New Handbook, LGBT Policies Still the Same

[rockpond]

12 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Many of the things that once existed in the “Handbook”, that addressed specific issues having to do with specific callings. Many of which no longer exist, therefore a lot of content can be eliminated, or combined. For instance, the High Priests Group, and their specific duties, also the Young Men’s Presidency, and their specific duties, etc. With these callings now eliminated, and many of the duties now assigned to the remaining callings, or quorums, and even some activities having been done away with, it can allow for a smaller handbook, or at least just one volume.

Changes to the High Priests Group, YM presidency, and Young Women organization have already been made in previous revisions and this most recent revision of the two handbooks.

14 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

When it comes to our obsession as of late, concerning ”LGBQT”, or whatever the acronym is now, nothing I have heard, would suggest that policy was are is going to change. 

What was announced by the First Presidency in April and what was taught by President Nelson in September are different than what is currently published in the handbook (Oct 2019 revision).  It seems to me that our handbook should match prophetic announcements on a specific policy.

[rockpond]

11 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Well, was the entire handbook updated, or only select portions of the handbook? I would think that the announcement takes precedence unless or until the prophet says something different on the subject.

The outdated content in one section of the handbook doesn't suddenly become newly correct content just because some other portion of the handbook has been changed / updated first.

 

Somewhat true.  It's been over 7 months and two handbook revisions since the policy change was announced.  At some point, if the church continues to publish the policy in revision after revision, the announcements about a change will fade in memory and, since they are not readily accessible, I think leaders will default to what is published in the most recent handbook.

[Amulek]

6 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Somewhat true.  It's been over 7 months and two handbook revisions since the policy change was announced.  At some point, if the church continues to publish the policy in revision after revision, the announcements about a change will fade in memory and, since they are not readily accessible, I think leaders will default to what is published in the most recent handbook.

I think that's a fair concern. If the handbook never gets updated then, as new bishops are called over the coming years - who weren't necessarily paying attention to the policy previously - some of them may just fall back on the text of the handbook.

However, I think individuals who are actually affected by the policy (and who have been following it closely) will be able to simply point to the updated statements from the prophet when approaching church leaders for baptism, and they should be able to navigate the process without too much hardship. 

 

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, Amulek said:

I think that's a fair concern. If the handbook never gets updated then, as new bishops are called over the coming years - who weren't necessarily paying attention to the policy previously - some of them may just fall back on the text of the handbook.

However, I think individuals who are actually affected by the policy (and who have been following it closely) will be able to simply point to the updated statements from the prophet when approaching church leaders for baptism, and they should be able to navigate the process without too much hardship. 

That's true to the extent that in years to come (assuming it never gets updated) even members who are affected by the policy may either not know about the statements or not know how to find them.  Three years from now will someone remember that it was a BYU devotional in September 2019 on love and laws of God in which President Nelson brought up the policy change?  Five years from now, will the April 2019 press release be easy to find on Newsroom?  Should a member need to dig up old citations to show their bishop that the handbook policy is out of date?  That doesn't seem like a good system to me.

[2BizE]

Sounds like a standard bait and switch

[Boanerges]

21 hours ago, pogi said:

My Stake just had a "special" Stake Conference (we just had stake conference not long ago and they announced another "special" one) in which Elder Neil Anderson spoke.  Saturday night, only women were invited (I thought that was interesting, I've never seen that before).  In that women's session, Elder Anderson mentioned that he, Elder Christofferson, and one other apostle (can't remember which one) are currently working on a "simplified" handbook that will be available to all members.  It sounds like they are doing away with the two volume handbook and will be simplifying both volumes into one version available to all.  Perhaps changes to the policy will be seen in the version they are currently working on.  

We had regular stake conference a couple weeks back with a GA Seventy. He also mentioned the simplified handbook and said many "procedural" things are being eliminated.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Boanerges
Fixed typo

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

What was announced by the First Presidency in April and what was taught by President Nelson in September are different than what is currently published in the handbook (Oct 2019 revision).  It seems to me that our handbook should match prophetic announcements on a specific policy.

For my sake, and so I don’t have to listen to, or find the differences you speak of, could you tell me what they are. Since it is your thread, give us the entire picture, or context. If not, then just tell me (us) which comments, and where to find them, etc. Oh, and please do not forget how and where to find the comments in the handbooks of which you speak, since I don’t have a copy of my own. Or where to find it on line, because back in my days of serving in leadership positions, the Church did not publish any of this online. 

[rockpond]

50 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

For my sake, and so I don’t have to listen to, or find the differences you speak of, could you tell me what they are. Since it is your thread, give us the entire picture, or context. If not, then just tell me (us) which comments, and where to find them, etc. Oh, and please do not forget how and where to find the comments in the handbooks of which you speak, since I don’t have a copy of my own. Or where to find it on line, because back in my days of serving in leadership positions, the Church did not publish any of this online. 

I'll paste it all in below.  My only request is that this thread not become another discussion of the rightness/wrongness of the policy and church teachings on homosexuality.  That's been done to death here and there are other threads.  (I'm not suggesting that's your intent, just making the request of everyone.)

These are the original policy additions that were published four years ago on or near 5 Nov 2015:

6.7 Determining Whether a Disciplinary Council is Necessary
6.7.3  When a Disciplinary Council Is Mandatory
A disciplinary council must be held when evidence suggests that a member may have committed any of the following transgressions.
6.7.3.4 Apostasy ("Are in a same-gender marriage." is still listed as item #4 in the list)

16.13  Children of a Parent Living in a Same-Gender Relationship
A natural or adopted child of a parent living in a same-gender relationship, whether the couple is married or cohabiting, may not receive a name and a blessing.
A natural or adopted child of a parent living in a same-gender relationship, whether the couple is married or cohabiting, may be baptized and confirmed, ordained, or recommended for missionary service only as follows:
A mission president or a stake president may request approval from the Office of the First Presidency to baptize and confirm, ordain, or recommend missionary service for a child of a parent who has lived or is living in a same-gender relationship when he is satisfied by personal interviews that both of the following requirements are met:
1.  The child accepts and is committed to live the teachings and doctrine of the Church, and specifically disavows the practice of same-gender cohabitation and marriage.
2.  The child is of legal age and does not live with a parent who has lived or currently lives in a same-gender cohabitation relationship or marriage.

The sections in the most recent revision (Oct 2019, published in November) are identical to the above.  There was, however, one change made shortly after Nov 2015 but I don't know the exact date.  That change was that they added a link to the bottom of 16.13 that opened up the First Presidency letter dated 13 Nov 2015 that added the qualifier that the policy would only apply to children whose "primary residence is with a couple living in a same-gender marriage or similar relationship".

On 4 April 2019, the First Presidency made this announcement:  https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/first-presidency-messages-general-conference-leadership-session-april-2019?fbclid=IwAR034uRQWb5YUB_Z5mjRkow3sLshnaiH427EpbJ1WBrFNyOlpSbIff4sYW4

"At the direction of the First Presidency, President Oaks shared that effective immediately, children of parents who identify themselves as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender may be baptized without First Presidency approval if the custodial parents give permission for the baptism and understand both the doctrine that a baptized child will be taught and the covenants he or she will be expected to make."

And

"Previously, our handbook characterized same-gender marriage by a member as apostasy. While we still consider such a marriage to be a serious transgression, it will not be treated as apostasy for purposes of Church discipline. Instead, the immoral conduct in heterosexual or homosexual relationships will be treated in the same way."

There's a bit more there, you can use the link to read all of it.

On 17 September 2019, President Nelson gave a BYU devotional (streamed live on all church channels) and said:

"As a result of our continued supplication, we recently felt directed to adjust the policy such that the baptism of children of LGBT parents may be authorized by bishops without First Presidency approval, if the custodial parents request the baptism and understand that a child will be taught about sacred covenants to be made at baptism.

We also determined that LGBT parents may request that a baby be named and blessed by one who worthily holds the Melchizedek Priesthood. It is important that these parents understand that ward members will contact them periodically, and that when a child who has been blessed reaches eight years of age, local leaders will recommend that the child be baptized.

Finally, we also clarified that homosexual immorality would be treated in the eyes of the Church in the same manner as heterosexual immorality."

Link to full devotional:  https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/president-nelson-byu-transcript-september-2019

 

Edited November 19, 2019 by rockpond

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

That's true to the extent that in years to come (assuming it never gets updated) even members who are affected by the policy may either not know about the statements or not know how to find them. 

It's been my observation that people have a tendency to take an increased interest in the areas of life that impact them personally.

Have a family member with a rare genetic disease? Odds are: you're going to bone up on it. Married to a spouse with an alcohol addiction? Betting you're going to acquaint yourself with a 12-step program or two. 

With respect to the gospel, gay members of the church tend to be pretty conversant with respect to the church's teachings and policies regarding same sex behavior - even after a bit of time has passed.

 

Quote

Three years from now will someone remember that it was a BYU devotional in September 2019 on love and laws of God in which President Nelson brought up the policy change?  Five years from now, will the April 2019 press release be easy to find on Newsroom? 

If it's on the internet it's available forever. 

 

Quote

Should a member need to dig up old citations to show their bishop that the handbook policy is out of date?  That doesn't seem like a good system to me.

Agreed. If it never changes, I think it has the potential to cause issues. That being said, I think we're still a ways off from it being anything close to a significant problem.

 

[rockpond]

5 minutes ago, Amulek said:

It's been my observation that people have a tendency to take an increased interest in the areas of life that impact them personally.

Have a family member with a rare genetic disease? Odds are: you're going to bone up on it. Married to a spouse with an alcohol addiction? Betting you're going to acquaint yourself with a 12-step program or two. 

With respect to the gospel, gay members of the church tend to be pretty conversant with respect to the church's teachings and policies regarding same sex behavior - even after a bit of time has passed.

But there are many church members right at this moment who have no reason to believe that they have a gay loved one but will, in coming years, find out that they do.

5 minutes ago, Amulek said:

If it's on the internet it's available forever.

Will it be there?  Probably (although the Church has deleted content before).  But if you aren't aware that it exists, you won't know to go looking.  And even if you have a recollection of a press release that said "ABC" and a BYU devotional that said "XYZ" that doesn't mean you'll be able to track them down... this particular issue doesn't provide much in the way of unique search terms.

5 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Agreed. If it never changes, I think it has the potential to cause issues. That being said, I think we're still a ways off from it being anything close to a significant problem.

I agree with that as well.  But given all the changes that have been announced since 4-April and that have already made it into one of the two handbook revisions, it makes me wonder why this one has not.

[Metis_LDS]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

On 17 September 2019, President Nelson gave a BYU devotional (streamed live on all church channels) and said:

I agreed that this handbook updating issue should not of been.  So not as an excuse but something to think about in future.  As the Church grows the distance between the GA's and the people that publish this handbook increases.  It is okay to think that if something is online it can easily be changed and I do also.  The problem becomes multiple world languages. So maybe just maybe someone said well we can change this easily in English but there is not enough time to translate into other tongues. So maybe this is a mistake (caused by time pressures) or someone didn't get the email or it was decided not to change just the English version?   I am just guessing I really do not know.  What I am trying to say is as the organization gets bigger (think worldwide church) we may see more of these admin issues.

[rockpond]

38 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

I agreed that this handbook updating issue should not of been.  So not as an excuse but something to think about in future.  As the Church grows the distance between the GA's and the people that publish this handbook increases.  It is okay to think that if something is online it can easily be changed and I do also.  The problem becomes multiple world languages. So maybe just maybe someone said well we can change this easily in English but there is not enough time to translate into other tongues. So maybe this is a mistake (caused by time pressures) or someone didn't get the email or it was decided not to change just the English version?   I am just guessing I really do not know.  What I am trying to say is as the organization gets bigger (think worldwide church) we may see more of these admin issues.

Could be.  However...

Since 4 April 2019 when the changes were announced there have been dozens of changed sections in the handbooks, including changes that were announced as late as Oct 2019 conference.  Why are those able to be translated and published and this policy change is not?

At the very least, why not take April’s statement, translate it and insert it into the handbook as a temporary fix (like they did with the 13 Nov 2015 FP letter)?

Edited November 19, 2019 by rockpond

[Metis_LDS]

2 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Could be.  However...

Since 4 April 2019 when the changes were announced there have been dozens of changed sections in the handbooks, and including changes that were announced as late as Oct 2019 conference.  Why are those able to be translated and published and this policy change is not?

At the very least, why not take April’s statement, translate it and insert it into the handbook as a temporary fix (like they did with the 13 Nov 2015 FP letter)?

I am without comment when faced with your knowledge.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Metis_LDS

[CV75]

Perhaps another thing to wonder about is, "Why would the Lord's servants intentionally repeat messages to various audiences about a policy and delay the publication of its new wording in the Handbook?" 

[Amulek]

16 hours ago, rockpond said:

But there are many church members right at this moment who have no reason to believe that they have a gay loved one but will, in coming years, find out that they do.

Sure. But that's outside the scope of what I was talking about.

Those who have a yet-to-be-known gay loved one would only be indirectly impacted by the policy. If they are unaware of the policy it's not really a big deal; their ignorance wouldn't hinder a child from being baptized. 

The one who would be directly impacted by the policy however (i.e., the closeted gay parent of a child under the age of eight) probably has a very good idea of what the policy is. That's the point I was making.

And so long as he (or she) is aware of the situation, that's all that really matters.

 

Quote

Will it be there?  Probably (although the Church has deleted content before).  But if you aren't aware that it exists, you won't know to go looking.  And even if you have a recollection of a press release that said "ABC" and a BYU devotional that said "XYZ" that doesn't mean you'll be able to track them down... this particular issue doesn't provide much in the way of unique search terms.

Yes, it will still be there. The church doesn't have the power to delete information from the entire internet. It will always be available in some article, or blog, or cache, or archive, etc. 

And anything even remotely related to 'mormons and gays' is ridiculously easy to find - even years after the event has passed. 

 

Quote

I agree with that as well.  But given all the changes that have been announced since 4-April and that have already made it into one of the two handbook revisions, it makes me wonder why this one has not.

Your guess is as good as mine. Considering how poorly the last iteration was implemented perhaps they want to just Pharisee the heck out of it this time around and make sure no stone is left unturned - especially since whatever they produce is invariably going to be scrutinized in a way that the section covering when seminary teachers need to complete youth protection training won't be. 

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Amulek

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

On 11/18/2019 at 4:21 PM, rockpond said:

The newest Handbook 1 revision has been published online (labeled "October 2019").  Despite the First Presidency announcement in April of this year and President Nelson's September BYU devotional in which changes to the policy were announced, it still remains exactly the same in the Handbook (original 2015 policies are still there).

I've wondered about this, too. Not sure why it hasn't been updated yet. My hunch is that the entire section on church discipline and name removal is getting reworked, and that the change won't be reflected in the text until they're ready to "go live" with all of it. 

I have no reason for thinking that other than a hunch. I have no source or inside information. 

[rockpond]

39 minutes ago, DispensatorMysteriorum said:

I've wondered about this, too. Not sure why it hasn't been updated yet. My hunch is that the entire section on church discipline and name removal is getting reworked, and that the change won't be reflected in the text until they're ready to "go live" with all of it. 

I have no reason for thinking that other than a hunch. I have no source or inside information. 

That would explain why the Section 6.7 declaration that marrying someone of the same gender is apostasy still remains. And I’d welcome some updates to that section.

The section with the policy about youth of gay parents is in Section 16 (not part of church discipline and name removal). 

[Calm]

7 hours ago, DispensatorMysteriorum said:

I've wondered about this, too. Not sure why it hasn't been updated yet. My hunch is that the entire section on church discipline and name removal is getting reworked, and that the change won't be reflected in the text until they're ready to "go live" with all of it. 

I have no reason for thinking that other than a hunch. I have no source or inside information. 

This would not surprise me.  Doing it piecemeal might result in imbalance in wording that could get picked apart by critics as more meaningful than it is.

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

This would not surprise me.  Doing it piecemeal might result in imbalance in wording that could get picked apart by critics as more meaningful than it is.

I would agree with this idea if the section on children of gay parents was in the church discipline section.  But it isn’t.

The Nov 2015 change only added seven words to section 6.7:  “4.  Are in a same-gender marriage.”  Seems easy enough to just delete those six words.  No need to alter the rest of the section.  And it would then be consistent with the April 2019 message from the First Presidency. 

Edited November 21, 2019 by rockpond

[PacMan]

Put the whole discussion on pause for a month.  Just say'n.