An Iconic Native American Stone Tool Technology Discovered in Arabia

[Rajah Manchou]

Yet another thing that just isn’t possible, so it must not be cultural sharing:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/08/200805160938.htm

[Meadowchik]

Really interesting! It reminds me of ideas I have from time to time. "This would make a great app!" Yet I start looking around and find that I'm not the first to think of it! It already exists and I can buy it.

Similarly, as intelligent, social, upright creatures who survive by hunting and gathering with opposable thumbs, it's not surprising to me that separate groups of prehistoric human beings have independently invented similar tools.

[Rajah Manchou]

57 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Really interesting! It reminds me of ideas I have from time to time. "This would make a great app!" Yet I start looking around and find that I'm not the first to think of it! It already exists and I can buy it.

Similarly, as intelligent, social, upright creatures who survive by hunting and gathering with opposable thumbs, it's not surprising to me that separate groups of prehistoric human beings have independently invented similar tools.

True, but you share a common culture with those app developers. What this is saying is that two groups of creatures who never shared anything with each other spontaneously came up with the same app.

Fluted points have been one of those apps that anthropologists have touted as unique to the Americas. Given the time frames, I feel that it is more likely that prehistoric human beings were far more mobile than we allow and the idea for this particular app was shared. The more recent papers on pre-Clovis American ghost populations support this argument.

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/73000-no-longer-speculation-native-americans-mixed-with-polynesians/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-1209985081

[Meadowchik]

18 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

True, but you share a common culture with those app developers. What this is saying is that two groups of creatures who never shared anything with each other spontaneously came up with the same app.

Fluted points have been one of those apps that anthropologists have touted as unique to the Americas. Given the time frames, I feel that it is more likely that prehistoric human beings were far more mobile than we allow and the idea for this particular app was shared. The more recent papers on pre-Clovis American ghost populations support this argument.

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/73000-no-longer-speculation-native-americans-mixed-with-polynesians/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-1209985081

Well like my second point addresses, humans everywhere still share many characteristics, which will inevitably result in similar adaptation sometimes.

[strappinglad]

Convergent evolution no doubt!

[Ahab]

9 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Yet another thing that just isn’t possible, so it must not be cultural sharing:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/08/200805160938.htm

Nephi probably dropped some arrows, with stone points on them, sometime before he built a ship and came over to the American continent.  Or maybe it was Zoram, or Ishmael, pr Laman, or Lemuel.  Were there any initials on those stone arrow points they found?

[california boy]

9 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

True, but you share a common culture with those app developers. What this is saying is that two groups of creatures who never shared anything with each other spontaneously came up with the same app.

Fluted points have been one of those apps that anthropologists have touted as unique to the Americas. Given the time frames, I feel that it is more likely that prehistoric human beings were far more mobile than we allow and the idea for this particular app was shared. The more recent papers on pre-Clovis American ghost populations support this argument.

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/73000-no-longer-speculation-native-americans-mixed-with-polynesians/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-1209985081

Since the native Americans used it approximately 2,000 to 6,,000 years before the Arabs, maybe some Jaradite returned back to the homeland and brought that technology with him?  What is your speculation on how this might tie in with the Book of Mormon?  

I think I am going to go with Medowchik's guess

Quote

Well like my second point addresses, humans everywhere still share many characteristics, which will inevitably result in similar adaptation sometimes.

 

[Rajah Manchou]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

Since the native Americans used it approximately 2,000 to 6,,000 years before the Arabs, maybe some Jaradite returned back to the homeland and brought that technology with him?  What is your speculation on how this might tie in with the Book of Mormon?  

Nothing specific. I'm just curious about all the new papers coming out challenging the long-held view that the Americas were completely empty until a small group crossed over and were sealed off some from the rest of the world for 13000 years. Two years ago, that was the dominant hypothesis. Now we know that there were humans there 25,000 years ago, there were multiple migrations back and forth across the Bering Strait and also contact with the Pacific Islands before Columbus. America was not exactly a "New World". 

[mfbukowski]

Has anyone else here actually flaked arrowheads? As a survival freak, I have.  

To me fluting just seems like an obvious technique to securely seat the arrowhead without having it wiggle around. 

[gav]

24 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Has anyone else here actually flaked arrowheads? As a survival freak, I have.  

To me fluting just seems like an obvious technique to securely seat the arrowhead without having it wiggle around. 

Yes, and agreed, if there is a common problem it's not hard for people and even animals and biology to come up with similar solutions independently. We as a church are founded on principles of revelation and inspiration, intervention from the other realms etc..

[JamesBYoung]

Human beings are incredibly inventive and have demonstrated they intend to survive.

It should not be surprising nor disturbing that independent inventions occur in different, non-connected cultures.

 

 

[mfbukowski]

14 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Nothing specific. I'm just curious about all the new papers coming out challenging the long-held view that the Americas were completely empty until a small group crossed over and were sealed off some from the rest of the world for 13000 years. Two years ago, that was the dominant hypothesis. Now we know that there were humans there 25,000 years ago, there were multiple migrations back and forth across the Bering Strait and also contact with the Pacific Islands before Columbus. America was not exactly a "New World". 

Well, you know me, I have to turn everything into philosophy and how the world as we know it  is a social construction, and cannot really be anything more or less than human perceptions of what we think of as "reality" while reality as it is cannot be experienced- at least on this side of the veil.

It's kind of like statistics on "new species" of fish recently "discovered" while these species have been sold in fish markets for centuries.

https://news.mongabay.com/2019/10/new-grouper-species-discovered-in-australian-fish-market/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/melissacristinamarquez/2019/01/28/new-species-of-shark-found-in-fish-market/#73044f50741d

Quote

Another week, another new shark species! While many can believe that scientists find new species in the ocean, swimming around freely… that isn’t always the case. In fact, it is rarely the case. The place where most researchers find new species is in fish markets.

So in what sense does a new species or continent "exist" - to us- if it has not be "discovered"?

Wait- I think I heard a tree falling in the forest....  

And still we rely on "scientific facts" or "his-story" for proof of the "truth"?  How obviously misguided is that belief?  Hearsay reigns supreme unfortunately.

"You got a theory,

I got a theory 

All God's children got a theory...  " 

 

Edited August 7, 2020 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, gav said:

Yes, and agreed, if there is a common problem it's not hard for people and even animals and biology to come up with similar solutions independently. We as a church are founded on principles of revelation and inspiration, intervention from the other realms etc..

And yet another theory. 

Some day we have to grow up and realize is all we have is our senses AND something else deep inside us that speaks to us, that is as "real" as anything else.

[Meadowchik]

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Has anyone else here actually flaked arrowheads? As a survival freak, I have.  

To me fluting just seems like an obvious technique to securely seat the arrowhead without having it wiggle around. 

 

8 hours ago, JamesBYoung said:

Human beings are incredibly inventive and have demonstrated they intend to survive.

It should not be surprising nor disturbing that independent inventions occur in different, non-connected cultures.

 

 

Yes, and fluting is not unlike nail beds for fingernails or claws. A spear or arrow is like an artificial claw. Their "art" imitates life.

[RevTestament]

On 8/6/2020 at 3:11 AM, Rajah Manchou said:

Yet another thing that just isn’t possible, so it must not be cultural sharing:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/08/200805160938.htm

Except the authors conclude that it is not cultural sharing:

The sites of Manayzah and Ad-Dahariz yielded dozens of fluted points. The Arabian examples date to the Neolithic period, about 8,000 to 7,000 years ago, at least two thousand years later than the American examples. As Professor Petraglia of the Max Planck explains, "Given their age and the fact that the fluted points from America and Arabia are separated by thousands of kilometers, there is no possible cultural connection between them. This is then a clear and excellent example of cultural convergence, or independent invention in human history."

"'Arabian and American fluted point technologies were highly specialized stone tool production methods. The PLOS ONE study of Arabian fluting technology demonstrates that similar innovations and inventions were developed under different circumstances and that such highly-skilled and convergent production methods can have different anthropological implications.'"

I guess your point is that it can be cultural sharing, but scientists conclude it is not in order to hold the status quo?

Edited August 10, 2020 by RevTestament