Why Niceness Weakens Our Witness

[Meadowchik]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

From members too. Usually they are more protective of young converts in my experience.  I hope they take the time to learn more about him. Is he not showing enough (or any) deference to those older than him setting off triggers?

Isn't then formalized apologetics perhaps asking too much of a young new member? Does FAIR have any responsibility to guage the readiness of the personalities it platforms?

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

Isn't then formalized apologetics perhaps asking too much of a young new member? Does FAIR have any responsibility to guage the readiness of the personalities it platforms?

Infantalising a young Black man may not play well  in this forum...

[Meadowchik]

39 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Infantalising a young Black man may not play well  in this forum...

Thank you for this. I won't dismiss the possibility that I was operating from the wrong assumptions. 

However it remains a real concern that young new members of the church lack the life experience within the church that will prepare them for the strife of apologetics. This would apply to Hanna Seariac, too.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Meadowchik
Name spelling.

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Thank you for this. I won't dismiss the possibility that I was operating from the wrong assumptions. 

Quote

However it remains a real concern that young new members of the church lack the life experience within the church that will prepare them for the strife of apologetics.

This would be the same Church that was founded by a 24 year old who claimed that he had seen God in vision when he was 14, right? The Church that, in the spirit of Joel 2:28,* sends 18-year-old boys and 19-year-old girls into jungles both botanical and concrete -- and everywhere in between -- to teach faith in the Living Christ to both the illiterate and the Dean of the Harvard Divinity School (experiences of people I know personally!) -- and everyone in between?

The very best companion I had as a full-time missionary was a dumb kid from Idaho who had been a member of the Church for exactly 12 months when he pledged His life to God in a holy temple and then entered the MTC. Just thinking about the sacred experiences we had together -- including the flood of revelation that accompanied our sweet unity! -- has rekindled my love for him and my gratitude to the kind and happy God Who brought us together. (As Elder T--- liked to remind me, without the Church, we never would have met since we 'didn't run in the same circles' -- an understatement!)

The idea that 'apologetics' is the special preserve of older, more learned, more staid, more 'Christlike' members makes me think of what must have been said to the young Joseph by the 'professors of religion' that he mentions in his 1838 history. One of the things that I've learnt during my time in the Church -- and for me it all begins with Joseph and Brigham -- is that the Lord knows how to use all kinds. He's proved that to me repeatedly by using me!

I love few things more than encountering someone who knows what I know and is willing to share it. Everything else is just style. I don't have to like everyone's style, but I can't not love me a personal witness of the Living Christ and His Restored Kingdom.

_____

* 'And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions ...'

Edited December 11, 2020 by Hamba Tuhan

[Meadowchik]

46 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

This would be the same Church that was founded by a 24 year old who claimed that he had seen God in vision when he was 14, right? The Church that, in the spirit of Joel 2:28,* sends 18-year-old boys and 19-year-old girls into jungles both botanical and concrete -- and everywhere in between -- to teach faith in the Living Christ to both the illiterate and the Dean of the Harvard Divinity School (experiences of people I know personally!) -- and everyone in between?

The very best companion I had as a full-time missionary was a dumb kid from Idaho who had been a member of the Church for exactly 12 months when he pledged His life to God in a holy temple and then entered the MTC. Just thinking about the sacred experiences we had together -- including the flood of revelation that accompanied our sweet unity! -- has rekindled my love for him and my gratitude to the kind and happy God Who brought us together. (As Elder T--- liked to remind me, without the Church, we never would have met since we 'didn't run in the same circles' -- an understatement!)

The idea that 'apologetics' is the special preserve of older, more learned, more staid, more 'Christlike' members makes me think of what must have been said to the young Joseph by the 'professors of religion' that he mentions in his 1838 history. One of the things that I've learnt during my time in the Church -- and for me it all begins with Joseph and Brigham -- is that the Lord knows how to use all kinds. He's proved that to me repeatedly by using me!

I love few things more than encountering someone who knows what I know and is willing to share it. Everything else is just style. I don't have to like everyone's style, but I can't not love me a personal witness of the Living Christ and His Restored Kingdom.

_____

* 'And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions ...'

The age of Joseph Smith was not forgotten when I wrote my comments. I think it is safe to say that the same Church that was founded by a 24-year-old is not at all structured to repeat the procedure today. The Founding was a one-off event and the Church does not accept authority today the way it accepted Joseph Smith's then. For example, the young missionaries today have a very controlled and supervised experience.

 

 

 

 

 

[bluebell]

9 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

No where in the scriptures are we told to be nice.

 

being nice is passive. It’s a reaction to others. We are afraid to rock the boat so we don’t correct something that should be corrected. We let someone abuse us because we don’t want to be “the bad guy”

Nice is about how others view us.

 

Jesus called us to be bold & kind. Those are active attributes. Those require courage. They are inner virtues that don’t care about what others think of us, we will do what is right 

I agree. 

I think of Jesus cleansing the temple.  There is no way to describe His actions that day as 'nice' but they can not be described as unkind either.  To me this means that we can be not nice and still be kind at the same time.

[DBokovoy]

[pogi]

12 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

You honestly believe that Old Testament prophets did not understand or live the higher law themselves? I don't.

Well, what I believe about that is beside my main point about what our living modern prophets have counseled and what our scriptures have instructed.  I don't believe that the behavior of any prophet counteracts the instruction in Alma 5:30-31.

I must admit, it would be very hard for me to imagine a living prophet counseling us to mock those who persecute us. They plainly and repeatedly have taught the contrary.  

I want to make it clear, I am in no way condemning Kwaku or FAIR, the tone in those videos are tame compared to what my own tongue has leashed on these boards.  But this topic has given me an opportunity to reflect on my own behavior and how they align with the standards that I uphold.   I need to do better.  I think we all can.  The tone of the nation and world has taken a hit and I hope that we can set a better standard...to walk the path less traveled.  Our living prophets have set the right tone, they have set the standard and have given us all something to aspire to. 

We can be firm and forthright without mocking and ridiculing or making fun of those who fight against us.  I am not suggesting that we should be pushovers, but we need not partake of the bitter fruit and tone that has overtaken our nation. 

I really loved this article published by the church:

Quote

 

“Woe unto such an one, for he is not prepared, and the time is at hand that he must repent or he cannot be saved!” (Alma 5:30–31.) This scripture was addressed to members of the church of Christ whose behavior belied their professions of discipleship. Like all scripture, it may be likened to our day “for our profit and learning.” (1 Ne. 19:23.) Just as God will not be mocked, so will he not have his children mock one another.

To mock is to humiliate, ridicule, insult, revile, make fun of, deride, sneer at, scorn, or hold in contempt. Teasing is a “mild” form of mockery that sometimes occurs without malice or intent to harm, but frequently results in strained interpersonal relations and a loss of self-esteem on the part of the object of laughter.

Some interpersonal mockery probably derives from thoughtless conformity to social pressures or an attempt to divert attention from personal imperfection to the alleged imperfections of others. In addition, pride seems to be a fundamental vice underlying much mockery of our brother. Pride embodies the spirit of condescension. C. S. Lewis said it well:

“A proud man is always looking down on things and people; and, of course, as long as you are looking down, you cannot see something that is above you.” (C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, Macmillan Paperbacks, New York, 1960, p. 96.)

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1975/04/mocking-our-brother?lang=eng

 

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by pogi

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

The age of Joseph Smith was not forgotten when I wrote my comments. I think it is safe to say that the same Church that was founded by a 24-year-old is not at all structured to repeat the procedure today. The Founding was a one-off event and the Church does not accept authority today the way it accepted Joseph Smith's then. For example, the young missionaries today have a very controlled and supervised experience.

Has missionary work changed a lot in the last 20 years? A very controlled and supervised experience is not what I lived on my mission.

[pogi]

10 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

No where in the scriptures are we told to be nice.

 

being nice is passive. It’s a reaction to others. We are afraid to rock the boat so we don’t correct something that should be corrected. We let someone abuse us because we don’t want to be “the bad guy”

Nice is about how others view us.

 

Jesus called us to be bold & kind. Those are active attributes. Those require courage. They are inner virtues that don’t care about what others think of us, we will do what is right 

I think this focus on "nice" is a distraction from the vice of mocking and ridiculing behavior.  We cannot justify mocking behavior because the scripture don't command us to be "nice" (they do use just about every synonym for the word nice however).  It is likewise true that there is not a single scripture where we are told to mock our brother.  We do have scriptures to the contrary, however.  

 

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think this focus on "nice" is a distraction from the vice of mocking and ridiculing behavior.  We cannot justify mocking behavior because the scripture don't command us to be "nice" (they do use just about every synonym for the word nice however).  It is likewise true that there is not a single scripture where we are told to mock our brother.  We do have scriptures to the contrary, however.  

 

I agree with the bold.  But the thread is a discussion of a blog which specifically discusses niceness.  As such I'm not sure how a focus on the term can be a distraction from the OP. 

Do you see the blog as an attempt to justify mocking?  

[Robert J Anderson]

I agree that one should stand up for oneself and not apologize for doing so.  However, these videos aren't what I think we as a church should stand for.  Perhaps it'll help retain kids in the short-run as kids and adults as well like strength.  However, calm, matter of fact responses are what is needed and not gimmicks that the youth will see through.  Give the youth the facts, show them the benefits of remaining.  We have a good thing here and I don't think we need to stoop to the mocking and ridiculing behavior Pogi speaks of above.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I agree. 

I think of Jesus cleansing the temple.  There is no way to describe His actions that day as 'nice' but they can not be described as unkind either.  To me this means that we can be not nice and still be kind at the same time.

I think his actions in the temple can be described as nice in the same way that it can be described as kind.  I don't know if we should try to limit one of the most  polysemous words in the English language to such a narrow use or meaning.  Perhaps with so many different ways to use the word, it becomes less helpful as we are all likely talking past each other.  Perhaps we should be more specific in our language.  There is a good reason why the word "nice" is often banned by writing instructors. 

This is really interesting short article about the word "nice" by Meriam Webster:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/nice-multiple-meanings

Edited December 11, 2020 by pogi

[pogi]

32 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I agree with the bold.  But the thread is a discussion of a blog which specifically discusses niceness.  As such I'm not sure how a focus on the term can be a distraction from the OP. 

Do you see the blog as an attempt to justify mocking?  

I am addressing how the thread has evolved and not how it started.  The thread has become more about niceness in relation to the FAIR videos, even before I joined the conversation.  If Avatar was addressing the OP, I misunderstood and I apologize. 

Edited December 11, 2020 by pogi

[bluebell]

28 minutes ago, pogi said:

I am addressing how the thread has evolved and not how it started.  The thread has become more about niceness in relation to the FAIR videos, even before I joined the conversation.  If Avatar was addressing the OP, I misunderstood and I apologize. 

I haven't seen that evolution and I've personally always been discussing the OP. 

I do recognize that some posters have taken the ideas in the OP and applied them to the FAIR videos, which is relevant.  My only point is that that isn't the sole topic of the thread and that discussing the OP's use of the term 'nice' isn't a distraction.

[bluebell]

39 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think his actions in the temple can be described as nice in the same way that it can be described as kind.  I don't know if we should try to limit one of the most  polysemous words in the English language to such a narrow use or meaning.  Perhaps with so many different ways to use the word, it becomes less helpful as we are all likely talking past each other.  Perhaps we should be more specific in our language.  There is a good reason why the word "nice" is often banned by writing instructors. 

This is really interesting short article about the word "nice" by Meriam Webster:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/nice-multiple-meanings

I'm not attempting to narrow the definition of the word 'nice' and agree it has multiple meanings.  I've explained in my earlier posts where I'm coming from. 

[pogi]

18 minutes ago, bluebell said:

My only point is that that isn't the sole topic of the thread and that discussing the OP's use of the term 'nice' isn't a distraction.

Fair enough

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Has missionary work changed a lot in the last 20 years? A very controlled and supervised experience is not what I lived on my mission.

Really? It was not very controlled and supervised? Huh. 

I suppose that the supervision and control of a companion, zone leader oversight, mission president instructions, and First Presidency assignment along with the handbook rules is all relative. 

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think this focus on "nice" is a distraction from the vice of mocking and ridiculing behavior.  We cannot justify mocking behavior because the scripture don't command us to be "nice" (they do use just about every synonym for the word nice however).  It is likewise true that there is not a single scripture where we are told to mock our brother.  We do have scriptures to the contrary, however.  

And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made. And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.

 

[pogi]

10 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made. And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.

Hamab Tuhan already brought up this passage, and I have responded. 

[The Nehor]

17 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Really? It was not very controlled and supervised? Huh. 

I suppose that the supervision and control of a companion, zone leader oversight, mission president instructions, and First Presidency assignment along with the handbook rules is all relative. 

Generally I heard from leadership above a district leader once a month and district leaders just took reports. You are generally controlled as much as you allow yourself to be. Missionaries have gone off and done all kinds of crazy. There is no one there to tell you to get out of bed or to do the work or whatever except (maybe) your companion. I just don't see it as particularly controlling. I was genuinely curious if missionary life had changed.

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

Hamab Tuhan already brought up this passage, and I have responded. 

It is a pretty ridiculous argument and I posted it for fun and don't need a response. I apologize for not reading the whole thread though and missing the earlier comment.

Edited December 11, 2020 by The Nehor

[bluebell]

20 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Really? It was not very controlled and supervised? Huh. 

I suppose that the supervision and control of a companion, zone leader oversight, mission president instructions, and First Presidency assignment along with the handbook rules is all relative. 

Maybe Nehor is talking about how, though there are rules and "supervisors," no one is around to make sure rules are being followed and the supervisors are not very hands on.

Missionaries may have a rule of being out of the house at a certain time in the morning or doing so many hours of proselytizing work a week, but no one makes sure those rules are followed.  A missionary or companionship could stay in the house all week for example, if they wanted to.  Especially in those instances where the zone leader and mission president are hundreds of miles away (which isn't at all unusual).   

[Damien the Leper]

22 hours ago, juliann said:

They usually want to smack me. So let me explain, when I as a 19 year founding member of FM, make an attempt to describe that experience and see a response that condenses it to "frustration" followed by an explanation of what FM intends to do, it does trigger that response. Mansplaining has never been a helpful response in these parts but sometimes that frustration of mine gets the best of me. 

That does not mean it wasn't an accurate descriptor.

[Avatar4321]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I agree. 

I think of Jesus cleansing the temple.  There is no way to describe His actions that day as 'nice' but they can not be described as unkind either.  To me this means that we can be not nice and still be kind at the same time.

The more I think about it the more I’m convinced that niceness is satans counterfeit for kindness.