smac97 Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 17 hours ago, RichYoungRuler said: "Keep the commandments" is a commandment which you either completely fulfill or completely do not fulfill. This is quite incorrect. Thanks, -Smac 1
Ahab Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 11 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Really bad analogy, as we knew it would be. Who will get our stuff after we die? Our kids. Why? Because we love them and they love us. They are our kids We are children of our father in heaven. Of course we would get his inheritance This is a non-starter. Not all parents feel that way. Just saying. My Dad told me that after he died he would leave everything to his wife and after she dies they will put all of their assets into a trust, after an executor sells everything they had to turn it into money, and that trust would go toward supporting an orphanage in New Mexico. My brother and I, their only children, will not get anything, if his wife sticks to their agreement. So what you seem to take for granted is not always the way it turns out.
mfbukowski Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 8 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: Now he's interpreting our scriptures for us! * How ... uhhh ... original ... or something. Congratulations! You got us, RYR! We knew it couldn't last, before some Evangelical somewhere came and pulled out the one card that would make the whole thing collapse as though it's a house of cards (using a scripture from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, no less)! Ah, well! All "good" things must come to an end! Will the last person to leave the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints please turn out the lights? *Personally, I like to let God interpret the scriptures for me, through His Holy Spirit. Safer that way (not to mention more accurate)! Isn't preaching forbidden by board rules?🤔 1
mfbukowski Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 3 hours ago, Amulek said: Wills are for suckers - it's all about trusts now baby. Maybe he makes his living on probate fees. 🤨 2
mfbukowski Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Ahab said: Not all parents feel that way. Just saying. My Dad told me that after he died he would leave everything to his wife and after she dies they will put all of their assets into a trust, after an executor sells everything they had to turn it into money, and that trust would go toward supporting an orphanage in New Mexico. My brother and I, their only children, will not get anything, if his wife sticks to their agreement. So what you seem to take for granted is not always the way it turns out. Good for him I would do the same. But whoever did that would either have a good reason or be a bad father. So that must mean then that Heavenly Father is a bad father is that what you're saying? 🙃 But don't worry. His wife will never stick to the agreement, and then you and your brother can sue the estate. You could probably fight it anyway because he was under undue influence from his wife. Won't that be fun? Edited March 6, 2020 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 53 minutes ago, smac97 said: This is quite incorrect. Thanks, -Smac He doesn't see gray. He's a Fundamentalist. Strictly black and white. No nuances. 1
smac97 Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: He doesn't see gray. He's a Fundamentalist. Strictly black and white. No nuances. It seems so. I wonder how the "you either completely fulfill or completely do not fulfill" theory comports with the concept of repentance. They seem . . . incompatible. Thanks, -Smac 2
Ahab Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 (edited) 26 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Good for him I would do the same. But whoever did that would either have a good reason or be a bad father. The good reason in my Dad's case is that the orphanage needs the money more than I or my brother do. We're both doing okay. Not rich, but we have a lot of nice things and any extra would just be for more toys, or for us to give to those who need it more than we do. Quote So that must mean then that Heavenly Father is a bad father is that what you're saying? 🙃 No. Just that our Father in heaven could have good reasons for not giving all that he has to people who are his children, too. Quote But don't worry. His wife will never stick to the agreement, and then you and your brother can sue the estate. You could probably fight it anyway because he was under undue influence from his wife. Won't that be fun? You're talking nonsense now. I suppose that is fun for you. Edited March 6, 2020 by Ahab
Ahab Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 19 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: He doesn't see gray. He's a Fundamentalist. Strictly black and white. No nuances. There is no gray. Something is either good or it is evil. Where he is going wrong is in not seeing what we can do. Or maybe he does see what we can do while seeing that we can't do anything to earn salvation, which is right, actually. We can never earn it. We can only do whatever we can do to show that we really want it.
mfbukowski Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, smac97 said: It seems so. I wonder how the "you either completely fulfill or completely do not fulfill" theory comports with the concept of repentance. They seem . . . incompatible. Thanks, -Smac Huge fallacy when anything is based on interpretation. And as you know at your profession everything is based on interpretation of language. "It's either murder or it's not." Golly we could solve the whole abortion crisis if we could just take on that view. Kill a pregnant woman and it is two counts of murder. Kill the baby forcibly and it's murder. Kill the baby in the womb and it's totally legal, and in some circles, applauded Ridiculous Edited March 6, 2020 by mfbukowski
RichYoungRuler Posted March 6, 2020 Author Posted March 6, 2020 2 hours ago, Ahab said: There is no gray. Something is either good or it is evil. Where he is going wrong is in not seeing what we can do. Or maybe he does see what we can do while seeing that we can't do anything to earn salvation, which is right, actually. We can never earn it. We can only do whatever we can do to show that we really want it. Don't you think it's a bit unfair to claim "We can never earn it [salvation]"? "We believe that through the aAtonement of Christ, all bmankind may be csaved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel." AoF 1:3 What happens IF you don't "obey the laws and ordinances of the Gospel"?
RichYoungRuler Posted March 6, 2020 Author Posted March 6, 2020 20 hours ago, The Nehor said: Of course not. We are woefully ignorant of our own limitations. The Savior though, He can say "It is enough". The requirement isn't "do the best you can". If you're not doing all you can do, then you cannot be saved by grace (LDS). "For we labor diligently to write, to apersuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by bgrace that we are saved, after all we can cdo." 2 Nephi 25:23 You're hoping there will be grace to compensate for your imperfections, but if you're not doing all you can do, the how will your "grace" (LDS) apply?
Ahab Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: Don't you think it's a bit unfair to claim "We can never earn it [salvation]"? "We believe that through the aAtonement of Christ, all bmankind may be csaved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel." AoF 1:3 What happens IF you don't "obey the laws and ordinances of the Gospel"? If you don't obey the laws and ordinances of the gospel then you're not accepting the gospel. If someone says they accept the gospel but does not obey the laws and ordinances of the gospel, then they are either a liar or they do not understand what it means to accept the gospel. The atonement of Christ is the central and most important aspect of the gospel, but we can't benefit from that atonement unless we do something to show we accept it, so we must obey the laws and ordinances of the gospel to show that we accept the atonement of Christ. Edited March 6, 2020 by Ahab
RichYoungRuler Posted March 6, 2020 Author Posted March 6, 2020 20 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said: I declined to add you, because you're not my child. Heavenly Father won't decline to add me, because I'm His child. And my older brother assures me I'm in the will, and will gain equal shares with Him. "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." Dude, do you even Bible? Do you believe there was there ever a point in life where someone is not a Child of God? IOW, were you born the way you describe?
RichYoungRuler Posted March 6, 2020 Author Posted March 6, 2020 19 hours ago, The Nehor said: I went ahead and bolded the parts about keeping the commandments. That might lead to a paradigm shift without a clutch. Do you think it's possible there could be another perfectly logical interpretation for these passages? You mentioned being shocked. Why were these "sheep" shocked to discover they were doing these things. You seem fairly confident you are keeping the commandments, but that doesn't seem to match the "sheep" in that passage, in fact, the goats were the ones shocked to discover they weren't actually keeping the commandments after all. Why do you think that is so?
RichYoungRuler Posted March 6, 2020 Author Posted March 6, 2020 5 minutes ago, Ahab said: If you don't obey the laws and ordinances of the gospel then you're not accepting the gospel. So not obeying commandments results in not being saved. How then do you justify "We don't earn it"?
Ahab Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: Do you believe there was there ever a point in life where someone is not a Child of God? IOW, were you born the way you describe? Which person do you have in mind when you say God? We believe we have an eternal Father in heaven, the same as you do, but we also believe Jesus Christ can become our Father as we are born again through him. So we have 2 Fathers and both of them are God. We also have mortal fathers, and great and grand fathers count as fathers, too. So we all have lots and lots of fathers and yet only one is the one we refer to as our Eternal Father. But not because he is our only eternal Father. There is no end to how many fathers we have. Edited March 6, 2020 by Ahab
Ahab Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 Just now, RichYoungRuler said: So not obeying commandments results in not being saved. How then do you justify "We don't earn it"? Because we're not the ones who earn it. We would have to do what Jesus did to earn it on our own, never messing up at all. So he has struck a deal with us, telling us that if we do as well as we can to obey his and our Father's commandments, he will give us the prize. Have you heard the story of the bicycle before? There are lots of good analogies. You can probably find one using Google or something like that.
RichYoungRuler Posted March 6, 2020 Author Posted March 6, 2020 14 minutes ago, Ahab said: Which person do you have in mind when you say God? We believe we have an eternal Father in heaven, the same as you do, but we also believe Jesus Christ can become our Father as we are born again through him. So we have 2 Fathers and both of them are God. How about "Do you believe there was there ever a point in life where someone is not a Child of Heavenly Father?"
RichYoungRuler Posted March 6, 2020 Author Posted March 6, 2020 12 minutes ago, Ahab said: Because we're not the ones who earn it. We would have to do what Jesus did to earn it on our own, never messing up at all. So he has struck a deal with us, telling us that if we do as well as we can to obey his and our Father's commandments, he will give us the prize. How do you define the word "earn"? If you don't keep the commandments then what do you believe will happen to you?
pogi Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 (edited) 24 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: So not obeying commandments results in not being saved. How then do you justify "We don't earn it"? According to you, not believing results in not being saved. How then do you justify "we don't earn it"? Salvation is just as conditional for you. Just different conditions. Edited March 6, 2020 by pogi 1
RichYoungRuler Posted March 6, 2020 Author Posted March 6, 2020 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: Huge fallacy when anything is based on interpretation. And as you know at your profession everything is based on interpretation of language. "It's either murder or it's not." Golly we could solve the whole abortion crisis if we could just take on that view. Kill a pregnant woman and it is two counts of murder. Kill the baby forcibly and it's murder. Kill the baby in the womb and it's totally legal, and in some circles, applauded Ridiculous Again, how many lies does one have to be guilty to be a "liar"? Thief? Adulterer? Murderer? etc Seems to me you're either 100% a liar or 100% never told a lie before. Why would keeping the commandments be any different? You're either a commandment keeper or a commandment breaker.
RichYoungRuler Posted March 6, 2020 Author Posted March 6, 2020 1 minute ago, pogi said: According to you, not believing results in not being saved. How then do you justify "we don't earn it"? Salvation is just as conditional for you. Just different conditions. The difference is in whose works are worthy to earn salvation.
Ahab Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 6 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: How about "Do you believe there was there ever a point in life where someone is not a Child of Heavenly Father?" I believe there was a point when our Heavenly Father didn't have any children, and then he had one, and then another, and then all of the rest of us, eventually, At that point we were still part of him, though, as his unrealized potential to be the Father of all of us.
pogi Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 4 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: The difference is in whose works are worthy to earn salvation. No difference. We both believe that it is only through the works of the savior that salvation is possible. Salvation is however conditional. Even in your beliefs - it is conditional upon belief/faith. We simply disagree in what those conditions are. 1
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