil of the pe-esixtence removed and remember the excitement and hope that I believe we all had prior to coming to this earth.

Glenn

The reason why you don’t see it is because you’re making the same mistake nearly everybody else does by taking certain verses out of context and not realizing the inheritors of the telestial kingdom are actually exposed to a divinely ordained process designed to humble the formerly wicked by being made to suffer for their own sins until, like Alma the Younger, they cry out to the Son of God for relief and redemption. I will now set forth the steps of this process that leads the wicked and rebellious to eventual salvation,

1) A partial list of the sins of the wicked is revealed.

2) As a consequence of their sinfulness, they suffer the wrath of God on earth (I.e. they remain alienated from God  and stained with sin).

3) When these wicked individuals die, their spirits are cast into hell as just punishment for their sinfulness. 

4) While in hell these wicked spirits are exposed to a divinely ordained process of punishment and purging called “the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.”

5) The purpose of this winepress experience is to cause the wicked to suffer for their own sins without mitigation, with the goal of eventual remorse and contrition. Eventually the resistance of these enemies of God is subdued to the point they are no longer alienated from him because they are willing to exercise faith in Christ and sincerely repent.

6) This divine process of spiritual transformation is completed when these formerly wicked and rebellious spirits are resurrected at the time of the last resurrection, when they shall obediently bow the knee to God the Father and confess to him that Jesus is the Christ.

7) Upon their confession before God that Christ is their atoning Savior, they are permitted to enter the mansion of heavenly glory known as the telestial kingdom.

Read D&C 76 beginning at verse 103 and you’ll be able to follow this remarkable process of spiritual transformation as it unfolds...

Edited December 29, 2020 by teddyaware

[Glenn101]

3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

In light of the Church’s current understanding of the workings of the plan of salvation, as revealed in D&C 76, all we can safely say without incurring the displeasure of the Church leaders is that we have every reason to believe the inhabitants of the lower kingdoms will continue to learn, grow and progress spiritually. However how that continued spiritual progress is going to be manifested remains to be seen.

I am in agreement with that. As of now, the scriptures I have quoted (Section 76:112 and 2 Nephi 28:8) would seem to dictate against a progression between kingdoms. JHLPROF seems to think otherwise, that eventually those in the Telestial Kingdom will be able to pogress to a Celestial sphere, but the Celestial Sphere is inhabited by God.

Of course I am open to further revelation on the subject (and others).

Glenn

[teddyaware]

35 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

I am in agreement with that. As of now, the scriptures I have quoted (Section 76:112 and 2 Nephi 28:8) would seem to dictate against a progression between kingdoms. JHLPROF seems to think otherwise, that eventually those in the Telestial Kingdom will be able to pogress to a Celestial sphere, but the Celestial Sphere is inhabited by God.

Of course I am open to further revelation on the subject (and others).

Glenn

While I’m unwilling to advocate for speculative doctrinal positions that are not currently officially endorsed by the leaders of the Church, nevertheless it does seem reasonable to consider there’s at least a possibility that the inheritors of the lower kingdoms of glory may one day become exalted, and I say this because they are going to be learning, improving, growing and progressing forever, and forever is an awfully long time for someone to not be able to eventually learn how to become exalted.

Edited December 29, 2020 by teddyaware

[JLHPROF]

8 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

I am in agreement with that. As of now, the scriptures I have quoted (Section 76:112 and 2 Nephi 28:8) would seem to dictate against a progression between kingdoms. JHLPROF seems to think otherwise, that eventually those in the Telestial Kingdom will be able to pogress to a Celestial sphere, but the Celestial Sphere is inhabited by God.

Of course I am open to further revelation on the subject (and others).

Glenn

The kingdoms aren't stagnant immovable locations.  When 76:112 states that a Terrestrial being can never get where God dwells that's true.

But when that Terrestrial kingdom eventually progresses to a Celestial glory, God may well have moved on.  I don't necessarily believe in progression between kingdoms.  But perhaps in progression of kingdoms.

After all, that's exactly what this earth is doing and continues to do.  It is currently a Telestial Sphere.  In the Millennium it will be a Terrestrial Sphere.  And eventually a Celestial one.

[Glenn101]

9 hours ago, teddyaware said:

While I’m unwilling to advocate for speculative doctrinal positions that are not currently officially endorsed by the leaders of the Church, nevertheless it does seem reasonable to consider there’s at least a possibility that the inheritors of the lower kingdoms of glory may one day become exalted, and I say this because they are going to be learning, improving, growing and progressing forever, and forever is an awfully long time for someone to not be able to eventually learn how to become exalted.

Yes forever is pretty close to being like worlds without end. 😎

Glenn

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

The kingdoms aren't stagnant immovable locations.  When 76:112 states that a Terrestrial being can never get where God dwells that's true.

But when that Terrestrial kingdom eventually progresses to a Celestial glory, God may well have moved on.  I don't necessarily believe in progression between kingdoms.  But perhaps in progression of kingdoms.

After all, that's exactly what this earth is doing and continues to do.  It is currently a Telestial Sphere.  In the Millennium it will be a Terrestrial Sphere.  And eventually a Celestial one.

As teddyaware noted, that is speculative. I do believe in some type of progression within kingdoms, but I do not know what form of progression that will be. God is "moving on" in His progression, although he is a perfect being, but to imply that he has moved up is to speculate that there is another level of glory beyond the Celestial which idea is not supported by any scriptures I have read.

Glenn

[JLHPROF]

54 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

As teddyaware noted, that is speculative. I do believe in some type of progression within kingdoms, but I do not know what form of progression that will be. God is "moving on" in His progression, although he is a perfect being, but to imply that he has moved up is to speculate that there is another level of glory beyond the Celestial which idea is not supported by any scriptures I have read.

Glenn

"D&C 130:10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;
            11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word."

Higher kingdoms than Celestial clearly mentioned in scripture.

"What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1971/04/the-king-follett-sermon?lang=eng

God moves to a higher exaltation than his current Celestial kingdom and Christ takes his place.

Both teachings from official Church website publications.

Edited December 29, 2020 by JLHPROF

[teddyaware]

47 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

"D&C 130:10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;
            11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word."

Higher kingdoms than Celestial clearly mentioned in scripture.

"What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1971/04/the-king-follett-sermon?lang=eng

God moves to a higher exaltation than his current Celestial kingdom and Christ takes his place.

Both teachings from official Church website publications.

I’m certain the prophet Mormon had a complete, fully expansive knowledge of the gospel, similar to the full picture of the things of God the brother of Jared had (I say this because Mormon had access to the writings of the brother of Jared as well as knowing in full the hidden teachings of the Savior to the Nephites that he was forbidden of the Lord to include in his abridgment). This means he knew all about the salvation of the dead as well as the three degrees of post-resurrection glory.

Yet when one reads his abridgment of the Nephite records it’s obvious he was very careful to not include the more advanced principle of the gospel. Hence I believe the Book of Mormon was deliberately written in such a way so as to put the fear of God into people with it’s very strict “one heaven, one hell” presentation of the gospel. In similar fashion, if it actually is true that the inheritors of the lower kingdoms will, at least at some point, be able to obtain celestial glory it’s being deliberately withheld in order to keep the members of the Church motivated with a healthy fear of the irrevocable judgements of God.

Edited December 29, 2020 by teddyaware

[JLHPROF]

16 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

I’m certain the prophet Mormon had a complete, fully expansive knowledge of the gospel, similar to the full picture of the things of God the brother of Jared had (I say this because Mormon had access to the writings of the brother of Jared as well as knowing in full the hidden teachings of the Savior to the Nephites that he was forbidden of the Lord to include in his abridgment). This means he knew all about the salvation of the dead as well as the three degrees of post-resurrection glory.

Yet when one reads his abridgment of the Nephite records it’s obvious he was very careful to not include the more advanced principle of the gospel. Hence I believe the Book of Mormon was deliberately written in such a way so as to put the fear of God into people with it’s very strict “one heaven, one hell” presentation of the gospel. In similar fashion, if it actually is true that the inheritors of the lower kingdoms will, at least at some point, be able to obtain celestial glory it’s being deliberately withheld in order to keep the members of the Church motivated with a healthy fear of the irrevocable judgements of God.

  That's awesome.  And probably true.
To me it just beggars logic that if eternal life is infinite and we have the ability to learn and progress that we are confined to a limited sphere.
I've posted the great Star Trek episode representation of eternal life within a limited sphere as being hell.  Eventually everyone would have done everything there was to do.

No, I don't think people progress between kingdoms.  But I do believe ALL Kingdoms progress eternally along with their inhabitants, just as the one on which we currently dwell is progressing.
 

[teddyaware]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

  That's awesome.  And probably true.
To me it just beggars logic that if eternal life is infinite and we have the ability to learn and progress that we are confined to a limited sphere.
I've posted the great Star Trek episode representation of eternal life within a limited sphere as being hell.  Eventually everyone would have done everything there was to do.

No, I don't think people progress between kingdoms.  But I do believe ALL Kingdoms progress eternally along with their inhabitants, just as the one on which we currently dwell is progressing.
 

In this way, those on both sides of the debate could be speaking the truth.

[Glenn101]

56 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

D&C 130:10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;
            11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word."

Higher kingdoms than Celestial clearly mentioned in scripture.

There is much ambiguity concerning this scripture. Verse 10 notes some individuals will be given a stone that will become "a Urim and Thummim whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known."

Verse 11 notes that all who enter the Celestial Kingdom will receive a white stone. Verse 10 could very well be referring to certain individuals is the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdom's that are chosen to govern in their spheres and receive intelligence about and from higher kingdoms. Of course that is speculation also.

As for the King Follett sermon there is too much in it to draw a conclusion from this one excerpt. I think that we may be getting into a game of semantics. Our God will always be on a higher order than we, but my head explodes when  try to contemplate a hierarchy of Gods and kingdoms, but each being a Celestial Kingdom.

I still see no support for the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms to eventually become exalted.

Glenn

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

I’m certain the prophet Mormon had a complete, fully expansive knowledge of the gospel, similar to the full picture of the things of God the brother of Jared had (I say this because Mormon had access to the writings of the brother of Jared as well as knowing in full the hidden teachings of the Savior to the Nephites that he was forbidden of the Lord to include in his abridgment). This means he knew all about the salvation of the dead as well as the three degrees of post-resurrection glory.

Yet when one reads his abridgment of the Nephite records it’s obvious he was very careful to not include the more advanced principle of the gospel. Hence I believe the Book of Mormon was deliberately written in such a way so as to put the fear of God into people with it’s very strict “one heaven, one hell” presentation of the gospel. In similar fashion, if it actually is true that the inheritors of the lower kingdoms will, at least at some point, be able to obtain celestial glory it’s being deliberately withheld in order to keep the members of the Church motivated with a healthy fear of the irrevocable judgements of God.

The Book of Mormon was written for our day, correct. I would not want to influence anyone with principles, beliefs that may lead another astray.

Glenn

[JLHPROF]

25 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

I still see no support for the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms to eventually become exalted.

Other than the lack of logic of the alternate option.

[teddyaware]

37 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

The Book of Mormon was written for our day, correct. I would not want to influence anyone with principles, beliefs that may lead another astray.

Glenn

The Book of Mormon was indeed written for our day, but it’s no less than the prophet Mormon himself who informs us  that his abridgment, as we have it today, is quite incomplete insofar as the greater doctrines of the gospel of Christ are concerned. He was directly warned of God to leave the more advanced teachings pertaining to the gospel and kingdom of God out of the Book of Mormon...

7 But behold the plates of Nephi do contain the more part of the things which he (Christ) taught the people.
8 And these things have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken.
9 And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they (the latter-day gentile converts) shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them.
10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.
11 Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon the plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it, saying: I will try the faith of my people.
12 Therefore I, Mormon, do write the things which have been commanded me of the Lord. And now I, Mormon, make an end of my sayings, and proceed to write the things which have been commanded me. (3 Nephi 27)

[Ahab]

2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

I’m certain the prophet Mormon had a complete, fully expansive knowledge of the gospel, similar to the full picture of the things of God the brother of Jared had (I say this because Mormon had access to the writings of the brother of Jared as well as knowing in full the hidden teachings of the Savior to the Nephites that he was forbidden of the Lord to include in his abridgment). This means he knew all about the salvation of the dead as well as the three degrees of post-resurrection glory.

Yet when one reads his abridgment of the Nephite records it’s obvious he was very careful to not include the more advanced principle of the gospel. Hence I believe the Book of Mormon was deliberately written in such a way so as to put the fear of God into people with it’s very strict “one heaven, one hell” presentation of the gospel. In similar fashion, if it actually is true that the inheritors of the lower kingdoms will, at least at some point, be able to obtain celestial glory it’s being deliberately withheld in order to keep the members of the Church motivated with a healthy fear of the irrevocable judgements of God.

I think the "fear of God" is and can still be maintained even when knowing there will be divisions of glory among us (all of our kind of being) involving some of us having more glory/intelligence than others of us at specific moments in time.  Like on "judgment day", for example.  Or even right now.

Those of us with even a portion of celestial glory/intelligence will eventually receive a fulness while those of us who reject or rejected that level of intelligence/glory will at best only have the hope of becoming that intelligent/glorious. 

All of which goes to show that it does not help to reject the words/revelations of God, and the more we believe God and do what he knows we should do, the better off we will be.  And the sooner the better.

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, Glenn101 said:

There is much ambiguity concerning this scripture. Verse 10 notes some individuals will be given a stone that will become "a Urim and Thummim whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known."

Verse 11 notes that all who enter the Celestial Kingdom will receive a white stone. Verse 10 could very well be referring to certain individuals is the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdom's that are chosen to govern in their spheres and receive intelligence about and from higher kingdoms. Of course that is speculation also.

As for the King Follett sermon there is too much in it to draw a conclusion from this one excerpt. I think that we may be getting into a game of semantics. Our God will always be on a higher order than we, but my head explodes when  try to contemplate a hierarchy of Gods and kingdoms, but each being a Celestial Kingdom.

I still see no support for the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms to eventually become exalted.

Glenn

Try thinking about what it means to be exalted.  We're not talking about some of us becoming a different kind of being than we are now.  Glory/exaltation is all about intelligence...the glory of God is intelligence... so the more intelligent we are, which is shown by how we choose to act, the more glorious we are and will be if we continue to act intelligently.

[teddyaware]

36 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I think the "fear of God" is and can still be maintained even when knowing there will be divisions of glory among us (all of our kind of being) involving some of us having more glory/intelligence than others of us at specific moments in time.  Like on "judgment day", for example.  Or even right now.

Those of us with even a portion of celestial glory/intelligence will eventually receive a fulness while those of us who reject or rejected that level of intelligence/glory will at best only have the hope of becoming that intelligent/glorious. 

All of which goes to show that it does not help to reject the words/revelations of God, and the more we believe God and do what he knows we should do, the better off we will be.  And the sooner the better.

True. Only an idiot would think waiting for 10 million years to obtain the greatest of all blessings, something he could have had 10 million years sooner if he’d only been obedient, is a great deal.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

I think the "fear of God" is and can still be maintained even when knowing there will be divisions of glory among us (all of our kind of being) involving some of us having more glory/intelligence than others of us at specific moments in time.  Like on "judgment day", for example.  Or even right now.

Those of us with even a portion of celestial glory/intelligence will eventually receive a fulness while those of us who reject or rejected that level of intelligence/glory will at best only have the hope of becoming that intelligent/glorious. 

All of which goes to show that it does not help to reject the words/revelations of God, and the more we believe God and do what he knows we should do, the better off we will be.  And the sooner the better.

Time?

What does that mean to God/spirits?

God lives in an eternal present. As you can "go back" to your childhood instantly he can go forward as well, and some Prophets have been in the future as well

https://iep.utm.edu/god-time/

Edited December 29, 2020 by mfbukowski

[JLHPROF]

28 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

True. Only an idiot would think waiting for 10 million years to obtain the greatest of all blessings, something he could have had 10 million years sooner if he’d only been obedient, is a great deal.

Especially if you're going to have to do it anyway.
 

"What you have agreed to do, God will require you to perform, if it should be ten thousand years after this time.  And when the servants of God speak to you, and require you to do a thing, the Lord God will fulfil (sic) His words he gave to you through His servants. Inasmuch as you have come into this Church, and made a covenant to forsake the world, and cleave unto the Lord, and keep His commandments, the Lord will compel you to do it, if it should be in ten thousand years from this time. These are my views, and I know it will be so.” Heber C. Kimball JD 2:151

[Ahab]

20 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Time?

What does that mean to God/spirits?

God lives in an eternal present. As you can "go back" to your childhood instantly he can go forward as well, and some Prophets have been in the future as well

https://iep.utm.edu/god-time/

Time will continue as a construct of the past, present and future.  It may not be referred to as it is on this planet right now, such as when we say 12:37pm Pacific Time, but time will always exist and we (our kind of being) will always live in the present.