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collateral damage from covid


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1 hour ago, pogi said:

You don’t have the resources?  Then how are you so confident in your 0.2% figure?  No reference, no resources, no math, just random figures pulled out of a hat.  You said “we now know...”, will you at least correct that to say “I believe, without any resources, that...”?  Give me some kind of hint that you are we at least trying to act in good faith. 

We don't know the numbers because we can’t trust the test results, but “we now know“ the exact death rate?  Just stop.

What does Gretchen Whitmer have to do with 0.2%?  Quit deflecting!  Seriously, enough is enough.  Stop spreading falsehoods as fact people.  Stop the false, misleading, and downplaying narratives.  When you say “we now know”, when we don’t, that is toxic.  It’s a false truth.  This approach is destroying the character of our nation. This is leading us into dark times with an enemy (the virus) that you have way underestimated.  We are just getting started.  This is not a game.  I am done playing with you.  

So, how do you know that "we are just getting started?"  You are guessing, right?  Knowing that "we are just getting started" implies that you have an idea when this will end or that it won't end for a long time.  Please point me to where you get your information to formulate the highlighted statement.

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1 hour ago, Robert J Anderson said:

So, how do you know that "we are just getting started?"  You are guessing, right?  Knowing that "we are just getting started" implies that you have an idea when this will end or that it won't end for a long time.  Please point me to where you get your information to formulate the highlighted statement.

I am expressing my opinion based on good information.  I am probably the most qualified person here to do so as a public health medical professional who has specialized in infectious disease.   I am not presenting this as fact that "we now know" without any reference, resource, or anything to base my confidence in.

Here is my information:  The vast majority of the population is still naive to the virus and therefore susceptible.   Infection rates are the highest they have been since this all started and still increasing.  Positive percentage rates (a very important indicator) are increasing.  Hospitals are maxing out, staff is exhausted and burned out (you can doubt the test rates all you want, but you can't blow off this fact - seems strange that the hospitals are maxing out if 90% of positive cases should actually be negative...hmmm).  We are just now entering winter season with the highest rates we have ever seen, at the very time when everyone moves indoors (bad) and gathers as families and extended families/friends for the holidays.  Couple that with flu season and we have good reason to believe that the worst is still to come - that is what I mean by "we are just getting started".  I don't think we have seen anything yet.   On top of that, people are tired of it all and are getting lax about the guidelines (especially young college aged kids who are excellent community spreaders and many will be going home for the holidays).  They just want to be done with Covid and frequent bars, parties, etc.  But the curve is looking exponential in the wrong direction.  Contact tracing efforts are deteriorating with the increasing numbers.  We can't keep up with the numbers so our protocol is constantly being updated, which reduces efficacy of our efforts, but allows us to at least call everyone.  Our investigation and tracing efforts can't be as thorough anymore.  We simply don't have the man power and resources to keep up.  That means it will be less contained than it has been.  So, no it is not based on nothing.  Despite claims that "We are rounding the corner" or that it will magically just go away,  there is absolutely no indication of that.  All indications point to the opposite.  

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We meet this week as the situation is becoming even more dire. Overflowing hospitals in Houston are beginning to look like New York’s in April, while areas of states including Texas, California, Arizona and Florida are starting to shut back down. 

“I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say we have a serious ongoing problem, right now, as we speak,” Fauci says, in an accent tinged by his native Brooklyn. He warned Congress late last month that the number of new cases could rise to 100,000 a day. “What worries me is the slope of the curve,” he explains, using his fingers to draw a chart in the air. “It still looks like it’s exponential.” 

https://www.ft.com/content/57834c2c-a078-4736-9173-8fb32cfbbf4e

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The United States is “facing a whole lot of trouble” as coronavirus cases continue to surge across the country heading into the cold winter months

“perfect setup for an acceleration of respiratory borne diseases,” Fauci added.

“This is too important a problem. I’ve devoted my entire professional life to fighting infectious diseases. This is an outbreak of historic proportions, the likes of which we have not seen in 102 years,” Fauci said. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/12/dr-fauci-says-us-is-facing-ce-as-coronavirus-cases-rise-heading-into-winter.html

If one candidate wins, I am afraid we are going to lose this giant of a man and top expert in infectious disease who has devoted his life to serving and protecting the public.  It will be a national tragedy.  We will lose the greatest infectious disease experts in the world and they will be replaced with Scott Atlas's.   If that happens, Father help us all. 

Edited by pogi
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2 hours ago, pogi said:

We don't know the numbers because we can’t trust the test results, but “we now know“ the exact death rate?  Just stop.

We can read between the lines.  We know there have been way too many inconsistencies.  Dr Fauci has been wildly inconsistent.  We have good reasons to distrust the "totalitarians."  The lockdowns should NEVER have been permitted.  Again, too many covid deaths have been applied to suspicious circumstances.  I.E. motorcycle accident victim was tagged as a covid death.

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38 minutes ago, pogi said:

If one candidate wins, I am afraid we are going to lose this giant of a man and top expert in infectious disease who has devoted his life to serving and protecting the public.  It will be a national tragedy.  We will lose the greatest infectious disease experts in the world and they will be replaced with Scott Atlas's.   If that happens, Father help us all. 

I have never heard of Scott Atlas.  But Fauci is a government employee and we don't really trust those types.  Trust the science, but not the government's science.

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16 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

I have never heard of Scott Atlas.  But Fauci is a government employee and we don't really trust those types.  Trust the science, but not the government's science.

He is Trump's appointed Covid advisor (a government employee).  His background is in neuroradiology...you know reading X-rays and CT scans, etc.  :rolleyes:  Neuroradiology...covid...makes perfect sense!  This is the man that is replacing Fauci (you know a man who has devoted his entire life to fighting infectious disease) as Trump's main advisor. 

16 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

Trust the science, but not the government's science.

Pretty much all science is government funded science.  

Edited by pogi
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42 minutes ago, longview said:

We have good reasons to distrust the "totalitarians."  

You mean T-man?  I agree, don't trust him.  He is lying through his teeth.  He has been wrong from the beginning.  He has been caught on recording admitting to intentionally downplaying the virus.  He knows how serious it is and lied to the American people about it.    He has been saying from the beginning it is just going away, we are rounding the corner...so don't worry about it, we have it under control.   Yet it keeps getting worse.  

If he has a problem with any government agency or official handling Covid, he can fire them.  He is the sole person responsible for this disaster.   Even if you are right that the government has blown the response (which they have thanks to T-man who has undercut them at every corner) and we can't trust anything they say, you can only blame one man for that.  He is the boss man.  He is the one accountable.    

 

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22 hours ago, pogi said:

... I am so tired of this baloney.  The doctors and coroners who sign the death certificates don't get a single red penny for stating it was due to Covid.  They have no incentive to commit medical fraud.  None. ...

This is a sincere question, and I'm asking because, honestly, I don't know, and I have absolutely no desire to add any fuel to any of the rhetorical fires that have been started here, but, do hospitals?  (I don't know what sort of financial assistance for hospitals might have been included in any COVID-19 legislation.)

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1 minute ago, Kenngo1969 said:

do hospitals? 

From what I have read...

They have to give the treatments they get funded for and given the increased hoops they have to jump through to count something as Covid (just think of how much hassle using new PPC for each patient), it seems not much. Now if someone was outright lying and bribing a doctor to falsify records...I imagine the risk of losing funding, their job, criminal charges, etc outweighs the benefit.  

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47 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

This is a sincere question, and I'm asking because, honestly, I don't know, and I have absolutely no desire to add any fuel to any of the rhetorical fires that have been started here, but, do hospitals?  (I don't know what sort of financial assistance for hospitals might have been included in any COVID-19 legislation.)

Hospitals do get paid more if the patient is on medicare.  It is nothing new, and is true with other diseases too.  Here is why it happens:

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Each hospital has a base payment rate assigned by Medicare. It takes into account nationwide and regional trends, including labor costs and varying health care resources in each market.

Then, each diagnosis-related group, which classifies various diagnoses into groups and subgroups, is assigned a weight based on the average amount of resources it takes to care for a patient. Those figures are multiplied to determine the payment from Medicare. A hospital in one city and state may be paid more or less for treating a patient than a hospital in another.

 

It costs more to care for them.  Medicare pays hospitals more for diagnoses (not just Covid) that cost more to care for.

 The Senator who originally brought it up is Senator Scott Jensen.

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"Jensen said he did not think that hospitals were intentionally misclassifying cases for financial reasons. But that’s how his comments have been widely interpreted and paraded on social media."

 "Recent legislation pays hospitals [not doctors and coroners who are writing the death certificates] higher Medicare rates for COVID-19 patients and treatment, but there is no evidence of fraudulent reporting."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/04/24/fact-check-medicare-hospitals-paid-more-covid-19-patients-coronavirus/3000638001/

 

Interestingly, hospitals get paid over 7 times more (around $39,000 vs $5,000) if they place a medicare patient on a ventilator (way higher than if it is a death).  For some reason our use of ventilators has not skyrocketed.  In fact, we are using ventilators WAY less than anticipated, despite the incentive for hospitals to use them more.   It is not hospital administrators who decide if a patient goes on a ventilator or dies from Covid.  Doctors would have to commit fraud without financial incentive. 

Guess who is ultimately responsible for paying hospitals more?  T-man.  He is the boss man.  And this is one area I actually agree with him on.  They should get paid more for more expensive care. 
 

  

  

Edited by pogi
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6 minutes ago, pogi said:

In other words, you are a science denier. 

Oh contrary.   I am a science supporter.    I hire scientists all the time for my work.  I publish critiques of articles which lack sufficient statistical analysis.  

Don't trust the government science.

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13 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

Oh contrary.   I am a science supporter.    I hire scientists all the time for my work.  I publish critiques of articles which lack sufficient statistical analysis.  

Don't trust the government science.

Yes, I trust science from the greedy private sector way more :rolleyes:

You can trust the unregulated "science" of herbal and supplemental providers, etc.   Lets go back to the good ol' snake oil days where unregulated greed ran science.  Great idea Bob!

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44 minutes ago, Calm said:

... Now if someone was outright lying and bribing a doctor to falsify records...I imagine the risk of losing funding, their job, criminal charges, etc outweighs the benefit.  [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969.]

That's always the case for anyone who commits any sort of fraud whatsoever ... and yet it still happens, much more frequently than one would expect despite those potential consequences.  (This is a derail, so let's not go further down this rabbit hole ...)

Edited by Kenngo1969
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2 minutes ago, pogi said:

Yes, I trust science from the greedy private sector way more :rolleyes:

You can trust the unregulated "science" of herbal and supplemental providers, etc.   Lets go back to the good ol' snake oil days where unregulated greed ran science.  Great idea Bob!

"Greedy private sector?"   Socialism just doesn't work for science.  

People get a lot of subjective satisfaction out of herb and supplements, although I think it is all bunk.  

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21 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

That's always the case for anyone who commits any sort of fraud whatsoever ... and yet it still happens, much more frequently than one would expect.  

True, but the incentive doesn't prove fraud.  There has to be evidence of fraud before we can make the claim that Covid numbers are indeed inflated due to fraud.  We all have incentive to commit fraud.  That doesn't make us criminals.  One hospital committing fraud wouldn't even be enough to hardly make a dent in inflating overall Covid death numbers.  There would have to be wide-spread systemic fraud in nearly every hospital system in the US.  I just don't buy it.  It would be exposed at that level of fraud. 

Also, keep in mind...where is the financial incentive for the doctors and coroners who would ultimately be accountable for the fraud?  Where is the incentive?

Edited by pogi
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13 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

"Greedy private sector?" 

Yes, the unregulated private sector would be the death of science.  Greed would be why.  

13 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

although I think it is all bunk.  

Private sector science hard at work!

Edited by pogi
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37 minutes ago, pogi said:

True, but the incentive doesn't prove fraud.  There has to be evidence of fraud before we can make the claim that Covid numbers are indeed inflated due to fraud.  We all have incentive to commit fraud.  That doesn't make us criminals.  One hospital committing fraud wouldn't even be enough to hardly make a dent in inflating overall Covid death numbers.  There would have to be wide-spread systemic fraud in nearly every hospital system in the US.  I just don't buy it.  It would be exposed at that level of fraud. 

Also, keep in mind...where is the financial incentive for the doctors and coroners who would ultimately be accountable for the fraud?  Where is the incentive?

I never made the allegation that anyone is engaged in fraud.  I asked a simple question, and I made a general observation about fraud in relation to something Calm said.  That was it.  I will step out of the thread.  I'm sure it will be locked pretty quickly, anyway. <_<:rolleyes:

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1 hour ago, pogi said:

Hospitals do get paid more if the patient is on medicare. 

Should be noted that hospitals don’t get paid as much for Medicare patients (iirc the claim is 80% of what they charge) and in some cases lose money, so there is good reason to give them additional funds in order for them to be able to afford taking extra precautions.  By getting this funding, they don’t have to inflate the costs of patients with private insurance which they currently do to cover the gap with lower reimbursement for Medicare patients. 

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One of the reasons I find the Book of Mormon a fascination piece of literature and scripture is its defense of personal freedom and responsibility.   Free will.   

In Joseph Smith's day, religious academics debated free will versus predestination.  The Book of Mormon is a good response on the free will side.

Pogi argues for socialized medicine, socialized government services, socialized employment (everybody's a government worker) and socialized scientific investigation.   I suppose an argument can be made for such malarky, but I don't see it.

You want better health care?   Get the government out of setting Medicare rates.  It is one thing to provide health care for seniors, and another to dictate when and whether a kidney transplant will be allowed.  

You want a better response to COVID 19?  The last thing government should do is shut down the economy, as the collateral consequences far outweigh the risk of viral infection.  As Jesus said, "The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me."  We will always have viruses and risks of plague and infection, but we should focus ourselves on making ourselves right with God and let the economy deal with the virus risk.

Edited by Bob Crockett
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29 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I never made the allegation that anyone is engaged in fraud.  I asked a simple question, and I made a general observation about fraud in relation to something Calm said.  That was it.  I will step out of the thread.  I'm sure it will be locked pretty quickly, anyway. <_<:rolleyes:

My comments were more directed at other's here who have made the claim.  I was equally speaking to them.  At the same time, I was also addressing your question, which addresses the potential suspicion of fraud.  I hope I was able to address your questions to your satisfaction and relieve any potential suspicion of systemic fraud (which would be required to have any significant effect on numbers), if there was indeed any question on your part.  

Edited by pogi
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7 minutes ago, pogi said:

My comments were more directed at other's here who have made the claim.  I was equally speaking to them.  At the same time, I was also addressing your question, which addresses the potential suspicion of fraud.  I hope I was able to address your questions to your satisfaction and relieve any potential suspicion of systemic fraud (which would be required to have any significant effect on numbers), if there was indeed any question on your part.  

Whatever. :rolleyes: As I said, I'm out.  Ya'all have fun!

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17 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

Pogi argues for socialized medicine, socialized government services, socialized employment (everybody's a government worker) and socialized scientific investigation. 

Now this is just silly.  

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1 hour ago, Bob Crockett said:

Pogi argues for socialized medicine, socialized government services, socialized employment (everybody's a government worker) and socialized scientific investigation.   I suppose an argument can be made for such malarky, but I don't see it.

For being such a socialist, it is odd that I only voted for 2 fairly moderate democrats (one is my boss, so I am biased).  

Every single one of the candidates I voted for won :yahoo:...one is still TBA - but hopeful. 

People think they have me pegged, but you don't know me. 

Edited by pogi
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6 hours ago, pogi said:

People think they have me pegged, but you don't know me. 

I read probably most your posts (there are only a very few posters I glaze over with or purposely ignore) and outside Covid stuff where you take the science route all the time from my view, you surprise me on a regular basis.

Edited by Calm
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