Fixing the Anger

[Metis_LDS]

I have had two persons in my life that have been very angry with God.  One recovered and the other spiralled downward into really self destructive things.  I worked real hard to help them both and suffered with them.  Now I know that we do not marry God in the Church.  But I now see the relationship of person to God like a marriage on some level.  Anyone who has tried to help a troubled human marriage knows what a difficult and ofttimes thankless task that is.  So the point of this is how hard I tried to see and understand the difference in these two persons.  Why did one get better, why did one not get better?  The shocking answer is that I cannot know and I now never expect to know.  You think about Gospel mysteries well the mysteries right in front of out faces are much deeper.

[rpn]

Maybe it isn't one or the other, but different timing?   Anger is a secondary emotion: the primary emotion may be pain or frustration or (I can never remember the third one).

Edited January 19, 2020 by rpn

[Calm]

29 minutes ago, rpn said:

Maybe it isn't one or the other, but different timing?   Anger is a secondary emotion: the primary emotion may be pain or frustration or (I can never remember the third one).

Fear probably. 
 

People are complicated creatures. We don’t really understand ourselves (we think of our memory as similar to a video recording, for example). We shouldn’t really expect to understand someone else. 

Edited January 19, 2020 by Calm

[Metis_LDS]

17 minutes ago, rpn said:

Maybe it isn't one or the other, but different timing?   Anger is a secondary emotion: the primary emotion may be pain or frustration or (I can never remember the third one).

Thank for this.  I agree with you about primary emotions etc...  But we end up kicking the can down the road.  The question changes to why could one overcome the emotion and the other could not.  What I am pointing to is that we expect God to know everything about us and maybe he does not.  Remember the doctrine says he organised us from something that was already there.  Perhaps some of that stuff that was already there is not knowable.  See the English language answer is something like well one person was able to overcome because of whatever. If you accept that than why did the other person not have or could not get or did not want whatever helped the first person.  See the more you ask why the more unknowable it becomes.  I submit that God is not probing the why but is more concerned with the actual outcomes.  This does not upset me because I feel it leads me into a better reality of God.

[Kenngo1969]

The Atonement is infinite: Infinite in time, infinite in space, infinite in scope.  There is no sin, no sinner, it cannot reach.  It covers eternity past and eternity future.  God is infinitely patient, infinitely loving, infinitely capable. His work and glory is to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life.  He has eternity to accomplish that mission, and he's very persuasive.  I think of the repeated refrain from the Book of Isaiah: "His arm is stretched out, still."  The only reason Christ cannot save someone (with all due respect to my TULIP-believing brothers and sisters) is because He cannot override that person's own will.  As the great philosopher, John Lennon, once said, "Everything will be all right in the end.  If it's not all right, its not the end."

My $0.02, as always, actual value much less.  I wish you and yours all the best.

 

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

See the English language answer is something like well one person was able to overcome because of whatever. If you accept that than why did the other person not have or could not get or did not want whatever helped the first person

If we include postmortality in the effort to overcome, you can’t really assume the person has not nor will not receive what will help them. 

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Kenngo1969 said:

He cannot override

Imo, He chooses not to override because that would likely be evil and at least not healthy for the individual. 
 

God has had an eternity to study humanity and likely has perfect recall of events plus an ability to communicate and therefore know the thoughts and feelings of each individual. That much time and ability to work with, I think he is capable of understanding the whys as well as the hows. 

[Metis_LDS]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

If we include postmortality in the effort to overcome, you can’t really assume the person has not nor will not receive what will help them. 

Well when I see someone self destruct (can but does not have to include suicide) I have to assume that whatever was not enough for them in this life.  

[Calm]

Just now, Metis_LDS said:

Well when I see someone self destruct (can but does not have to include suicide) I have to assume that whatever was not enough for them in this life.  

I don’t think this life is ever enough for anyone myself. We can never get a clear message from life because we aren’t capable of that level of communication. 
 

That’s why it will take a very long time to learn the next steps imo. We have to unlearn what we got wrong and learn the correct stuff as well as everything we missed because no one can live long enough to experience all choices available, etc. 

[Metis_LDS]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

God has had an eternity to study humanity and likely has perfect recall of events plus an ability to communicate and therefore know the thoughts and feelings of each individual. That much time and ability to work with, I think he is capable of understanding the whys as well as the hows. 

I like your response because we really want God to know everything.  Again we can say well that person went that way because and when we say that it is really without meaning because WE do not know.  It should not frighten us if God does not really know also.

Edited January 19, 2020 by Metis_LDS
addition for clarity

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

It should not frighten us if God does not really know also.

It doesn’t me. The only reason one might need to fear is if there could be something evil that could overcome God’s work due to his missing something and I don’t believe the wicked can work together all that well (lack of true unity), so the extremes of evil will never be greater than the ultimate good.

There has been likely multiple eternity of the past to work out the process of salvation even if done with incomplete knowledge.  An eternity of trial and error yields the best solutions imo.  (Think of what the ultimate computer might be able todo by imagining all possible scenarios, choices and consequences and then choosing which yields the best results )

Edited January 19, 2020 by Calm

[Metis_LDS]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

There has been likely multiple eternity of the past to work out the process of salvation even if done with incomplete knowledge.  An eternity of trial and error yields the best solutions imo.  (Think of what the ultimate computer might be able todo by imagining all possible scenarios, choices and consequences and then choosing which yields the best results )

I am not questioning the process of salvation I believe in the Plan of Salvation.  Children are great at asking why over and over until adults get frustrated and say something like because that the way things are etc...  We need to keep an open mind that there maybe limitations even in the next life about understanding why people did things in this life.  A murder can say Well I got real angry and killed them.  It makes sense to them when they say it, it does not make a lot of sense to me.

[Kenngo1969]

16 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

I am not questioning the process of salvation I believe in the Plan of Salvation.  Children are great at asking why over and over until adults get frustrated and say something like because that the way things are etc...  We need to keep an open mind that there maybe limitations even in the next life about understanding why people did things in this life.  A murder can say Well I got real angry and killed them.  It makes sense to them when they say it, it does not make a lot of sense to me.

Even if God chooses to not intervene in the short run, thus choosing, also, to not thwart the killer's murderous designs and, thereby, also, to not prolong the victim's mortal life, we must trust that, in the end, God's ultimate, long-run purposes (though perhaps inscrutable and unfathomable to the finite, mortal mind) will not be frustrated (Isaiah 55:8-9).

I believe Romans 8:28.  It's not only the "good stuff" and not only the things we understand that will work together for the good "of them that love God," but all things, even the "bad stuff" and the things we don't understand.  At least, that's the hope I (often tenuously) cling to.

I realize this may be easy for me to say, because I've never lost a loved one at another's hand, never experienced another heart-wrenching tragedy of that sort, and may have no idea what you or anyone else is going through, but, honestly, it is only ideas such as these that help me make sense of the otherwise-incomprehensible sources of confusion and pain (far less significant though they may be) that exist in my own life.

Again, I wish you and yours well. 

[The Nehor]

On 1/18/2020 at 8:49 PM, Metis_LDS said:

I am not questioning the process of salvation I believe in the Plan of Salvation.  Children are great at asking why over and over until adults get frustrated and say something like because that the way things are etc...  We need to keep an open mind that there maybe limitations even in the next life about understanding why people did things in this life.  A murder can say Well I got real angry and killed them.  It makes sense to them when they say it, it does not make a lot of sense to me.

If people being irrational tries our faith in God our faith is built on sand. Correction, make that quicksand.

[Scott Lloyd]

On 1/18/2020 at 7:10 PM, Metis_LDS said:

Thank for this.  I agree with you about primary emotions etc...  But we end up kicking the can down the road.  The question changes to why could one overcome the emotion and the other could not.  What I am pointing to is that we expect God to know everything about us and maybe he does not.  Remember the doctrine says he organised us from something that was already there.  Perhaps some of that stuff that was already there is not knowable.  See the English language answer is something like well one person was able to overcome because of whatever. If you accept that than why did the other person not have or could not get or did not want whatever helped the first person.  See the more you ask why the more unknowable it becomes.  I submit that God is not probing the why but is more concerned with the actual outcomes.  This does not upset me because I feel it leads me into a better reality of God.

This contradicts our doctrine about the omniscience of God, which we cannot profess to believe in without accepting that He believes everything about us. 

[Meadowchik]

On 1/19/2020 at 12:17 AM, Metis_LDS said:

I have had two persons in my life that have been very angry with God.  One recovered and the other spiralled downward into really self destructive things.  I worked real hard to help them both and suffered with them.  Now I know that we do not marry God in the Church.  But I now see the relationship of person to God like a marriage on some level.  Anyone who has tried to help a troubled human marriage knows what a difficult and ofttimes thankless task that is.  So the point of this is how hard I tried to see and understand the difference in these two persons.  Why did one get better, why did one not get better?  The shocking answer is that I cannot know and I now never expect to know.  You think about Gospel mysteries well the mysteries right in front of out faces are much deeper.

Different people can have completely different minds, bodies, and experiences. Some conflicts may never be resolved in one's lifetime.

[stemelbow]

Apparently, according to scripture, some people are just a lost cause.  Some will have pled with God their whole lives, thinking he's there listening, but in the end, He'll tell them He never knew them, and dismiss them because apparently He never really paid attention to them.   Many will hear but few will be chosen.  Some will hear and build their house appropriately, others will hear and build a flimsy house that gets washed away.  All we can do is try, apparently, and we won't really learn if our efforts were in vain or not until it's all said and done.  

Or

You can tell them there is no God and this religion nonsense is just nonsense so there's no point in getting angry and misplacing your anger in make believe stuff.  It might help.  Some are just much better equipped without religion, it seems.

[smac97]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Apparently, according to scripture, some people are just a lost cause. 

I don't think so.

Quote

Some will have pled with God their whole lives, thinking he's there listening, but in the end, He'll tell them He never knew them, and dismiss them because apparently He never really paid attention to them.

This is not an accurate characterization of God, or of "scripture."

Quote

Many will hear but few will be chosen. 

Actually, the phrase is "many are called, but few are chosen" (Matt. 22:14, D&C 121:34, 40).

Moreover, the Doctrine & Covenants provides a pretty good explanation as to why "few are chosen."  That explanation is nothing like what you suggest above:

Quote

34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?
35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—
36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.
37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.
38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.
39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.
40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.

We believe that God is "perfect."  I don't think we can fully comprehend what this means, but we can approximate it to some extent.  We can conceive of things like kindness and mercy and benevolence and parental love.  We can then extrapolate that God has these attributes.  This, in my view, undermines blinkered, ignorant suppositions about God being some sort of malicious, capricious, arbitrary, Zeus-like jerk.  "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord."

We also believe that God has a a plan for us, one that involves "improvement and progression."  Such a plan apparently requires "opposition in all things."  And as a consequence of that opposition comes, to some extent, suffering.  Some of that suffering comes in the form of "chastening" from God.  "And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer."  But such suffering is not for eternity, and not beyond our ability to endure.  And to the extent what we suffer because of wickedness or injustice or even seemingly random happenstance, God will make all things right.  

"My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment; And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes."  

"For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning."  

"Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom."

Quote

Some will hear and build their house appropriately, others will hear and build a flimsy house that gets washed away.  All we can do is try, apparently, and we won't really learn if our efforts were in vain or not until it's all said and done.  

I'm not sure what this means.

Quote

You can tell them there is no God and this religion nonsense is just nonsense so there's no point in getting angry and misplacing your anger in make believe stuff.  It might help.  Some are just much better equipped without religion, it seems.

Or we could, you know, accurately characterize the doctrines of the Church.  You aren't doing that here. 

You post presents a near-pristine example of the "fallacy of false dilemma."

Meanwhile, I continue to be interested in the faith of atheists.  There is no "science" behind the LDS paradigm that posits that God exists.  But then, the atheistic paradigm is also bereft of "science."  It's not like the existence of God is proven, or even disprovable through "science."

So it's a bit perplexing, and even a little amusing, for folks like you to come along and sneer at our faith that God does exist, all the while holding tightly to your own faith that He does not exist.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited January 22, 2020 by smac97

[stemelbow]

17 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I don't think so.

This is not an accurate characterization of God, or of "scripture."

So who will be pleading with God that they have done all they can for him, only to be told that He, God, never knew them?  Matt 7.  Are you saying God really did know them?  really did hear their cries and prayers?  

17 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Actually, the phrase is "many are called, but few are chosen" (Matt. 22:14, D&C 121:34, 40).

Moreover, the Doctrine & Covenants provides a pretty good explanation as to why "few are chosen."  That explanation is nothing like what you suggest above:

That seems to describe nicely what I suggested above.  

17 minutes ago, smac97 said:

We believe that God is "perfect."  I don't think we can fully comprehend what this means, but we can approximate it to some extent.  We can conceive of things like kindness and mercy and benevolence and parental love.  We can then extrapolate that God has these attributes.  This, in my view, undermines blinkered, ignorant suppositions about God being some sort of malicious, capricious, arbitrary, Zeus-like jerk.  "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord."

We also believe that God has a a plan for us, one that involves "improvement and progression."  Such a plan apparently requires "opposition in all things."  And as a consequence of that opposition comes, to some extent, suffering.  Some of that suffering comes in the form of "chastening" from God.  "And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer."  But such suffering is not for eternity, and not beyond our ability to endure.  And to the extent what we suffer because of wickedness or injustice or even seemingly random happenstance, God will make all things right.  

"My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment; And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes."  

"For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning."  

"Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom."

I don't really see how any of this does much but support my point.  Many will be called and few chosen.  God will tell many, and if he is truthful it will be true, that he never even knew them.  Perhaps some will find eternal peace, but none of us know who those will be.  Many who are trying their best to follow God will be coldly rejected, being told God never knew them.  

17 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I'm not sure what this means.

Or we could, you know, accurately characterize the doctrines of the Church.  You aren't doing that here. 

The doctrines of the Church are many and have shifted, and will continue to do so.  my point was alluding to a scripture, assuming it truly represents God and describing how such a view is problematic.  

17 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Meanwhile, I continue to be interested in the faith of atheists.  There is no "science" behind the LDS paradigm that posits that God exists.  But then, the atheistic paradigm is also bereft of "science."  It's not like the existence of God is proven, or even disprovable through "science."

lol.  I suppose on such a manner of thinking anything is possible, and perhaps no one really doubts that.  But then again that suggests if the God you worship exists so does another person's, and another's.  Perhaps God is whatever a man or woman imagines.  I mean it's all possible.  Perhaps not one God but 100 billion gods, all crafted by the imagination of each individual.  It's disprovable, so it must be.  

17 minutes ago, smac97 said:

So it's a bit perplexing, and even a little amusing, for folks like you to come along and sneer at our faith that God does exist, all the while holding tightly to your own faith that He does not exist.

Thanks,

-Smac

I'm not sneering.  I'm pointing out that some of us might be bitter and angry as believers, as the people mentioned in this post.  But they may be better off not believing, finding peace by not having to feel obliged to blame and non-existent made up entity for their issues or troubles.  

[smac97]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Quote

This is not an accurate characterization of God, or of "scripture."

So who will be pleading with God that they have done all they can for him, only to be told that He, God, never knew them?  Matt 7.  Are you saying God really did know them?  really did hear their cries and prayers?  

I'm not sure what you are asking here.  Have you read verse 21?  "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Quote

Quote

Actually, the phrase is "many are called, but few are chosen" (Matt. 22:14, D&C 121:34, 40).

Moreover, the Doctrine & Covenants provides a pretty good explanation as to why "few are chosen."  That explanation is nothing like what you suggest above:

That seems to describe nicely what I suggested above.  

To me, it seems to describe nothing close to what you have suggested above.

Quote

Quote

We believe that God is "perfect."  I don't think we can fully comprehend what this means, but we can approximate it to some extent.  We can conceive of things like kindness and mercy and benevolence and parental love.  We can then extrapolate that God has these attributes.  This, in my view, undermines blinkered, ignorant suppositions about God being some sort of malicious, capricious, arbitrary, Zeus-like jerk.  "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord."

We also believe that God has a a plan for us, one that involves "improvement and progression."  Such a plan apparently requires "opposition in all things."  And as a consequence of that opposition comes, to some extent, suffering.  Some of that suffering comes in the form of "chastening" from God.  "And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer."  But such suffering is not for eternity, and not beyond our ability to endure.  And to the extent what we suffer because of wickedness or injustice or even seemingly random happenstance, God will make all things right.  

"My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment; And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes."  

"For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning."  

"Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom."

I don't really see how any of this does much but support my point. 

You seem to be characterizing God as "some sort of malicious, capricious, arbitrary, Zeus-like jerk," and we humans as hapless victims of His malice, caprice, and arbitrariness.

I am positing that you are not accurately stating the Latter-day Saint teachings about the nature of God, our relationship with Him, the Plan of Salvation, and so on.

Quote

Many will be called and few chosen. 

Through their own actions or inactions.  And not, as you suggest, because God is arbitrary, capricious, cruel, etc.

Quote

God will tell many, and if he is truthful it will be true, that he never even knew them.  Perhaps some will find eternal peace, but none of us know who those will be.  Many who are trying their best to follow God will be coldly rejected, being told God never knew them.  

No.  No.  

You are not accurately stating our beliefs.  At all.  Not even a little.  "Many who are trying their best to follow God will be coldly rejected" is a wildly and flagrantly false characterization of our beliefs.  I reject it utterly.

Quote

Quote

I'm not sure what this means.

Or we could, you know, accurately characterize the doctrines of the Church.  You aren't doing that here. 

The doctrines of the Church are many and have shifted, and will continue to do so.  my point was alluding to a scripture, assuming it truly represents God and describing how such a view is problematic.

Again, you are not accurately characterizing the doctrines of the Church.  You are instead using a gross mischaracterization of our beliefs to fabricate a "problematic {view}."

Quote

Quote

Meanwhile, I continue to be interested in the faith of atheists.  There is no "science" behind the LDS paradigm that posits that God exists.  But then, the atheistic paradigm is also bereft of "science."  It's not like the existence of God is proven, or even disprovable through "science."

lol.  I suppose on such a manner of thinking anything is possible, and perhaps no one really doubts that. 

Dodge.

Atheism is as predicated on faith as theism.  Perhaps even more so.

Agnosticism is a somewhat different story.  

Quote

But then again that suggests if the God you worship exists so does another person's, and another's. 

Or it suggests that God exists, but that different cultures and peoples have different perceptions and ideas about Him.  Some of these perceptions and ideas overlap from culture to culture.  Some are contradictory.  Some are, in my view, more correct and proximate to the truth of the matter as compared to others.

Meanwhile, the atheist sneers at the faith of others, all the while cherishing his own.

Quote

Quote

So it's a bit perplexing, and even a little amusing, for folks like you to come along and sneer at our faith that God does exist, all the while holding tightly to your own faith that He does not exist.

I'm not sneering. 

Sure seems like it.  

Quote

I'm pointing out that some of us might be bitter and angry as believers, as the people mentioned in this post.  But they may be better off not believing, finding peace by not having to feel obliged to blame and non-existent made up entity for their issues or troubles.  

Unless, of course, God does exist.

And even then, we don't believe in "blam{ing}" him for our "issues or troubles."  God being some sort of malicious, capricious, arbitrary, Zeus-like jerk is what you are positing, remember ("Some will have pled with God their whole lives, thinking he's there listening, but in the end, He'll tell them He never knew them, and dismiss them because apparently He never really paid attention to them" ... "Many who are trying their best to follow God will be coldly rejected...").

You are substantially mischaracterizing our beliefs, and then expressing bitterness and anger based on that mischaracterization.  I don't think that works.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited January 22, 2020 by smac97

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Apparently, according to scripture, some people are just a lost cause.  Some will have pled with God their whole lives, thinking he's there listening, but in the end, He'll tell them He never knew them, and dismiss them because apparently He never really paid attention to them.   Many will hear but few will be chosen.  Some will hear and build their house appropriately, others will hear and build a flimsy house that gets washed away.  All we can do is try, apparently, and we won't really learn if our efforts were in vain or not until it's all said and done.  

Or

You can tell them there is no God and this religion nonsense is just nonsense so there's no point in getting angry and misplacing your anger in make believe stuff.  It might help.  Some are just much better equipped without religion, it seems.

Uhhhhhhhhh.......nope.

As to the OP I have been angry at God to some degree for most of my life. I still am over some things.

[stemelbow]

32 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I'm not sure what you are asking here.  Have you read verse 21?  "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Of course I've read.  

32 minutes ago, smac97 said:

To me, it seems to describe nothing close to what you have suggested above.

You seem to be characterizing God as "some sort of malicious, capricious, arbitrary, Zeus-like jerk," and we humans as hapless victims of His malice, caprice, and arbitrariness.

I"m not.  I alluded to scripture which describes the scene of God telling believers after they die that he never knew them.  Are you saying that's not a true scenario?  Are you saying God really would know them, even though He tells them He did not?  

32 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I am positing that you are not accurately stating the Latter-day Saint teachings about the nature of God, our relationship with Him, the Plan of Salvation, and so on.

That's bait and switch.  I've merely alluded to a scripture that describes a scene wherein God claims he never knew certain believers.  

32 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Through their own actions or inactions.  And not, as you suggest, because God is arbitrary, capricious, cruel, etc.

No.  No.  

You are not accurately stating our beliefs.  At all.  Not even a little.  "Many who are trying their best to follow God will be coldly rejected" is a wildly and flagrantly false characterization of our beliefs.  I reject it utterly.

Again, you are not accurately characterizing the doctrines of the Church.  You are instead using a gross mischaracterization of our beliefs to fabricate a "problematic {view}."

Dodge.

Atheism is as predicated on faith as theism.  Perhaps even more so.

Agnosticism is a somewhat different story.  

Or it suggests that God exists, but that different cultures and peoples have different perceptions and ideas about Him.  Some of these perceptions and ideas overlap from culture to culture.  Some are contradictory.  Some are, in my view, more correct and proximate to the truth of the matter as compared to others.

Meanwhile, the atheist sneers at the faith of others, all the while cherishing his own.

Sure seems like it.  

Unless, of course, God does exist.

And even then, we don't believe in "blam{ing}" him for our "issues or troubles."  God being some sort of malicious, capricious, arbitrary, Zeus-like jerk is what you are positing, remember ("Some will have pled with God their whole lives, thinking he's there listening, but in the end, He'll tell them He never knew them, and dismiss them because apparently He never really paid attention to them" ... "Many who are trying their best to follow God will be coldly rejected...").

You are substantially mischaracterizing our beliefs, and then expressing bitterness and anger based on that mischaracterization.  I don't think that works.

Thanks,

-Smac

You seem have to misunderstood me.  

[stemelbow]

23 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Uhhhhhhhhh.......nope.

As to the OP I have been angry at God to some degree for most of my life. I still am over some things.

Nothing I've said suggests one can't be exactly as you describe you are.  So I don't know what you intend by "Uhhhhh...nope".   One can be angry at God and and blame HIm and still feel it best to be a believer in God.  Good for you.  I'm simply saying some might be better off without feeling the obligation of believing in God.  

[smac97]

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

Quote

I'm not sure what you are asking here.  Have you read verse 21?  "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Of course I've read.  

Well, you asked a question, the answer for which is found in verse 21.

You then proceeded to substantially mischaracterize what we believe about the nature of God.

• "God will tell many, and if he is truthful it will be true, that he never even knew them.  Perhaps some will find eternal peace, but none of us know who those will be."
• "Many who are trying their best to follow God will be coldly rejected, being told God never knew them."

It seems pretty hard to square such mischaracterizations with the idea that the person doing the mischaracterizing is familiar with verse 21, or else is familiar with our beliefs about the nature of God.

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

Quote

You seem to be characterizing God as "some sort of malicious, capricious, arbitrary, Zeus-like jerk," and we humans as hapless victims of His malice, caprice, and arbitrariness.

I"m not. 

Again:

• "God will tell many, and if he is truthful it will be true, that he never even knew them.  Perhaps some will find eternal peace, but none of us know who those will be."
• "Many who are trying their best to follow God will be coldly rejected, being told God never knew them."

You are characterizing God as "some sort of malicious, capricious, arbitrary, Zeus-like jerk."  The phrase is mine, but you responded to it by saying "I don't really see how any of this does much but support my point."

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

I alluded to scripture which describes the scene of God telling believers after they die that he never knew them.  Are you saying that's not a true scenario? 

I am saying that you are not accurately stating our beliefs.  At all.  Not even a little.  "Many who are trying their best to follow God will be coldly rejected" is a wildly and flagrantly false characterization of our beliefs.  I reject it utterly.

Again, I encourage you to read verse 21.  And James 2:19 ("Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble").  And the teachings of the Church.  

Decontextualization doesn't work.  That is what you are doing.

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

Quote

I am positing that you are not accurately stating the Latter-day Saint teachings about the nature of God, our relationship with Him, the Plan of Salvation, and so on.

That's bait and switch. 

Again, you are not accurately stating the Latter-day Saint teachings about the nature of God, our relationship with Him, the Plan of Salvation, and so on.

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

I've merely alluded to a scripture that describes a scene wherein God claims he never knew certain believers.  

Oh, brother.  An atheist resorting to prooftexting the Bible.

This doesn't work, and I think you know it.

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

You seem have to misunderstood me.  

You seem to be intent on substantially mischaracterizing our beliefs, and then using that mischaracterization to find fault with us.

I ask that you reconsider doing that.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

10 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Quote

Uhhhhhhhhh.......nope.

As to the OP I have been angry at God to some degree for most of my life. I still am over some things.

Nothing I've said suggests one can't be exactly as you describe you are.  So I don't know what you intend by "Uhhhhh...nope".  

I suspect he was referencing the patently obvious "false dilemma" fallacy in your post:

Quote

Apparently, according to scripture, some people are just a lost cause.  Some will have pled with God their whole lives, thinking he's there listening, but in the end, He'll tell them He never knew them, and dismiss them because apparently He never really paid attention to them.   Many will hear but few will be chosen.  Some will hear and build their house appropriately, others will hear and build a flimsy house that gets washed away.  All we can do is try, apparently, and we won't really learn if our efforts were in vain or not until it's all said and done.  

Or

You can tell them there is no God and this religion nonsense is just nonsense so there's no point in getting angry and misplacing your anger in make believe stuff.  It might help.  Some are just much better equipped without religion, it seems.

Yep.  That one.

10 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

One can be angry at God and and blame HIm and still feel it best to be a believer in God.  Good for you.  I'm simply saying some might be better off without feeling the obligation of believing in God.  

You were "simply" offering a choice between A) a gross mischaracterization of our beliefs, and B) atheism.

I submit that there are more choices available.

Thanks,

-Smac