Roots and Branches

[marineland]

17 hours ago, longview said:

According to John 15, Heavenly Father is the Husbandman.  I would say the roots are the Plan of Salvation.

Based on your view, it leads to the following questions:

8 - and it mattereth not that if it so be that the root of this tree will perish.

God doesn't care that the Plan of Salvation perishes?

35 And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard said unto his servant: The tree profiteth me
nothing, and the roots thereof profit me nothing so long as it shall bring forth evil fruit.

The Plan of Salvation brings forth evil fruit?

37 But behold, the wild branches have grown and have overrun the roots thereof; and because
that the wild branches have overcome the roots thereof it hath brought forth much evil fruit;

So the wild branches are able to overrun [overpower] the Plan of Salvation?

48 And it came to pass that the servant said unto his master: Is it not the loftiness of thy
vineyard—have not the branches thereof overcome the roots which are good? And because
the branches have overcome the roots thereof, behold they grew faster than the strength of
the roots,

The branches are able to overcome the Plan of Salvation?

65 And as they begin to grow ye shall clear away the branches which bring forth bitter fruit,
according to the strength of the good and the size thereof; and ye shall not clear away the
bad thereof all at once, lest the roots thereof should be too strong for the graft, and the graft
thereof shall perish, and I lose the trees of my vineyard.

The Plan of Salvation would be to strong for the graft to take effect and the trees would be
lost?

[teddyaware]

42 minutes ago, marineland said:

Who are the roots of the house of Israel and who are the branches of the house of Israel?

I believe the roots represent the righteous ancestors of the living members of house of Israel. They are sojourning in the paradise of God where they carry the work of the Lord forward by preaching the gospel to the spirits of the  dead in the spirit prison, and also by helping strengthen and inspire the members of the house of Israel who are living in the flesh, the latter work performed in keeping with the sacred dictum that “they without us and we without them cannot be made perfect.” The branches represent the members of the house of Israel who are living in the flesh.

I came to this conclusion on my own, but have since discovered that some modern Latter-Day Saint commentators and some early leaders of the Church believed and taught the roots represent the righteous ancestors of the house of Israel.

[longview]

9 hours ago, marineland said:

On 4/2/2020 at 5:15 PM, longview said:

According to John 15, Heavenly Father is the Husbandman.  I would say the roots are the Plan of Salvation.

Based on your view, it leads to the following questions:

8 - and it mattereth not that if it so be that the root of this tree will perish.

God doesn't care that the Plan of Salvation perishes?

It sounds to me like the earth will come to an end (of the Millennium) but the Lord will try to get as much good fruit as He can.

35 And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard said unto his servant: The tree profiteth me
nothing, and the roots thereof profit me nothing so long as it shall bring forth evil fruit.

The Plan of Salvation brings forth evil fruit?

Meaning that spirit children born into the world sometimes choose evil (like Cain who knew the Gospel but still loved Satan more).

37 But behold, the wild branches have grown and have overrun the roots thereof; and because
that the wild branches have overcome the roots thereof it hath brought forth much evil fruit;

So the wild branches are able to overrun [overpower] the Plan of Salvation?

From my earlier post in this thread:

It seems to me that the Lord of the Vineyard is trying to maintain a careful balance between the vitality of the roots and various kinds of branches.  The most bitter branches are cut off, the best branches are purged (in place being subject to refinements) and the "in-betweens" (the tares?) are kept so that "moisture" can continue flowing up from the roots.  See verses Jacob 5:65-66.

48 And it came to pass that the servant said unto his master: Is it not the loftiness of thy
vineyard—have not the branches thereof overcome the roots which are good? And because
the branches have overcome the roots thereof, behold they grew faster than the strength of
the roots,

The branches are able to overcome the Plan of Salvation?

Same answer as above.  The Plan entails a mix of different kinds of branches bearing different kinds of fruits.  If there are too many of wrong kind, the Plan could fail.

65 And as they begin to grow ye shall clear away the branches which bring forth bitter fruit,
according to the strength of the good and the size thereof; and ye shall not clear away the
bad thereof all at once, lest the roots thereof should be too strong for the graft, and the graft
thereof shall perish, and I lose the trees of my vineyard.

The Plan of Salvation would be to strong for the graft to take effect and the trees would be
lost?

Again, there needs to be the right balance between different branches that are able to draw the "moisture" from the roots without being overwhelmed (either at the roots level or at the branches).

[marineland]

20 hours ago, teddyaware said:

I believe the roots represent the righteous ancestors of the living members of house of Israel. They are sojourning in the paradise of God where they carry the work of the Lord

Where did you get the impression that Jacob's parable is referring to people [the roots] who have
died and are now performing some work in paradise?

Edited April 4, 2020 by marineland
inserted some text

[teddyaware]

3 hours ago, marineland said:

Where did you get the impression that Jacob's parable is referring to people [the roots] who have
died and are now performing some work in paradise?

Because it’s perfectly logical to presume so in light of the doctrines and sacred rites revealed in the restored gospel. And also because Jacob’s stated purpose in recording Zeno’s parable was to alleviate his anxiety over the the house of Israel’s multi-generational rejection of Christ and how those who had previously rejected him might have another opportunity to accept him as their Lord and Savior.

15 And now I, Jacob, am led on by the Spirit unto prophesying; for I perceive by the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that by the stumbling of the Jews they will reject the stone upon which they might build and have safe foundation.
16 But behold, according to the scriptures, this stone shall become the great, and the last, and the only sure foundation, upon which the Jews can build.
17 And now, my beloved, how is it possible that these, after having rejected the sure foundation, can ever build upon it, that it may become the head of their corner?
18 Behold, my beloved brethren, I will unfold this mystery unto you; if I do not, by any means, get shaken from my firmness in the Spirit, and stumble because of my over anxiety for you. (Jacob 4)

 

[marineland]

20 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Because it’s perfectly logical to presume so in light of the doctrines and sacred rites revealed in the restored gospel. And also because Jacob’s stated purpose in recording Zeno’s parable was to alleviate his anxiety over the the house of Israel’s multi-generational rejection of Christ and how those who had previously rejected him might have another opportunity to accept him as their Lord and Savior.

You mentioned earlier that the "roots represent the righteous ancestors of the living members of house
of Israel".  

Do you also believe the branches in Jacob's parable are deceased people who are hearing the gospel
preached to them by the deceased roots in the spirit world?

[teddyaware]

On 4/5/2020 at 11:33 AM, marineland said:

You mentioned earlier that the "roots represent the righteous ancestors of the living members of house
of Israel".  

Do you also believe the branches in Jacob's parable are deceased people who are hearing the gospel
preached to them by the deceased roots in the spirit world?

To be more precise and specific, in reality, the roots represent the TEMPORARY dwelling place (the spirit world connected to this earth, both paradise and the spirit prison, will eventually be vacated at the time of the last resurrection and become obsolete) of VERY MUCH ALIVE spirits that once animated mortal earthly bodies. The branches represent the temporary earthly ecclesiastical structures (they will also become obsolete after the last resurrection) that are populated by the members of the Lord’s kingdom who are still alive in the flesh. So it’s the moisture and nutrients found in the roots and branches that actually bring forth fruit. The root and branch structures will eventually come to an end when they are no longer needed, which is why the entire grove of olive trees will be burned and permanently destroyed at the time of the last resurrection and final judgement.

Both the apostle Paul and the prophet Joseph Smith testified that the dead without the living, and the living without the dead, cannot be saved and ultimately.made perfect because they are mutually interdependent on each other for their survival and fruitfulness. For example, those who once dwelt in mortality restored to those living in mortality the true knowledge of God, the Aaronic Priesthood,  the Melchizedek Priesthood, rthe Book of Mormon plates and the means to translate them; they also restored the essential priesthood powers and keys needed to bind the hearts of the children to the fathers, make the bonds of marriage eternal, gather Israel, and make possible the continuation of the seeds forever. Meanwhile those in mortality perform the temple ordinances on behalf of the dead that they might be saved and, if desired, exalted.

And remember, it’s Jacob himself who tells us both the branches AND THE ROOTS represent parts of the tree where the members of the house are gathered. So whomever they are, members of the house of Israel are represented by and located within the roots. 

Edited April 12, 2020 by teddyaware

[marineland]

On 4/12/2020 at 2:59 PM, teddyaware said:

To be more precise and specific, in reality, the roots represent the TEMPORARY dwelling place (the spirit world connected to this earth, both paradise and the spirit prison, will eventually be vacated at the time of the last resurrection and become obsolete) of VERY MUCH ALIVE spirits that once animated mortal earthly bodies. The branches represent the temporary earthly ecclesiastical structures (they will also become obsolete after the last resurrection) that are populated by the members of the Lord’s kingdom who are still alive in the flesh. So it’s the moisture and nutrients found in the roots and branches that actually bring forth fruit. The root and branch structures will eventually come to an end when they are no longer needed, which is why the entire grove of olive trees will be burned and permanently destroyed at the time of the last resurrection and final judgement.

I found it easier to understand your views when you earlier seemed to believe the roots
and branches were people.

It seems from the above you believe the roots and branches are a "place" and not a 
"people".  Do you also believe the tame olive tree and the wild olive tree are "places"
and not "peoples"?

Verse 8 says "And behold, saith the Lord of the vineyard, I take away many of these young 
and tender branches, and I will graft them whithersoever I will; and it mattereth not 
that if it so be that the root of this tree will perish, I may preserve the fruit thereof 
unto myself; wherefore, I will take these young and tender branches, and I will graft 
them whithersoever I will".

So the branches of the house of Israel is a "place" and not a "people"?   Is the house
of Israel a place or a people?

Verse 35 says "And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard said unto his servant: 
The tree profiteth me nothing, and the roots thereof profit me nothing so long as it shall 
bring forth evil fruit".

Do you believe the roots (the temporary place of very much alive spirits that once animated 
mortal earthly bodies) profit God nothing?   Doesn't the Plan of Salvation require the
need for earthly bodies so humans can gain experiences and progress?

Verse 48 says, "And it came to pass that the servant said unto his master: Is it not the 
loftiness of thy vineyard—have not the branches thereof overcome the roots which are good? 
And because the branches have overcome the roots thereof, behold they grew faster than the 
strength of the roots, taking strength unto themselves. Behold, I say, is not this the 
cause that the trees of thy vineyard have become corrupted?"

In nature, is there any plant or tree where the branches can can grow faster than the 
strength of the roots and then the plant or tree becomes corrupted?

[teddyaware]

23 hours ago, marineland said:

I found it easier to understand your views when you earlier seemed to believe the roots
and branches were people.

It seems from the above you believe the roots and branches are a "place" and not a 
"people".  Do you also believe the tame olive tree and the wild olive tree are "places"
and not "peoples"?

Verse 8 says "And behold, saith the Lord of the vineyard, I take away many of these young 
and tender branches, and I will graft them whithersoever I will; and it mattereth not 
that if it so be that the root of this tree will perish, I may preserve the fruit thereof 
unto myself; wherefore, I will take these young and tender branches, and I will graft 
them whithersoever I will".

So the branches of the house of Israel is a "place" and not a "people"?   Is the house
of Israel a place or a people?

Verse 35 says "And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard said unto his servant: 
The tree profiteth me nothing, and the roots thereof profit me nothing so long as it shall 
bring forth evil fruit".

Do you believe the roots (the temporary place of very much alive spirits that once animated 
mortal earthly bodies) profit God nothing?   Doesn't the Plan of Salvation require the
need for earthly bodies so humans can gain experiences and progress?

Verse 48 says, "And it came to pass that the servant said unto his master: Is it not the 
loftiness of thy vineyard—have not the branches thereof overcome the roots which are good? 
And because the branches have overcome the roots thereof, behold they grew faster than the 
strength of the roots, taking strength unto themselves. Behold, I say, is not this the 
cause that the trees of thy vineyard have become corrupted?"

In nature, is there any plant or tree where the branches can can grow faster than the 
strength of the roots and then the plant or tree becomes corrupted?

We have no choice but to think of the roots, trunk, limbs, branches and leaves of the trees as representing useful, though temporary, ecclesiastical structures in which the children of Israel congregate. The reason why is because after the trees are no longer useful to the Lord of the vineyard he utterly destroys them all by all-consuming fire. Why would the Lord of the vineyard destroy all of his children by fire? The secret is that it’s the life force that courses through the tree, the vital moisture and nutrients, that bring forth the fruit. Without the the life giving moisture and nutrients the tree is dead. In the end, it’s only the gathered fruit that matters to the Lord of the vineyard because while it’s true that the trees do have an indispensable role to play, after the fruit is harvested they are no longer needed because they no longer serve a needful purpose.

Edited April 18, 2020 by teddyaware

[SRichins]

I really like your question. Here is an article my husband wrote that discusses the meaning of the branches. https://thelunchisfree.com/2020/01/27/the-ice-shall-flow-down-at-their-presence-part-2/

[Ahab]

On 4/18/2020 at 7:32 AM, teddyaware said:

We have no choice but to think of the roots, trunk, limbs, branches and leaves of the trees as representing useful, though temporary, ecclesiastical structures in which the children of Israel congregate.

"Ecclesiastical structures"?  How about saying "the Lord's organizations of people" instead.  And how about thinking of all of these things... roots, trunks, (more than one trunk because more than one tree), limbs, and branches... as various groups or organizations of our Lord's people scattered around the world.  Lord's people in the sense that they were and probably still are associated with the house of Israel, at least at some point in their history, whether or not they remain true to their covenant with our Lord.

You were on the right track, I think, when you identified the house of Israel as what all of these have in common.  Even Adam and Eve are some of the roots of the house of Israel, since without them Israel would have never been born.

So what we see in the parable are various groups or organizations of our Lord's people who are somehow part of the house of Israel, planted located in various places around the world, with those organizations either growing or diminishing and with some members of those organizations who move to build up the house of Israel in other locations.

On 4/18/2020 at 7:32 AM, teddyaware said:

The reason why is because after the trees are no longer useful to the Lord of the vineyard he utterly destroys them all by all-consuming fire.

Yes, because at some point the work will cease and the whole planet will be cleansed by fire when we will then have a new planet including a new heaven.

On 4/18/2020 at 7:32 AM, teddyaware said:

Why would the Lord of the vineyard destroy all of his children by fire?

Fire is used to cleanse, but he's not talking about destroying his children by fire.  He's talking about cleansing the planet, which is the place where the work was done.  And then an essentially new or restored Earth will take the place of the old one.

On 4/18/2020 at 7:32 AM, teddyaware said:

The secret is that it’s the life force that courses through the tree, the vital moisture and nutrients, that bring forth the fruit. Without the life giving moisture and nutrients the tree is dead.

Righteousness, essentially.  Trees/organizations that are not righteous are good for nothing so there is no good reason to keep them around.

On 4/18/2020 at 7:32 AM, teddyaware said:

 In the end, it’s only the gathered fruit that matters to the Lord of the vineyard because while it’s true that the trees do have an indispensable role to play, after the fruit is harvested they are no longer needed because they no longer serve a needful purpose.

Yes. It's only the gathered fruit righteous work that matters to the Lord of the vineyard Earth because while it’s true that the trees Lord's organizations of people do have an indispensable role to play, after the fruit righteous work is harvested credited to those who did the work they their former organizations are no longer needed because they no longer serve a needful purpose their former work is done.

[T-Shirt]

On 3/29/2020 at 11:15 PM, teddyaware said:

4 And how merciful is our God unto us, for he remembereth the house of Israel, both ROOTS and BRANCHES; and he stretches forth his hands unto them all the day long; and they are a stiffnecked and a gainsaying people; but as many as will not harden their hearts shall be saved in the kingdom of God. (Jacob 6)

There is another way to look at this.  The phrase, "both ROOTS and BRANCHES" is a parenthetical statement that refers to what the Lord remembers.  However, the rest of the sentence refers to what becomes before the parenthetical statement, which is the House of Israel.  So, it is very possible that the Roots can refer to the covenant and the branches are the people of the House of Israel.

[Ahab]

23 minutes ago, T-Shirt said:

There is another way to look at this.  The phrase, "both ROOTS and BRANCHES" is a parenthetical statement that refers to what the Lord remembers. 

Which is the house of Israel.

23 minutes ago, T-Shirt said:

However, the rest of the sentence refers to what becomes before the parenthetical statement, which is the House of Israel. 

What parenthetical statement are you talking about?  Looks to me like he is talking only about the house of Israel.  

23 minutes ago, T-Shirt said:

So, it is very possible that the Roots can refer to the covenant and the branches are the people of the House of Israel.

The covenant is what makes us members of the house of Israel so it still looks to me like it is only about the house of Israel.

[teddyaware]

7 hours ago, T-Shirt said:

There is another way to look at this.  The phrase, "both ROOTS and BRANCHES" is a parenthetical statement that refers to what the Lord remembers.  However, the rest of the sentence refers to what becomes before the parenthetical statement, which is the House of Israel.  So, it is very possible that the Roots can refer to the covenant and the branches are the people of the House of Israel.

To me it’s perfectly obvious Jacob is telling us the house of Israel, all of whom are first and foremost human beings, are symbolically represented in Zenos’ allegory as both the roots and branches of the olive tree. The problem with your suggestion is that an olive tree is one complete living organism, and every part of the organism that exists above the ground started on its journey of existence above the ground in the equally living parts of the tree that exist below the ground (the living roots).

 In other words, every part of the tree composes one living organism, and every part of that living organism is of one nature. Meanwhile, abstract ideas, like covenants and promises, are not living organisms and for this reason cannot possibly have the same nature as the living organisms we call human beings. All Jacob is saying is that in the allegory the house of Israel is symbolized by the tree in its entirety, not just by the parts of the tree that exist above the ground. In the allegory, both the roots,and branches are the house of Israel, and the Lord of the vineyard cares for their health and welfare equally.

Edited April 24, 2020 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

On 4/22/2020 at 10:00 AM, SRichins said:

I really like your question. Here is an article my husband wrote that discusses the meaning of the branches. https://thelunchisfree.com/2020/01/27/the-ice-shall-flow-down-at-their-presence-part-2/

I read part 2 of your husband’s well written and intriguing essay. Have you ever read this essays yourself? If so, what are your thoughts about his ideas?