Kenngo1969 Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 40 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: The requirement isn't "do the best you can". If you're not doing all you can do, then you cannot be saved by grace (LDS). "For we labor diligently to write, to apersuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by bgrace that we are saved, after all we can cdo." 2 Nephi 25:23 You're hoping there will be grace to compensate for your imperfections, but if you're not doing all you can do, the how will your "grace" (LDS) apply? Still trying to interpret our scriptures for us, RYR? As I say, how .... uhhh ... original. Will the last person to leave the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints please turn out the lights?
Ahab Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 9 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: How do you define the word "earn"? I define "earn" as doing all that it takes to get something, and I mean ALL, so in regards to the atonement that would mean that I was the one who paid the FULL price to achieve that state of "at-one-ment". Which I know I did not do and I don't think I ever could do it. In the bicycle analogy a little girl wants a bicycle and her Dad tells her she must do all that she can to save up the money to buy it. She tries and tries but can come up with only a small fraction of the price it takes to buy the bicycle. Her Dad then pays for the rest. 9 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: If you don't keep the commandments then what do you believe will happen to you? I would be doing my best to prepare to be disappointed, having no expectation of receiving salvation since I didn't do anything to even try to help pay for it. I might think I would win some kind of consolation prize, but not the real prize, if I didn't do anything God wanted me to do. Our part is very small, even when we are doing our very best to try to earn the prize so that we can say we earned it. But when we see the actual cost that it took to claim the prize, and how little we have in comparison, we can see we didn't earn it even if we come up with part of the cost, maybe by not sinning so much so we didn't add even more of a burden to our Savior who paid the price for us, and yet our Father still wants us to try to do something and to try to live the way he wants us to live even if we have a hard time being perfect and can't get there without making a whole lot of mistakes in the process, which we will continue to do until we no longer do things we should not do anymore and are only doing the things that we should do.
InCognitus Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 51 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: Do you believe there was there ever a point in life where someone is not a Child of God? IOW, were you born the way you describe? I answered this question in your thread here. Would you care to respond to that? 31 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: How about "Do you believe there was there ever a point in life where someone is not a Child of Heavenly Father?" Same for this question. There is a literal and a behavioral sense to what it means to be a "child" of Heavenly Father. See my post here. You are confusing the two usages. Can you respond to what I said there? 1
mfbukowski Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 4 hours ago, Ahab said: There is no gray. Something is either good or it is evil. Where he is going wrong is in not seeing what we can do. Or maybe he does see what we can do while seeing that we can't do anything to earn salvation, which is right, actually. We can never earn it. We can only do whatever we can do to show that we really want it. Same error he is making.
Storm Rider Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 On 3/5/2020 at 9:18 AM, RichYoungRuler said: LDS, I'm a good guy and keep all of the commandments since my youth, and, well, I would like to be added as a beneficiary on your last will and testament. Here's my reasoning: Faith in Jesus Christ Baptized in water Keep the Word of Wisdom since my youth I love the savior and love my neighbor and myself Attend church every Sunday, faithfully read the scriptures, pray, tithe of all that I possess and doing all that I can possibly do Donated to the church bake sale Gave up eating potato chips during lent Never killed anyone (exception for military service) Any takers? If not, what would I need to do? You inheritance may be the same of any disciple of Jesus Christ - to be a joint-heir by and through Him. Why exactly would you seek for any other inheritance?
mfbukowski Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 4 hours ago, Ahab said: The good reason in my Dad's case is that the orphanage needs the money more than I or my brother do. We're both doing okay. Not rich, but we have a lot of nice things and any extra would just be for more toys, or for us to give to those who need it more than we do. No. Just that our Father in heaven could have good reasons for not giving all that he has to people who are his children, too. You're talking nonsense now. I suppose that is fun for you. It was sarcasm. If you think it's nonsense ask a lawyer.
mgy401 Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, RichYoungRuler said: So not obeying commandments results in not being saved. How then do you justify "We don't earn it"? The depressing thing about this argument is that it shows such blatant ignorance of how love actually works in practice and of how love defines and refines relationships. A child does not “earn” a parent’s love. But there are certain behaviors that, if not ceased, will eventually make it necessary for that child to live away from the parent. Nevertheless, no one who had actually experienced a healthy and loving parent-child relationship would suggest that a child’s abstinence from destructive behavior constitutes an effort to “earn” the parent’s love or the material benefits that come with being in the parent’s good graces. It’s not transactional; it’s not complicated— they just love each other. RichYoungRuler, I don’t know your history or who hurt you. But I pray you will someday know the joys of a healthy parent-child relationship. When that happens, I daresay the theological issues you raise will resolve themselves. Edited March 6, 2020 by mgy401 2
Ahab Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Same error he is making. in your opinion, of course. And you can think you can earn your salvation as long as you want to.
Ahab Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: It was sarcasm. If you think it's nonsense ask a lawyer. I've studied law long enough to know your comments had nothing to do with my family relations.
The Nehor Posted March 7, 2020 Posted March 7, 2020 2 hours ago, RichYoungRuler said: The requirement isn't "do the best you can". If you're not doing all you can do, then you cannot be saved by grace (LDS). "For we labor diligently to write, to apersuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by bgrace that we are saved, after all we can cdo." 2 Nephi 25:23 You're hoping there will be grace to compensate for your imperfections, but if you're not doing all you can do, the how will your "grace" (LDS) apply? That phrase does not mean what you think it means. Google it and find out what we actually understand and teach before you presume to shove your ignorance into our mouths.
The Nehor Posted March 7, 2020 Posted March 7, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, RichYoungRuler said: Do you think it's possible there could be another perfectly logical interpretation for these passages? You mentioned being shocked. Why were these "sheep" shocked to discover they were doing these things. You seem fairly confident you are keeping the commandments, but that doesn't seem to match the "sheep" in that passage, in fact, the goats were the ones shocked to discover they weren't actually keeping the commandments after all. Why do you think that is so? See, my trap actually worked. Hope that teaches you something. Yes, I know the other interpretation that is often used yet you brazenly presume that your first surface level reading of our scripture is accurate or, more likely lest I give you too much credit, your parroting of what others say we believe is the only way to understand our scriptures. You are welcome to have more then a surface level theology but if you insist on doing that please be fair and allow us the same. That being said I think the nuanced interpretation you believe of those verses (assuming it is the common one for being saved by grace) either makes Jesus out to be an idiot or deliberately deceptive. I definitely would not construct a soteriology from it exclusively just like I would not construct one from the passage saying whores and sinners will go in before Pharisees. A dumb reading of that in isolation would suggest prostitution is an honorable and holy profession. Edited March 7, 2020 by The Nehor
Kenngo1969 Posted March 7, 2020 Posted March 7, 2020 Christ, who alone could do so, performed the imperative sine qua non of our salvation. Without that, it wouldn't matter how much we do: All of it would be for naught. That said, God asks us to participate in our own salvation and exaltation because He wants to know how badly we want it. Anyone can say he wants something, but one can know how badly he truly wants what he says he wants by what he does: "Not everyone that saith unto me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in Heaven." Matthew 7:21 KJV. 1
teddyaware Posted March 7, 2020 Posted March 7, 2020 (edited) On 3/5/2020 at 5:16 PM, RichYoungRuler said: What? No takers? I'm doing all that I can do from my youth up. I'm keeping the commandments and faithful to my callings. Obviously, we all agree there is nothing I can do to obtain your earthly inheritance. So what makes mormons think Heavenly Father would be any different? I find it very amusing that you apparently missed the whole point ot the account of Christ and the rich young ruler. You see, there actually were some things the rich young ruler was required to DO in order to obtain eternal life and thereby inherit all the Father possesses. In this instance, there were three specific requirements the rich young ruler needed to fulfill. The first was to sell all his vast possessions and gladly distribute the proceeds to the poor (required action 1). Next he needed to walk away from his family, friends, profession, former religion and way of life (required action 2). Finally, he had to become a genuinely faithful disciple of Christ, who would demonstrate by his words and deeds that he was indeed an authentically converted believer in the Lord Jesus Christ (required action 3) Now your job is to prove that the Savior didn’t actually require the rich young ruler to follow through on the above three required actions in order for him to obtain eternal life?. Edited March 7, 2020 by teddyaware 4
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