Families Are Forever . or Not

[The Nehor]

It scares me that people imagine that members of non-western culture are basically depraved and believe that everyone in western culture are one faith crisis away from giving in to their urges for rape and murder.

[The Nehor]

15 hours ago, alter idem said:

I believe most religions teach of an afterlife so naturally people have hope to see their loved ones.

This is true but most afterlives are not particularly pleasant. Hinduism, Jainish, and Buddhism basically say you will cease to be by being melded into some greater whole which basically means you do not exist. Failure means continuing to exist. These religions hold out the goal of ceasing to exist as the highest objective. Shinto generally has a dark view of the next life. Reincarnation and absorption offer little hope of glad meetings with loved ones in any case.

The Greek pagan underworld posits a meaningless afterlife. You become a ghost but you are so insensible and witless that it might as well not be you. The Romans and Norse had afterlives of failure and success based on your deeds. Jews at times lost their belief in an afterlife. Christianity and Islam have the most robust afterlives.

Afterlives are common but they are not always a reward and often do not involve reunion with loved ones.

[Hamba Tuhan]

29 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Christianity and Islam have the most robust afterlives.

Afterlives are common but they are not always a reward and often do not involve reunion with loved ones.

I got on this topic once, as a PhD student, with my Catholic officemate. He assured me that in his belief, he was going to be so distracted by the vision of God that he would never even recognise his wife in the next life -- which I sensed was a relief to him.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I got on this topic once, as a PhD student, with my Catholic officemate. He assured me that in his belief, he was going to be so distracted by the vision of God that he would never even recognise his wife in the next life -- which I sensed was a relief to him.

Never understood why loving God involves making people forget things and makes them stupid. I assumed it was a clear and willing and intelligent love.

[alter idem]

16 hours ago, Calm said:

It was being next to her family, not which cemetery he asked her about. That could be for two reasons...one was whether or not she had feelings about him being emotionally included in her immediate family because of location, another which my mother had to consider was limited spots left and if one person in the family is buried there later on another may not be.
 

We don’t know what the past relationship had been like between the two. Maybe the brother was aware of past conflicts that he didn’t want to awake when they were visiting their daughter’s grave.
 

My dad and therefore mom are buried in my dad’s parents’ plots, as they had purchased enough from other family members so they could be buried with their kids...but that means my parents will not be. Which I don’t think bugs any of us thankfully. Family plots seem more of a time when families lived in the same town and place most of their lives.   I admit when I was a teen and heard my grandparents planning this, it hurt a bit they didn’t seem to care about their grandkids being with them as if they didn’t see us as really belonging to them. 

You're right, he did call to ask if it was ok for her parents to choose plots next to her daughter's grave, but unlike your situation, (that's mine too; there's no room in the cemetery where my parents and ancestors are buried)  she explains there are plenty of plots. She said she, her husband,  his family etc will all be buried there; it suggests they all had plots or graves already, so I assume this wasn’t about crowding other family out. From rereading the op, to make sure I'm not forgetting, I interpret this to be about her leaving the church a year before, but sadly, and maybe more specifically,  her belief that she 'was never the daughter (her) father wanted' and she 'didn't fit in with (her) left brain family'. This may have more to do with her personal feelings of isolation and being a disappointment, along with her leaving the faith.

From what she wrote about taking the sacrament at the care facility,  her parents didn't know she no longer attended church,  she admitted she 'hadn't talked openly about (her) faith transition ' with them. But, I bet her brother knew, and he is the one who thought she might object to her parents being buried next to her daughter and the area she would be buried. He wasn't going to tell the parents if she objected, but would instead steer them to another part of the cemetery. It would seem the conflicts were more likely within herself, especially since her Dad chose to be buried near where she would be buried.

  I don't know, but I hope she gains confidence that her Father's true feelings for her were maybe not so harsh as she thinks. I hope she recognizes that regardless of what she believes, what matters more is that her Father believed he would see her again and so he chose to be near her for when the resurrection comes. Imo

[Islander]

On 5/9/2020 at 2:59 PM, mfbukowski said:

Yes, I like Berlinski's work  lot. He takes a lot from Nagel, Rorty, Wittgenstein et al.

If we could just get more people studying real philosophy instead of watching videos from idiots like Dawkins, there would no longer be a need for apologetics.

It's such a shame. 

True. We can only hope

[alter idem]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

This is true but most afterlives are not particularly pleasant. Hinduism, Jainish, and Buddhism basically say you will cease to be by being melded into some greater whole which basically means you do not exist. Failure means continuing to exist. These religions hold out the goal of ceasing to exist as the highest objective. Shinto generally has a dark view of the next life. Reincarnation and absorption offer little hope of glad meetings with loved ones in any case.

The Greek pagan underworld posits a meaningless afterlife. You become a ghost but you are so insensible and witless that it might as well not be you. The Romans and Norse had afterlives of failure and success based on your deeds. Jews at times lost their belief in an afterlife. Christianity and Islam have the most robust afterlives.

Afterlives are common but they are not always a reward and often do not involve reunion with loved ones.

I don't think that's accurate to say their belief in an afterlife is all unpleasant, as  they believe in reward and punishment, so there isn't just the negative which you gave examples of.  In some eastern  religions the ultimate reward is to achieve Nirvana, or Moksha. But this isn't unpleasant, it is sought after, as one explanation describes it as eternal bliss and peace to be one with this realm. You might equate that with ceasing to exist, but I think they may not perceive it as no longer existing but instead, giving up their individual identity to become a part of an eternal realm. Also they believe in reincarnation so most expect to live again after death, many times. That certainly isn't what the op described in saying we're just irrevocably gone. To me, that's what cease to exist is.

[Fair Dinkum]

I asked my father, a life long dedicated member of the church, just prior to his death what his thoughts were as he faced this last test.  His words shocked me, "When you're dead, you're dead".  Despite being for all outward appearances an active believing member of the church, at some point my father had abandoned faith when confronted with his own imminent death and become a secular  humanist. 

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I asked my father, a life long dedicated member of the church, just prior to his death what his thoughts were as he faced this last test.  His words shocked me, "When you're dead, you're dead".  Despite being for all outward appearances an active believing member of the church, at some point my father had abandoned faith when confronted with his own imminent death and become a secular  humanist. 

It might be the best approach for many people, intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually, to live as if this life is important, as important as if it is all there is. 

 

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, alter idem said:

I don't think that's accurate to say their belief in an afterlife is all unpleasant, as  they believe in reward and punishment, so there isn't just the negative which you gave examples of.  In some eastern  religions the ultimate reward is to achieve Nirvana, or Moksha. But this isn't unpleasant, it is sought after, as one explanation describes it as eternal bliss and peace to be one with this realm. You might equate that with ceasing to exist, but I think they may not perceive it as no longer existing but instead, giving up their individual identity to become a part of an eternal realm. Also they believe in reincarnation so most expect to live again after death, many times. That certainly isn't what the op described in saying we're just irrevocably gone. To me, that's what cease to exist is.

Many faiths have no positive rewarding afterlife. Reincarnation is held as a curse. The whole point is to stop living. Nirvana is described as a drop (the individual) falling into an ocean. If that metaphor holds the drop ceases to exist. Giving up your individual identity also is ceasing to exist.

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

It might be the best approach for many people, intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually, to live as if this life is important, as important as if it is all there is. 

Nope, that would lead me straight to despair.

[alter idem]

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Many faiths have no positive rewarding afterlife. Reincarnation is held as a curse. The whole point is to stop living. Nirvana is described as a drop (the individual) falling into an ocean. If that metaphor holds the drop ceases to exist. Giving up your individual identity also is ceasing to exist.

Nope, that would lead me straight to despair.

I think you are maybe misunderstanding if you think their belief in reincarnation is always that it's a curse.  They don't see it as a curse to be reincarnated to a better, richer, happier life, it's a reward, and the person hopes for a better life each time they die, that's what they are working toward. And Nirvana doesn't hold the negative connotation of 'you're just dead, you cease to exist'. Instead it is a level of enlightenment attained by reincarnation into better lives, to eventually reach the point to no longer reincarnate but become one with this higher plane or realm, described by one source as eternal bliss.

 

[Meadowchik]

18 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Nope, that would lead me straight to despair.

That's what I thought too, as a theist. Perhaps the changes that accompany the move from theism to atheism can offer different supports than the ones relied on in theism.

 

[Teancum]

On 5/9/2020 at 7:25 PM, alter idem said:

People who have 'Transitioned beyond faith' don't need to feel sad for me, as I haven't felt the need to write an essay about how I'm coping with the deaths of my loved ones. Maybe my faith makes me a simpleton, but I'm a happy simpleton.☺️

You missed the point I think.

[The Nehor]

21 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

That's what I thought too, as a theist. Perhaps the changes that accompany the move from theism to atheism can offer different supports than the ones relied on in theism.

More likely I am just a miserable person.

26 minutes ago, alter idem said:

I think you are maybe misunderstanding if you think their belief in reincarnation is always that it's a curse.  They don't see it as a curse to be reincarnated to a better, richer, happier life, it's a reward, and the person hopes for a better life each time they die, that's what they are working toward. And Nirvana doesn't hold the negative connotation of 'you're just dead, you cease to exist'. Instead it is a level of enlightenment attained by reincarnation into better lives, to eventually reach the point to no longer reincarnate but become one with this higher plane or realm, described by one source as eternal bliss.

Working towards a better life because a better life is more likely to get you out.

[Meadowchik]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

More likely I am just a miserable person.

Could be. Misery can happen to the menschiest of mensch.

Edited May 12, 2020 by Meadowchik

[alter idem]

45 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

More likely I am just a miserable person.

Working towards a better life because a better life is more likely to get you out.

I don't know.  I think if you asked a person who belonged to one of these religions, they wouldn't agree that all they want to do is get through as many lives as they can so they can cease to exist.  Seems like a pretty jaded perception of eastern religions.  And, I don't believe these religions teach their followers to look forward to a future of misery because that's all that reincarnation and then oblivion have to offer.  Rather, I expect some are probably as devoted to their religion as I am to mine, and it brings them happiness to think of trying to follow their religious tenets so that they can attain what they believe will be a better life to come, either being reincarnated or joining the enlightened realm in eternal bliss.  I think their religious views offer hope also, maybe a different outcome, than a christian view, but hope and happiness as they see it, none the less.  

[Meadowchik]

I am very grateful that exmormon voices have platforms like this where they can speak openly and candidly. Like members sharing testimonies can uplift other members, exmormons sharing positive steps of growth after Mormonism can uplift others who are also facing life after Mormonism.

And, facing death from this different perspective is like facing it anew. There are many who, after leaving, find that they need to revisit the grief over the loss of their loved ones and mourn anew, because their grief management is very different outside those previous beliefs. 

It sounds to me like Mette Harrison is working to cultivate her family relationships despite not "fitting in" to the shared religious paradigm. I can relate to that and it is valuable for me to hear her story. I hope that believing members can also appreciate the efforts of their exmormon loved ones who continue to try to cultivate relationships, despite the loss of being able to share religion together. It takes work to do that, mutual work, and I think people from both positions can have rich contributions to each other's lives and perspectives. It sounds like Mette felt that mutual effort in her family and I am happy for them all.

[stemelbow]

On 5/11/2020 at 1:29 AM, The Nehor said:

This is true but most afterlives are not particularly pleasant. Hinduism, Jainish, and Buddhism basically say you will cease to be by being melded into some greater whole which basically means you do not exist. Failure means continuing to exist. These religions hold out the goal of ceasing to exist as the highest objective. Shinto generally has a dark view of the next life. Reincarnation and absorption offer little hope of glad meetings with loved ones in any case.

The Greek pagan underworld posits a meaningless afterlife. You become a ghost but you are so insensible and witless that it might as well not be you. The Romans and Norse had afterlives of failure and success based on your deeds. Jews at times lost their belief in an afterlife. Christianity and Islam have the most robust afterlives.

Afterlives are common but they are not always a reward and often do not involve reunion with loved ones.

If the parable of the 10 virgins carries any weight with believers, then a good half of believers will one day be coldly told that God never knew them.  All their prayers, all their devotion will be for naught, at that day, since they failed somehow or someway to get something as vague as oil in their lamps.  Couple that with the notion that if you don't get coldly scolded for lukewarmness (everyone's lukewarm) or something else, you have to live privileged while most others do not.  It doesn't sound very fun to sit perched on a pedestal for arbitrary reasons--such a position carries it's own hell.  

Edited May 12, 2020 by stemelbow

[SteveO]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

If the parable of the 10 virgins carries any weight with believers, then a good half of believers will one day be coldly told that God never knew them.  All their prayers, all their devotion will be for naught, at that day, since they failed somehow or someway to get something as vague as oil in their lamps.  Couple that with the notion that if you don't get coldly scolded for lukewarmness (everyone's lukewarm) or something else, you have to live privileged while most others do not.  It doesn't sound very fun to sit perched on a pedestal for arbitrary reasons--such a position carries it's own hell.  

You don’t have ears...

[stemelbow]

33 minutes ago, SteveO said:

You don’t have ears...

What ought we do if we have not ears to hear?  Others shall mock us because we can't hear the squeakings of Jesus, Jesus shall condemn us for hearing his nonsense.  And we have no solutions for the broken ears God granted us.  

Edited May 12, 2020 by stemelbow

[SteveO]

5 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

What ought we do if we have not ears to hear?  Others shall mock us because we can't hear the squeakings of Jesus, Jesus shall condemn us for hearing his nonsense.  And we have no solutions for the broken ears God granted us.  
 

 

Unfortunately, that attitude isn’t new.  Some interesting personalities  from the Book of Mormon said it better...although, when I say “interesting personalities”, it’s a charitable way of saying that they prolly sucked to be around at Nephite birthday parties.

Fortunately, you have access to a wide variety of solutions offered in response.  I invite you to search them out and apply them.  
 

Be happy.  Be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, SteveO said:

 

Fortunately, you have access to a wide variety of solutions offered in response.  I invite you to search them out and apply them.  
 

 

Start me out.  What is one solution?  

[smac97]

5 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I am very grateful that exmormon voices have platforms like this where they can speak openly and candidly.

So am I.  I have learned a lot from those voices.

Quote

Like members sharing testimonies can uplift other members, exmormons sharing positive steps of growth after Mormonism can uplift others who are also facing life after Mormonism.

Some people will leave the Church, and we can and should hope they find positive ways forward.  

Quote

And, facing death from this different perspective is like facing it anew. There are many who, after leaving, find that they need to revisit the grief over the loss of their loved ones and mourn anew, because their grief management is very different outside those previous beliefs. 

Yes, a new framework will bring a new need to contemplate the ramifications of death.

Quote

It sounds to me like Mette Harrison is working to cultivate her family relationships despite not "fitting in" to the shared religious paradigm. I can relate to that and it is valuable for me to hear her story. I hope that believing members can also appreciate the efforts of their exmormon loved ones who continue to try to cultivate relationships, despite the loss of being able to share religion together. It takes work to do that, mutual work, and I think people from both positions can have rich contributions to each other's lives and perspectives. It sounds like Mette felt that mutual effort in her family and I am happy for them all.

I am saddened for her.  I find her framework materially less hopeful, and considerably more bleak and nihilistic, than the alternative.  Nevertheless, I am glad that folks like her (and you) can function within that framework without succumbing to its ramifications.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited May 12, 2020 by smac97

[SteveO]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Start me out.  What is one solution?  

Ok, I’ll get serious.

You can start by reading Alma’s counsel to compare the word to a seed...

 

Quarantine has truly been a personal blessing in disguise.  I know, I know.  It’s terrible what’s going on out there, and I’d prefer it not to have happened.  But we’ve been given the opportunity to a large amount of time we otherwise don’t, or claim not to have.  And I was watching a YouTube video about how in a year from now, people are either going to be worse off, pretty much the same, or improved (in terms of developing themselves).  I figured what a tragedy it would be if I found myself to be worse or no better off a year from now.  And so I decided to get serious about my religious observances.  I knew something was wrong when I kind of shrugged at the prospect of sacrament at home.  I was kind of “what’s the big deal”?  

Always believed the church to be true.  Had spiritual witnesses before.  Always paid my tithing.  But anyone can get complacent.  Even after years of church membership.  You start thinking the small things aren’t worth taking the time to do or observe.  You start to get the mentality of Naaman, that there has to be this big occasion or event that precedes a renewal of faith.  

You know the scriptures.  I don’t have to copy and paste them.  It really is just doing the simple things.  Waking up early in the morning and consecrating my first waking hours to scripture study and prayer, both personally and together with my wife.  It’s a no brainer, it’s literally the most cost effective positive one can add to their lives.  Why people stop doing it at any point in their lives (including myself) is mystifying.

Then it’s the media we were consuming.  Watching and listening indiscriminately to anything that looked interesting.  Countless hours mindlessly surfing the internet, social media, etc.  I am convinced God tries to speak to us more often than we’ve ever suspected, but it gets drowned out.  Actual Sabbath observance and fasting (I’ve neglected both far too long).  Cleaned up my language, started meditating, which has been a hot trend lately.  Interestingly, every modern prophet has  counseled meditation and quiet to commune with the divine.  We were counseled to do it, long before it was cool IOW.

None of these neglects made me a bad person. But it didn’t make me a good member of the church.  I was unengaged, and just coasting.  This church won’t amount to much in our eyes if we aren’t willing to pay the price to have the Spirit with us.  Being a casual member, the church IS a burden.  It IS overwhelming.  It DOES become a grind.  It DOES become an exercise of just going through the motions.

And because I started to pull my head out of the sand and get serious, lots of other things have happened.  Finally have a desire to serve.  I moved out to Virginia for work right when quarantine hit, so I don’t know anyone in my ward or my bishop (he texted me though asking if we needed help moving, and if we had any hardship from COVID), but I have a strong desire to ask for home teaching names and volunteer for a calling if it’s needed.  Something I’ve never had much interest in doing since the mission.  You can’t “strengthen [your] brethren” without being converted first.

You might roll your eyes at all that.  But those are some of the things that constitute the “oil” we fill our lamps with.  Nobody can do it for you.  Nobody can make you.  If you’ve run out, go get more.  You know how.

You say most people are “lukewarm”.  Yeah they are.  I was.  The fact we fail as often as we do, is not evidence against the practicality of righteous living.  So don’t be lukewarm.  Have the faith to take the first step in making your life one of conversion.

[Meadowchik]

11 minutes ago, smac97 said:

So am I.  I have learned a lot from those voices.

Some people will leave the Church, and we can and should hope they find positive ways forward.  

Yes, a new framework will bring a new need to contemplate the ramifications of death.

I am saddened for her.  I find her framework materially less hopeful, and considerably more bleak and nihilistic, than the alternative.  Nevertheless, I am glad that folks like her (and you) can function within that framework without succumbing to its ramifications.

Thanks,

-Smac

Thanks, I appreciate it. However, if I could choose to go back to where I was mentally, I would still choose this. I think I am closer to goodness than before this way. And that is what always mattered ultimately to me then, and still does now.