Roots and Branches

[teddyaware]

About a week ago, while reading and deeply pondering the prophet Zenos’ Parable of the Olive Tree, as recorded in the Book of Mormon’s Jacob:5, I began to wonder about what the roots referred to in the parable symbolize. It was relatively easy for me to, once again, as I’d done many times before, identify the underlying meaning of all the other symbols employed throughout the allegory, but the underlying identity of who or what the roots represented had me stumped. So I went on an extensive web search in an attempt to discover what the official Church channels, and other knowledgeable members, had to say with regard the identity of what the roots symbolized.

After spending literally hours researching, I learned that the general consensus within the broader Church community is that the roots of the olive tree are believed to represent “the gospel covenants and promises the Lord makes with His children, a constant source of strength and life to the faithful” (Come Follow Me chapter 16). But this explanation didn’t sit right with me even though for many years it’s been more or less accepted as the official Church interpretation.

In spite of feeling unsettled on the matter, I decided to put my uneasiness aside and continue on with my reading of the Book of Mormon. But very soon after resuming my reading I was astonished and brought up short by the following most interesting verse found in Jacob:6

4 And how merciful is our God unto us, for he remembereth the house of Israel, both ROOTS and BRANCHES; and he stretches forth his hands unto them all the day long; and they are a stiffnecked and a gainsaying people; but as many as will not harden their hearts shall be saved in the kingdom of God. (Jacob 6)

Unless I’m missing something, it appears the prophet Jacob himself is testifying that the roots of the olive tree do not at all represent the covenants and promises of the Lord. Rather, just like the branches of the olive tree,  the roots represent particular human beings who are children of the house of Israel. Perhaps previous attempts to interpret the underlying meaning of the parable’s roots were arrived at as a consequence of focusing myopically on the contents of Jacob:5 alone without anyone ever realizing that the identity of what the roots symbolize is forthrightly disclosed in verse 4 of the following chapter?

Perhaps I’m way off base here, but if I’m correct the Parable of the Olive Vineyard is due for a substantial overhaul in interpretation. 

Two questions:

1) Does anyone think I’m incorrect in the above assessment, and if so why?

2) If you think my assessment is correct, to what members of the house of Israel do you think the roots might be referring.

 

 

Edited March 30, 2020 by teddyaware

[Bernard Gui]

Your analysis is very interesting. I agree that the explanation in CFM is not entirety satisfactory. It is a difficult question, but I have come to believe that the roots are the Patriarchs and the covenants made with them, in particular but not exclusively Abraham.

Edited March 30, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

It was relatively easy for me to, once again, as I’d done many times before, identify the underlying meaning of all the other symbols employed throughout the allegory, but the underlying identity of who or what the roots represented had me stumped.

No pun intended, right?  (ha!)

It's funny that you should bring this up (not not just in a "ha ha" way because of your pun, although that was pretty funny), but because I was just re-listening to the Come Follow Me family study and Sunday school study of Jacob 5-7 while I was on my walk yesterday and I was thinking about the very same thing.

The Book of Mormon Seminary Teacher Manual - Lesson 46, defines the roots of Jacob 5 as:

Quote

Individuals with whom the Lord covenanted anciently, such as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (see Jacob 6:4). Roots may also represent the covenants the Lord makes with those who follow Him.

And this BYU Studies article:  Explicating the Mystery of the Rejected Foundation Stone: The Allegory of the Olive Tree, by  Paul Y. Hoskisson, has this to say about the "root"  (pp. 77-78):

Quote

Several commentaries equate the roots with progenitors.  No doubt this interpretation comes from a posaic belief that if the word root means "progenitors" in Malachi 4:1, it must mean that in all scriptural contexts.  Departing from this interpretation, The Book of Mormon Student Manual suggests that the roots represent the covenants associated with the house of Israel.  I would suggest that the symbol of the roots represent a broader referent, namely, the gospel of Jesus Christ, including its covenants.  This suggestion is based on the assumption that the "good word of God" (the gospel) in Jacob 6:7 that nourished the tree must refer to the roots.

I am also reminded of Paul's reference to the "root" in Romans 11 in his discussion of the olive tree.  But Paul talks about the roots as being "holy", whereas Jacob 5 has them potentially failing.  An article on Book of Mormon Central by James E. Faulconer compares Jacob 5 with Romans 11, and in doing so he offers us some more things to consider regarding the "root".  This is from:  The Olive Tree and the Work of God:;Jacob 5 and Romans 11, pp. 350-51:

Quote

      A similar problem of interpretation is raised by the fact that Jacob 6:3 suggests a parallel between Jacob's people and the workers in the vineyard rather than between the trees or the branches of the trees and the workers, as one might expect if the parable is comparable to Paul's metaphor. And that problem is doubled by the fact that Jacob 6:4 speaks of Israel as both the root and the branches of the olive tree.

      For Paul, in contrast, Israel is the branches of the olive tree, branches that can be culled and replaced by Gentile branches, but Israel is not the root of the tree. In Romans, the root of the tree is holy and, presumably, unchangeable (Romans 11:16). Whatever branch is grafted into the tree becomes holy because of the strength of the root. One suspects that when mentioning the root of the tree, Paul has in mind either the covenant made with the fathers or, perhaps, the Savior. In Jacob, on the other hand, the root is anything but holy and changeless. It is about to perish (Jacob 6:8) and needs help in order to survive (Jacob 6:11, 54). The root nourishes the branches (Jacob 6:18, 34, 36, 54, and 59) and saves itself thereby (Jacob 6:18,54). In spite of that, it also is weak (as in Jacob 6:65) and it is overcome by the branches (Jacob 6:37, 48). At times the root is valuable (Jacob 6:4, 36, and 60); at other times it is worthless (Jacob 6:35).

      It may also be significant that Romans speaks of grafting the Gentiles into the tree, but Jacob does not. In fact, neither does Nephi, who explains that the Israelites will be grafted back in "by way of the Gentiles" (1 Nephi 15:17; cf. 15:13: "through the fulness of the Gentiles"). Though we commonly assume that the wild branches grafted into the trees in Jacob 5 are the Gentiles, there is no textual warrant in Jacob 5 for doing so. The presumed similarity of the parable to Romans 11 may be part of the reason for that reading. However, if we follow the reading suggested by Jacob 6 and such passages as 1 Nephi 10:12-14 and 15:13-16, perhaps we will read the workers in Zenos's parable, rather than the grafted branches, as representing the Gentiles. In contrast, Paul is explicit about the grafting in of the Gentiles.

I think Faulconer's comparison of the roots of Jacob 5 to Romans 11 is valuable, but it needs to be examined verse by verse, because otherwise it could be misleading in trying to understand the meaning of the roots.  For example, he says, "In Jacob... the root is anything but holy and changeless".  He refers to Jacob 6:8, where the roots are about to "perish", and needs help in order to survive (Jacob 6:11, 54), and so on.  If the roots are the gospel of Jesus Christ, including its covenants (as Hoskisson suggests), then this type of "root" might not literally perish, but it may be that it is taken from the earth or forgotten through apostasy (depending on how you read the allegory).

This doesn't really answer the question directly, but it tells me that nobody has a solid answer to your question.  Or at least not one that I've found so far.

Edited March 30, 2020 by InCognitus

[CV75]

8 hours ago, teddyaware said:

About a week ago, while reading and deeply pondering the prophet Zenos’ Parable of the Olive Tree, as recorded in the Book of Mormon’s Jacob:5, I began to wonder about what the roots referred to in the parable symbolize. It was relatively easy for me to, once again, as I’d done many times before, identify the underlying meaning of all the other symbols employed throughout the allegory, but the underlying identity of who or what the roots represented had me stumped. So I went on an extensive web search in an attempt to discover what the official Church channels, and other knowledgeable members, had to say with regard the identity of what the roots symbolized.

After spending literally hours researching, I learned that the general consensus within the broader Church community is that the roots of the olive tree are believed to represent “the gospel covenants and promises the Lord makes with His children, a constant source of strength and life to the faithful” (Come Follow Me chapter 16). But this explanation didn’t sit right with me even though for many years it’s been more or less accepted as the official Church interpretation.

In spite of feeling unsettled on the matter, I decided to put my uneasiness aside and continue on with my reading of the Book of Mormon. But very soon after resuming my reading I was astonished and brought up short by the following most interesting verse found in Jacob:6

4 And how merciful is our God unto us, for he remembereth the house of Israel, both ROOTS and BRANCHES; and he stretches forth his hands unto them all the day long; and they are a stiffnecked and a gainsaying people; but as many as will not harden their hearts shall be saved in the kingdom of God. (Jacob 6)

Unless I’m missing something, it appears the prophet Jacob himself is testifying that the roots of the olive tree do not at all represent the covenants and promises of the Lord. Rather, just like the branches of the olive tree,  the roots represent particular human beings who are children of the house of Israel. Perhaps previous attempts to interpret the underlying meaning of the parable’s roots were arrived at as a consequence of focusing myopically on the contents of Jacob:5 alone without anyone ever realizing that the identity of what the roots symbolize is forthrightly disclosed in verse 4 of the following chapter?

Perhaps I’m way off base here, but if I’m correct the Parable of the Olive Vineyard is due for a substantial overhaul in interpretation. 

Two questions:

1) Does anyone think I’m incorrect in the above assessment, and if so why?

2) If you think my assessment is correct, to what members of the house of Israel do you think the roots might be referring.

I've had the same thoughts.

1) No, but I do not think it is only one or the other, either.

2) My take is that the covenants (roots) are embedded in the spirit children of God in a preparatory sense which is subsequently fulfilled again (or reclaimed) in the flesh, in similar fashion as what is taught in Alma 13. This is how children can be born in the covenant and gentiles can be adopted into the covenant. The name Israel is simply a convenience for the story, as the same covenant that was preparatory in our spirit existence was introduced again in the flesh with each new dispensation. and beginning long before the organization of Israel under Jacob, as with Adam and subsequent patriarchs. Israel was the last of the patriarchal order before the Restoration, and so is our familial reference point.

Where Israels' root is Adam, and in the spirit existence Christ, the root refers to all the covenant people of God who bring forth branches, however it is they made the covenant or posterity (some branches are the shoots off the body, and some are converts grafted in). The branches would be those covenant people who become roots themselves as the Gospel is perpetuated on both sides of the veil and even after the resurrection as gods perpetuate the race.

[teddyaware]

8 hours ago, InCognitus said:

No pun intended, right?  (ha!)

It's funny that you should bring this up (not not just in a "ha ha" way because of your pun, although that was pretty funny), but because I was just re-listening to the Come Follow Me family study and Sunday school study of Jacob 5-7 while I was on my walk yesterday and I was thinking about the very same thing.

The Book of Mormon Seminary Teacher Manual - Lesson 46, defines the roots of Jacob 5 as:

And this BYU Studies article:  Explicating the Mystery of the Rejected Foundation Stone: The Allegory of the Olive Tree, by  Paul Y. Hoskisson, has this to say about the "root"  (pp. 77-78):

I am also reminded of Paul's reference to the "root" in Romans 11 in his discussion of the olive tree.  But Paul talks about the roots as being "holy", whereas Jacob 5 has them potentially failing.  An article on Book of Mormon Central by James E. Faulconer compares Jacob 5 with Romans 11, and in doing so he offers us some more things to consider regarding the "root".  This is from:  The Olive Tree and the Work of God:;Jacob 5 and Romans 11, pp. 350-51:

I think Faulconer's comparison of the roots of Jacob 5 to Romans 11 is valuable, but it needs to be examined verse by verse, because otherwise it could be misleading in trying to understand the meaning of the roots.  For example, he says, "In Jacob... the root is anything but holy and changeless".  He refers to Jacob 6:8, where the roots are about to "perish", and needs help in order to survive (Jacob 6:11, 54), and so on.  If the roots are the gospel of Jesus Christ, including its covenants (as Hoskisson suggests), then this type of "root" might not literally perish, but it may be that it is taken from the earth or forgotten through apostasy (depending on how you read the allegory).

This doesn't really answer the question directly, but it tells me that nobody has a solid answer to your question.  Or at least not one that I've found so far.

Many thanks for your comprehensive response. But I must reply by saying that since the description of the changeable and imperiled roots in Zenos’ allegory does not at all comport in meaning with the constant source of spiritual strength and solace found in the covenants and promises of the Lord, and since Jacob himself tells us, in the plainest possible language, that the roots represent members of the house of Israel who will obtain salvation if they remain faithful, how can anyone reasonably conclude that the roots do not represent human beings who are members of the House of Israel? If Jacob tells us in language plain as day that the roots of the olive tree represent members of the House of Israel, why should anyone think otherwise? Why deny the publishing prophet his own clear and unambiguous interpretation?

Edited March 30, 2020 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I've had the same thoughts.

1) No, but I do not think it is only one or the other, either.

2) My take is that the covenants (roots) are embedded in the spirit children of God in a preparatory sense which is subsequently fulfilled again (or reclaimed) in the flesh, in similar fashion as what is taught in Alma 13. This is how children can be born in the covenant and gentiles can be adopted into the covenant. The name Israel is simply a convenience for the story, as the same covenant that was preparatory in our spirit existence was introduced again in the flesh with each new dispensation. and beginning long before the organization of Israel under Jacob, as with Adam and subsequent patriarchs. Israel was the last of the patriarchal order before the Restoration, and so is our familial reference point.

Where Israels' root is Adam, and in the spirit existence Christ, the root refers to all the covenant people of God who bring forth branches, however it is they made the covenant or posterity (some branches are the shoots off the body, and some are converts grafted in). The branches would be those covenant people who become roots themselves as the Gospel is perpetuated on both sides of the veil and even after the resurrection as gods perpetuate the race.

Just last night I found quotes from early General Authorities (I should have copied them) saying that the House Israel includes the early Patriarchs going all the way back to Adam, and that the House of Israel was actually established in the preexistence when the Lord foreordained his especially faithful spirit children to fulfill important roles in the kingdom of God in mortality..

[InCognitus]

48 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Many thanks for your comprehensive response. But I must reply by saying that since the description of the changeable and imperiled roots in Zenos’ allegory does not at all comport in meaning with the constant source of spiritual strength and solace found in the covenants and promises of the Lord, and since Jacob himself tells us, in the plainest possible language, that the roots represent members of the house of Israel who will obtain salvation if they remain faithful, how can anyone reasonably conclude that the roots do not represent human beings who are members of the House of Israel? If Jacob tells us in language plain as day that the roots of the olive tree represent members of the House of Israel, why should anyone think otherwise? Why deny the publishing prophet his own clear and unambiguous interpretation?

I agree with you, and I was just looking at what others have said and trying to make sense of it.  I have always considered the roots to be God's covenant people (Israel), which is also how Paul talks about the roots in Romans 11.  But to have a covenant people there has to be a covenant.  And maybe that's how the other explanations come about.

[CV75]

35 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Just last night I found quotes from early General Authorities (I should have copied them) saying that the House Israel includes the early Patriarchs going all the way back to Adam, and that the House of Israel was actually established in the preexistence when the Lord foreordained his especially faithful spirit children to fulfill important roles in the kingdom of God in mortality..

In a sense that is totally correct, which would answer your second question (and goes along with Alma 13). The use of the name "Israel" to identify the covenant children or family of God (House of God, Kingdom of God, etc.) began with the renaming of Jacob, though the concept is eternal. Jacob 5 refers to the apostasy, scattering and gathering of Israel taking place within a specific time frame that began with Israels' possession of the Promised Land following their 40 years in the wilderness.

[CV75]

10 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

I agree with you, and I was just looking at what others have said and trying to make sense of it.  I have always considered the roots to be God's covenant people (Israel), which is also how Paul talks about the roots in Romans 11.  But to have a covenant people there has to be a covenant.  And maybe that's how the other explanations come about.

If we look to Jesus as the covenant as we do the law, the light, the life, etc. then Jesus Himself can be seen as the root. What a tragedy it would be if He were so rejected that He would perish (in the sense that "the whole earth [would] be smitten with a curse and utterly wasted at his coming."). As far as Jacob 5 goes, Christ might be seen as both the Lord and the root, and this is a case of Him doing and hastening his own work.

[teddyaware]

54 minutes ago, CV75 said:

In a sense that is totally correct, which would answer your second question (and goes along with Alma 13). The use of the name "Israel" to identify the covenant children or family of God (House of God, Kingdom of God, etc.) began with the renaming of Jacob, though the concept is eternal. Jacob 5 refers to the apostasy, scattering and gathering of Israel taking place within a specific time frame that began with Israels' possession of the Promised Land following their 40 years in the wilderness.

Nevertheless, Jacob 6:4 tells us the roots are people who are numbered among the House of Israel. Therefore if the roots represent the patriarchs from Isaac back to Adam, then, by Jacob’s own word, they too are to be considered members of the House of Israel, undoubtedly because they are the prophet Israel’s indispensable ancestors. And why not, for how can one build a structurally sound, complete home without a foundation?

Edited March 30, 2020 by teddyaware

[CV75]

11 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Nevertheless, Jacob 6:4 tells us the roots are people who are numbered among the House of Israel. Therefore if the roots represent the patriarchs from Isaac back to Adam, then, by Jacob’s own word, they too are to be considered members of the House of Israel, undoubtedly because they are the prophet Israel’s indispensable ancestors. And why not, for how can one build a structurally sound, complete home without a foundation?

While we may have gained that understanding from modern revelation, I think Zenos and Jacob were teaching a more immediate group of people (including us). For example, in 5:1-2, it seems that he is not including Israel's forefathers back to Adam as his audience. However, even in those days, one could understand the roots to be the God of Israel and His people as we do. Also, there were other apostasies and dispensations of restoration prior to those covered in Zenos' allegory, which covers only the OT scattering of Israel, the second scattering and Great Apostasy, and the final Restoration in the dispensation of the fulness of times.

[teddyaware]

44 minutes ago, CV75 said:

While we may have gained that understanding from modern revelation, I think Zenos and Jacob were teaching a more immediate group of people (including us). For example, in 5:1-2, it seems that he is not including Israel's forefathers back to Adam as his audience. However, even in those days, one could understand the roots to be the God of Israel and His people as we do. Also, there were other apostasies and dispensations of restoration prior to those covered in Zenos' allegory, which covers only the OT scattering of Israel, the second scattering and Great Apostasy, and the final Restoration in the dispensation of the fulness of times.

In the end, it doesn’t really matter who Zenos’ immediate audience may have been, because we know for sure that the Book of Mormon prophet Jacob testified to HIS immediate audience that the roots of the olive tree represent members of the house of Israel who will be heirs of salvation if faithful. So now it seems to me that our immediate responsibility is to expunge the erroneous interpretations from the Church manuals and get to the bottom of which members of the House of Israel the roots are referring to and how that knowledge will enable the Church to more fully and accurately interpret Zenos’ remarkable parable.

Edited March 30, 2020 by teddyaware

[longview]

Does John 15:1 thru 9 give a better perspective on Jacob 5?  From the chapter heading:

Jesus is the vine; His disciples are the branches (God the Father is the husbandman, differences between pruning and purging)
—He discourses on the perfect law of love—His servants have been chosen and ordained by Him—The world hates and fights true religion—He promises the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth.

It seems to me that the Lord of the Vineyard is trying to maintain a careful balance between the vitality of the roots and various kinds of branches.  The most bitter branches are cut off, the best branches are purged (in place) and the "in-betweens" (the tares?) are kept so that "moisture" can continue flowing up from the roots.  See verses Jacob 5:65-66.

[CV75]

41 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

In the end, it doesn’t really matter who Zenos’ immediate audience may have been, because we know for sure that the Book of Mormon prophet Jacob testified to HIS immediate audience that the roots of the olive tree represent members of the house of Israel who will be heirs of salvation if faithful. So now it seems to me that our immediate responsibility is to expunge the erroneous interpretations from the Church manuals and get to the bottom of which members of the House of Israel the roots are referring to and how that knowledge will enable the Church to more fully and accurately interpret Zenos’ remarkable parable.

I think it matters because we are part of that audience and the Book of Mormon record is pertinent to our role in the latter-day gathering of Israel.

Let’s not expunge perfectly valid interpretations when we know there are layers of multiple meaning in prophecies like these. All the interpretations you've shared seem valid to me.

Israel is the tree -- the roots and the branches together (6:1). Only the good fruit is preserved; the bad is cast away. The root nourishes the tree; and the roots and top are to be equal in strength otherwise the roots cannot nourish: and what is the top? Only the fruit is gathered, to be preserved or cast away; what happens to the roots, tree, branches and top when the vineyard is burned with fire? It seems that Israel, like the earthly Church, is but a vehicle which can be kept good or made corrupt. When kept good (roots, branches, top), people can be saved, and when apostate, people cannot be saved. From latter-day revelation we learn that the restored tree will not become corrupt and can save the bad fruit that was cast away through the redemptive work performed in the temple.

I’d say the value in identifying which members of the House of Israel the roots are referring to is realized when we correctly identify with those roots by becoming one with Christ. Otherwise, the roots represent various concepts, not necessarily select, elect or elite individuals. But certainly do what it takes to make yourself one of the elect.

[Robert F. Smith]

Jacob 5:18 “Behold, the branches of the wild tree have taken hold of the moisture of the root  thereof, that the root thereof hath brought forth much strength; and because of the much strength of the root  thereof the wild branches have brought forth tame fruit.”

Jacob 5:34-37 “Behold, because thou didst graft in the branches of the wild olive tree they have nourished the roots, that they are alive and they have not perished; wherefore thou beholdest that they are yet good.  And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard said unto his servant: The tree profiteth me nothing, and the roots thereof profit me nothing so long as it shall bring forth evil fruit.  Nevertheless, I know that the roots are good, and for mine own purpose I have preserved them; and because of their much strength they have hitherto brought forth, from the wild branches, good fruit.  But behold, the wild branches have grown and have overrun the roots thereof; and because that the wild branches have overcome the roots thereof it hath brought forth much evil fruit”

Jacob 5:48 “have not the branches thereof overcome the roots which are good? And because the branches have overcome the roots thereof, behold they grew faster than the strength of the roots, taking strength unto themselves. Behold, I say, is not this the cause that the trees of thy vineyard have become corrupted?”

Jacob 5:53-54 “perhaps, I may preserve unto myself the roots thereof for mine own purpose.  And, behold, the roots of the natural branches of the tree which I planted whithersoever I would are yet alive; wherefore, that I may preserve them also for mine own purpose, I will take of the branches of this tree, and I will graft them in unto them. Yea, I will graft in unto them the branches of their mother tree, that I may preserve the roots also unto mine own self, that when they shall be sufficiently strong perhaps they may bring forth good fruit unto me, and I may yet have glory in the fruit of my vineyard.”

Jacob 5:59-60 “And this I do that, perhaps, the roots thereof may take strength because of their goodness; and because of the change of the branches, that the good may overcome the evil.  And because that I have preserved the natural branches and the roots thereof, and that I have grafted in the natural branches again into their mother tree, and have preserved the roots of their mother tree, that, perhaps, the trees of my vineyard may bring forth again good fruit; and that I may have joy again in the fruit of my vineyard, and, perhaps, that I may rejoice exceedingly that I have preserved the roots and the branches of the first fruit”

Jacob 5:65-66 “ye shall not clear away the bad thereof all at once, lest the roots thereof should be too strong for the graft, and the graft thereof shall perish, and I lose the trees of my vineyard.  For it grieveth me that I should lose the trees of my vineyard; wherefore ye shall clear away the bad according as the good shall grow, that the root and the top may be equal in strength, until the good shall overcome the bad, and the bad be hewn down and cast into the fire,”

Jacob 5:73 “and they did keep the root and the top thereof equal, according to the strength thereof.”

Jacob 6:4 “he remembereth the house of Israel, both roots and branches; and he stretches forth his hands unto them all the day long; and they are a stiffnecked and a gainsaying people;”

Isaiah 5:7, II Nephi 15:7 “For the vineyard of the Lord of Hosts is the house of Israel,”

Isaiah 11:1-2, II Nephi 21:1-2 “And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots.  And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;”

Isaiah 27:6, "He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the whole world with fruit"

 

Isaiah 37:31, "And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward"

[teddyaware]

30 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Jacob 5:18 “Behold, the branches of the wild tree have taken hold of the moisture of the root  thereof, that the root thereof hath brought forth much strength; and because of the much strength of the root  thereof the wild branches have brought forth tame fruit.”

 

Jacob 5:34-37 “Behold, because thou didst graft in the branches of the wild olive tree they have nourished the roots, that they are alive and they have not perished; wherefore thou beholdest that they are yet good.  And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard said unto his servant: The tree profiteth me nothing, and the roots thereof profit me nothing so long as it shall bring forth evil fruit.  Nevertheless, I know that the roots are good, and for mine own purpose I have preserved them; and because of their much strength they have hitherto brought forth, from the wild branches, good fruit.  But behold, the wild branches have grown and have overrun the roots thereof; and because that the wild branches have overcome the roots thereof it hath brought forth much evil fruit”

 

Jacob 5:48 “have not the branches thereof overcome the roots which are good? And because the branches have overcome the roots thereof, behold they grew faster than the strength of the roots, taking strength unto themselves. Behold, I say, is not this the cause that the trees of thy vineyard have become corrupted?”

 

Jacob 5:53-54 “perhaps, I may preserve unto myself the roots thereof for mine own purpose.  And, behold, the roots of the natural branches of the tree which I planted whithersoever I would are yet alive; wherefore, that I may preserve them also for mine own purpose, I will take of the branches of this tree, and I will graft them in unto them. Yea, I will graft in unto them the branches of their mother tree, that I may preserve the roots also unto mine own self, that when they shall be sufficiently strong perhaps they may bring forth good fruit unto me, and I may yet have glory in the fruit of my vineyard.”

 

Jacob 5:59-60 “And this I do that, perhaps, the roots thereof may take strength because of their goodness; and because of the change of the branches, that the good may overcome the evil.  And because that I have preserved the natural branches and the roots thereof, and that I have grafted in the natural branches again into their mother tree, and have preserved the roots of their mother tree, that, perhaps, the trees of my vineyard may bring forth again good fruit; and that I may have joy again in the fruit of my vineyard, and, perhaps, that I may rejoice exceedingly that I have preserved the roots and the branches of the first fruit”

 

Jacob 5:65-66 “ye shall not clear away the bad thereof all at once, lest the roots thereof should be too strong for the graft, and the graft thereof shall perish, and I lose the trees of my vineyard.  For it grieveth me that I should lose the trees of my vineyard; wherefore ye shall clear away the bad according as the good shall grow, that the root and the top may be equal in strength, until the good shall overcome the bad, and the bad be hewn down and cast into the fire,”

 

Jacob 5:73 “and they did keep the root and the top thereof equal, according to the strength thereof.”

 

Jacob 6:4 “he remembereth the house of Israel, both roots and branches; and he stretches forth his hands unto them all the day long; and they are a stiffnecked and a gainsaying people;”

 

Isaiah 5:7, II Nephi 15:7 “For the vineyard of the Lord of Hosts is the house of Israel,”

 

Isaiah 11:1-2, II Nephi 21:1-2 “And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots.  And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;”

 

Isaiah 27:6, "He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the whole world with fruit"

 

 

 

Isaiah 37:31, "And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward"

 

Thank you for this, Robert, After reviewing the above compiled verses from Jacob 5 that specifically mention the roots of the olive tree, it’s now clear that the roots of the tree are consistently good; so much so that even when they appear to be failing it’s never their fault. This, then, is an important clue when it comes to making a determination as which members of the house of Israel the roots represent.

I’m now beginning to be even more convinced that the roots of the tree represent the righteous ancestors of the house of Israel who have passed beyond the portal of death, which is why they are depicted as being under the ground. If it is indeed true that the righteous ancestors of the house of Israel are represented by the roots, it fits in beautifully with Paul’s important declaration pertaining to the interdependent spiritual relationship that exists between the living and the dead when he testified, “that they (the dead) without us and we (the living) without them cannot be made perfect.”

[teddyaware]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

I think it matters because we are part of that audience and the Book of Mormon record is pertinent to our role in the latter-day gathering of Israel.

Let’s not expunge perfectly valid interpretations when we know there are layers of multiple meaning in prophecies like these. All the interpretations you've shared seem valid to me.

Israel is the tree -- the roots and the branches together (6:1). Only the good fruit is preserved; the bad is cast away. The root nourishes the tree; and the roots and top are to be equal in strength otherwise the roots cannot nourish: and what is the top? Only the fruit is gathered, to be preserved or cast away; what happens to the roots, tree, branches and top when the vineyard is burned with fire? It seems that Israel, like the earthly Church, is but a vehicle which can be kept good or made corrupt. When kept good (roots, branches, top), people can be saved, and when apostate, people cannot be saved. From latter-day revelation we learn that the restored tree will not become corrupt and can save the bad fruit that was cast away through the redemptive work performed in the temple.

I’d say the value in identifying which members of the House of Israel the roots are referring to is realized when we correctly identify with those roots by becoming one with Christ. Otherwise, the roots represent various concepts, not necessarily select, elect or elite individuals. But certainly do what it takes to make yourself one of the elect.

So are you saying because the branches of the tree aren’t the fruit of the tree that somehow the branches represent a concept rather than real people?

[CV75]

On 3/30/2020 at 7:46 PM, teddyaware said:

So are you saying because the branches of the tree aren’t the fruit of the tree that somehow the branches represent a concept rather than real people?

No. But since you mention it: where "Israel" is based in covenant, the people, both individually and collectively, by birth and by adoption, are conceived by covenant (therein we have the concept) that cannot exist apart from God. These are real people. So Israel is both concept and real people. "...Israel means a true believer in Christ (Rom. 10:1; 11:7; Gal. 6:16; Eph. 2:12)." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/israel?lang=eng

I see Jacob 5 to be about (among otehr things) preserving the covenant and the covenant people, for the purpose of bringing forth good fruit. "Fruit" is also conceptual (covenant deeds) and representative of real people in various estates: (glorious spirit paradise, glorious resurrection, continued seed in the eternities or spirit children, etc.).

The covenant requires certain conditions to exist and remain viable in the vineyard (this world), and the Lord and His servants are engaged in that stewardship.

[theplains]

On 3/30/2020 at 2:15 AM, teddyaware said:

Perhaps I’m way off base here, but if I’m correct the Parable of the Olive Vineyard is due for a substantial overhaul in interpretation.

When you figure out who or what the roots are, let me know your interpretation of verses 37 and
48.

[37] But behold, the wild branches have grown and have overrun the roots thereof; and because 
that the wild branches have overcome the roots thereof it hath brought forth much evil fruit; 
and because that it hath brought forth so much evil fruit thou beholdest that it beginneth to 
perish; and it will soon become ripened, that it may be cast into the fire, except we should 
do something for it to preserve it.

[48] And it came to pass that the servant said unto his master: Is it not the loftiness of thy 
vineyard -- have not the branches thereof overcome the roots which are good? And because the 
branches have overcome the roots thereof, behold they grew faster than the strength of the 
roots, taking strength unto themselves. Behold, I say, is not this the cause that the trees of 
thy vineyard have become corrupted?

Thanks,
Jim

[CV75]

53 minutes ago, theplains said:

When you figure out who or what the roots are, let me know your interpretation of verses 37 and
48.

[37] But behold, the wild branches have grown and have overrun the roots thereof; and because 
that the wild branches have overcome the roots thereof it hath brought forth much evil fruit; 
and because that it hath brought forth so much evil fruit thou beholdest that it beginneth to 
perish; and it will soon become ripened, that it may be cast into the fire, except we should 
do something for it to preserve it.

[48] And it came to pass that the servant said unto his master: Is it not the loftiness of thy 
vineyard -- have not the branches thereof overcome the roots which are good? And because the 
branches have overcome the roots thereof, behold they grew faster than the strength of the 
roots, taking strength unto themselves. Behold, I say, is not this the cause that the trees of 
thy vineyard have become corrupted?

Thanks,
Jim

An observation from Jacob 6:4 is that the roots and branches are components of the house, or the family, of Israel. A family is built upon individuals (people) who have entered a particular covenant (concept). So, the house, the tree, the roots and branches are both people and covenants, with the glorious union of the temporal/physical and the spiritual/eternal found most abundantly in the covenant believers in Christ.

The verses you listed above describe apostasy through pride ("taking strength unto themselves") and wickedness ("wild branches have grown and overrun" and "overcome the roots").

[teddyaware]

15 hours ago, theplains said:

When you figure out who or what the roots are, let me know your interpretation of verses 37 and
48.

[37] But behold, the wild branches have grown and have overrun the roots thereof; and because 
that the wild branches have overcome the roots thereof it hath brought forth much evil fruit; 
and because that it hath brought forth so much evil fruit thou beholdest that it beginneth to 
perish; and it will soon become ripened, that it may be cast into the fire, except we should 
do something for it to preserve it.

[48] And it came to pass that the servant said unto his master: Is it not the loftiness of thy 
vineyard -- have not the branches thereof overcome the roots which are good? And because the 
branches have overcome the roots thereof, behold they grew faster than the strength of the 
roots, taking strength unto themselves. Behold, I say, is not this the cause that the trees of 
thy vineyard have become corrupted?

Thanks,
Jim

I’m working on it. But for starters, if you read the Allegory with an open mind you’ll understand that in every instance the roots of the tree are always described as being good, and if anything bad ever happens to the roots, or if anything bad ever happens to the parts of the tree that are above the ground, it’s never the fault of the roots..

Edited April 2, 2020 by teddyaware

[marineland]

17 hours ago, teddyaware said:

I’m working on it. But for starters, if you read the Allegory with an open mind you’ll understand that in every instance the roots of the tree are always described as being good, and if anything bad ever happens to the roots, or if anything bad ever happens to the parts of the tree that are above the ground, it’s never the fault of the roots..

From a biblical view, if Jesus is the vine and we are the branches, is Heavenly Father the roots?

[longview]

2 hours ago, marineland said:

From a biblical view, if Jesus is the vine and we are the branches, is Heavenly Father the roots?

According to John 15, Heavenly Father is the Husbandman.  I would say the roots are the Plan of Salvation.

[teddyaware]

3 hours ago, marineland said:

From a biblical view, if Jesus is the vine and we are the branches, is Heavenly Father the roots?

The prophet Jacob himself testifies that the roots of the olive tree represent certain members of the house of Israel. Why members of the Church continue to ignore Jacob’s own declaration as to what the roots represent is beyond me. Aside from the prophet Zenos himself, isn’t the great Book of Mormon prophet Jacob the most qualified individual one can think of to tell us what the roots of the olive tree represent?

4 And how merciful is our God unto us, for he remembereth the house of Israel, both roots and branches; and he stretches forth his hands unto them all the day long; and they are a stiffnecked and a gainsaying people; but as many as will not harden their hearts shall be saved in the kingdom of God. (Jacob 6)

 

[marineland]

16 hours ago, teddyaware said:

4 And how merciful is our God unto us, for he remembereth the house of Israel, both roots and branches; and he stretches forth his hands unto them all the day long; and they are a stiffnecked and a gainsaying people; but as many as will not harden their hearts shall be saved in the kingdom of God. (Jacob 6)

Who are the roots of the house of Israel and who are the branches of the house of Israel?