The Nehor Posted September 16, 2019 Posted September 16, 2019 35 minutes ago, longview said: I read the wiki. But still no geological examples for long term transitions (over tens of millions of years (or whichever scale you wish to use)). The shorter the intervals and more frequent the layers would be ideal. Not even sure what you are asking for here. What transitions?
longview Posted September 16, 2019 Posted September 16, 2019 24 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Not even sure what you are asking for here. What transitions? The series of sub-species over time that show unmistakable changes from original specie to the new specie. You know, macro evolution.
SeekingUnderstanding Posted September 16, 2019 Posted September 16, 2019 (edited) 44 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Not even sure what you are asking for here. What transitions? Most people asking this question (since evidence of macro evolution in the fossil record is common place) fundamentally misunderstand what evolution is. From the creationist book The Amazing Story of Creation, by Duane T. Gish, I present the mercow transitional form: Edited September 16, 2019 by SeekingUnderstanding
Ahab Posted September 16, 2019 Posted September 16, 2019 20 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Most people asking this question (since evidence of macro evolution in the fossil record is common place) fundamentally misunderstand what evolution is. More correctly stated I think you are referring to evidence which some people refer to as evidence of macro evolution, but there is no evidence of any species actually becoming another species. There is only evidence of species which some people believe came from other species, usually because they see similarities between those species. Similarities don't really equate to some species coming from some other species, though. All that is evident is that some species are like some other species, and there is no good reason to suppose that all forms of life must be drastically different from all other kinds. 1
SeekingUnderstanding Posted September 16, 2019 Posted September 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, Ahab said: More correctly stated I think you are referring to evidence which some people refer to as evidence of macro evolution, but there is no evidence of any species actually becoming another species. There is only evidence of species which some people believe came from other species, usually because they see similarities between those species. I'm sorry but no. This is like saying there is no evidence that Modern English came from Old English (some people just see similarities between the languages), because no one person observed the whole process. 2
Ahab Posted September 16, 2019 Posted September 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: I'm sorry but no. This is like saying there is no evidence that Modern English came from Old English (some people just see similarities between the languages), because no one person observed the whole process. I don't agree with your analogy but I do see some similarities in our thought processes Jumping to conclusions should be avoided at all costs, usually.
Stargazer Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 5 hours ago, Ahab said: People come in all sorts of shapes and sizes, so skull shapes and sizes don't really necessarily determine whether or not someone or something is or was a person, as I see it. The skull would simply be the skull of either a person or an animal, like a gorilla, for example. Uh, yeah. Have you ever seen the skull of a Neanderthal compared to a modern human's? 5 hours ago, Ahab said: For ease of understanding it would be nice if so-called scientists would refer to a person as a person rather than a homo this or a homo that. If it's a person let's just call it a person, wherever and whenever it was born or reproduced by other people. Is an individual Neanderthal a person? Sure, why not? But stand a Neanderthal next to a modern human and it would be clear that there are significant differences. Would they be intelligent on a par with humans? I don't know. Would they be volitional, like humans, and with that subject to sin and redemption from sin? I don't know. I suppose that if they need salvation, and we'll be responsible for dealing with it, we'll address it during the Millennium. 1
longview Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Stargazer said: Is an individual Neanderthal a person? Sure, why not? But stand a Neanderthal next to a modern human and it would be clear that there are significant differences. Would they be intelligent on a par with humans? I don't know. Would they be volitional, like humans, and with that subject to sin and redemption from sin? I don't know. I suppose that if they need salvation, and we'll be responsible for dealing with it, we'll address it during the Millennium. Yes. What if they are descendents of Adam&Eve but their forebears ate vegetables that contained weird volatile chemical compounds? Dr. Jeckle Mr. Hyde effect? Genesis speaks of a race of giants. Whats up with that? Did they NOT make it to the ark?
The Nehor Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 6 hours ago, Ahab said: More correctly stated I think you are referring to evidence which some people refer to as evidence of macro evolution, but there is no evidence of any species actually becoming another species. There is only evidence of species which some people believe came from other species, usually because they see similarities between those species. Similarities don't really equate to some species coming from some other species, though. All that is evident is that some species are like some other species, and there is no good reason to suppose that all forms of life must be drastically different from all other kinds. We do not look at the animals and just say they look alike. It is more about genetic similarity. If species were created one by one why are there so many genetic similarities? Lack of imagination? 1
Stargazer Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 1 hour ago, longview said: Yes. What if they are descendents of Adam&Eve but their forebears ate vegetables that contained weird volatile chemical compounds? Dr. Jeckle Mr. Hyde effect? Genesis speaks of a race of giants. Whats up with that? Did they NOT make it to the ark? Yep, what if? Except that Neanderthal skeletons show that they were much shorter than us. I don't actually know where you're going with this. What difference does it make? Either they are subjects of salvation, or they're not, but whatever it is we are not responsible for dealing with it. 2
snowflake Posted September 17, 2019 Author Posted September 17, 2019 8 hours ago, longview said: Yes. What if they are descendents of Adam&Eve but their forebears ate vegetables that contained weird volatile chemical compounds? Dr. Jeckle Mr. Hyde effect? Genesis speaks of a race of giants. Whats up with that? Did they NOT make it to the ark? Somehow, it is hinted that the giants did survive the flood..... 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 1
Ahab Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 12 hours ago, Stargazer said: Uh, yeah. Have you ever seen the skull of a Neanderthal compared to a modern human's? Yeah I've been to that Smithsonian museum in DC. And I think it's amazing what some scientists can get away with doing, even when doing it in public! Ah, America. What a country! 12 hours ago, Stargazer said: Is an individual Neanderthal a person? Sure, why not? But stand a Neanderthal next to a modern human and it would be clear that there are significant differences. Would they be intelligent on a par with humans? I don't know. Would they be volitional, like humans, and with that subject to sin and redemption from sin? I don't know. I suppose that if they need salvation, and we'll be responsible for dealing with it, we'll address it during the Millennium. Have you ever seen the skull of a small person? And then compared that to the skull of a larger person? Or even a very large person, like Andre the Giant? Or even a more middle-sized person? Or the skull of a gorilla, or ape? It's amazing! It's as if people come in a lot of different shapes and sizes, even different sizes of people in different countries! Let's put Sherlock Holmes on this and see what he can determine!
Ahab Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 11 hours ago, The Nehor said: We do not look at the animals and just say they look alike. It is more about genetic similarity. If species were created one by one why are there so many genetic similarities? Lack of imagination? That is just the way different kinds of beings are and have always been. There has always been variety, with neither a beginning or end. Not just one kind of being, or 2 or 3, or 100, or 1000, or 1,000,000. There are and always have been different kinds of beings and different shapes and sizes even among the same kinds of beings. Just as there is now. It has always been thus. It's just that some people do not believe it so they insist there must be some other explanation. Oh well, everybody needs something to do, I suppose. 1
Ahab Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 12 hours ago, longview said: Yes. What if they are descendents of Adam&Eve but their forebears ate vegetables that contained weird volatile chemical compounds? Dr. Jeckle Mr. Hyde effect? Genesis speaks of a race of giants. Whats up with that? Did they NOT make it to the ark? Our Study Helps provide this info:Giants Unusually large, tall persons, apparently having great physical strength. They are mentioned both before the Flood (Gen. 6:4; Moses 8:18) and after (Num. 13:33; Deut. 2:10–11, 20; 3:11–13; 9:2; Josh. 15:8; 18:16). Raphah of Gath was said to be the father of several giants of whom Goliath was one (1 Sam. 17:4–7; 2 Sam. 21:16–22; 1 Chr. 20:6). A 12-fingered, 12-toed giant is also mentioned as one of the sons. The giants in Palestine were also known as Anakims, Emims, and Zamzummims. 1
pogi Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 On 9/16/2019 at 11:31 AM, Ahab said: What holes if any do you see in our understanding of how life on this planet began? I don't see any. I believe our understanding is that life was brought here from somewhere else and that there never was a time when there were no forms of life in all of existence. There are tons of holes in our understanding. First, even within our faith, there is not one single cohesive genesis theory that satisfies every members understanding - so you can't claim that "our" understanding is complete. I have personally heard many different theories from Latter-day Saints on this one little site alone. It is one thing to believe in a narrative or genesis theory, it is another to say that we have an in depth understanding of the who, what when, where, and how of all the mechanisms of creation. 2
Ahab Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 19 minutes ago, pogi said: There are tons of holes in our understanding. Heh, heh. tons of holes. I like the idea of trying to imagine that many holes. 19 minutes ago, pogi said: First, even within our faith, there is not one single cohesive genesis theory that satisfies every members understanding - so you can't claim that "our" understanding is complete. I have personally heard many different theories from Latter-day Saints on this one little site alone. It is one thing to believe in a narrative or genesis theory, it is another to say that we have an in depth understanding of the who, what when, where, and how of all the mechanisms of creation. No matter what we say we're never going to please everybody all of the time. And sure, there are still some specifics that I would like to know more about, but I think we have the... or at least I think I have the general overall picture for how every kind of living being reproduces itself. Especially my kind, or our kind. It just seems like common sense to me. Each kind of being reproduces however that kind of being does it, and I know enough already to know how to keep doing it forever and ever. I suppose there is always room for improvement and some new things to try once in a while, though.
The Nehor Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 9 hours ago, snowflake said: Somehow, it is hinted that the giants did survive the flood..... 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. I have a suspicion that the giants line is tied to the old Lugal (“big man”/king) designation. I suspect it is more likely they are talking about tyrants and leaders rather than a race of Goliaths.
Ahab Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I have a suspicion that the giants line is tied to the old Lugal (“big man”/king) designation. I suspect it is more likely they are talking about tyrants and leaders rather than a race of Goliaths. Did you not get my memo? 6 hours ago, Ahab said: Our Study Helps provide this info:Giants Unusually large, tall persons, apparently having great physical strength. They are mentioned both before the Flood (Gen. 6:4; Moses 8:18) and after (Num. 13:33; Deut. 2:10–11, 20; 3:11–13; 9:2; Josh. 15:8; 18:16). Raphah of Gath was said to be the father of several giants of whom Goliath was one (1 Sam. 17:4–7; 2 Sam. 21:16–22; 1 Chr. 20:6). A 12-fingered, 12-toed giant is also mentioned as one of the sons. The giants in Palestine were also known as Anakims, Emims, and Zamzummims.
The Nehor Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 7 hours ago, Ahab said: Yeah I've been to that Smithsonian museum in DC. And I think it's amazing what some scientists can get away with doing, even when doing it in public! Ah, America. What a country! Have you ever seen the skull of a small person? And then compared that to the skull of a larger person? Or even a very large person, like Andre the Giant? Or even a more middle-sized person? Or the skull of a gorilla, or ape? It's amazing! It's as if people come in a lot of different shapes and sizes, even different sizes of people in different countries! Let's put Sherlock Holmes on this and see what he can determine! You do realize that the shape is also different right? It is not just size. We can also tell (more or less) when a skull is an adult or child. 7 hours ago, Ahab said: That is just the way different kinds of beings are and have always been. There has always been variety, with neither a beginning or end. Not just one kind of being, or 2 or 3, or 100, or 1000, or 1,000,000. There are and always have been different kinds of beings and different shapes and sizes even among the same kinds of beings. Just as there is now. It has always been thus. It's just that some people do not believe it so they insist there must be some other explanation. Oh well, everybody needs something to do, I suppose. The village idiot is looking down loftily at us all in bemused contempt. Do you really think there are people dying right now that if you cleaned off their skull it would be cataloged as Neanderthal or Cro-Magnon? Really? 28 minutes ago, Ahab said: Heh, heh. tons of holes. I like the idea of trying to imagine that many holes. That is coming from me too so that is saying something.
The Nehor Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Ahab said: Did you not get my memo? Yes, I have read the Bible Dictionary. I consider it helpful but not authoritative and there are a few things in there that I think are just plain wrong.
Ahab Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: You do realize that the shape is also different right? It is not just size. We can also tell (more or less) when a skull is an adult or child. Uh huh. Yes. More or less. 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: The village idiot is looking down loftily at us all in bemused contempt. Try to pay no attention to him. He isn't very smart and feels contempt when he should not. 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: Do you really think there are people dying right now that if you cleaned off their skull it would be cataloged as Neanderthal or Cro-Magnon? Really? People or apes or gorillas. Yeah, something like that. They're either our kind of being or some other kind. 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: That is coming from me too so that is saying something. Yes I know. And you are funny too.
Ahab Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Yes, I have read the Bible Dictionary. I consider it helpful but not authoritative and there are a few things in there that I think are just plain wrong. Usually they just don't say enough on some things. I don't know why they felt so limited by page space. Now that we have e-books maybe someday they'll add a lot more content than they put in back then. I do recall reading more about the Nephalim than what I found in that dictionary this time. And somebody somewhere said something similar to what you said, that the giants were "nobles" or "greats" like Enoch and Methuselah and Melchizedek and people like that. Edited September 17, 2019 by Ahab
The Nehor Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 (edited) In some Christian and Judaic beliefs the Watchers were fallen angels that mated with human women to create hybrids (nephilim). These angels also taught science and sorcery to humanity to the point where in some books the humans even anticipated the Great Flood and thought they had power to avert it. Raphael is reported to have chained them. The story is pretty dubious though and does not appear to go back too far in Judaism’s history. In LDS cosmology they make no sense. There were no embodied beings to come to the earth and Joseph taught that all angels on this earth given missions are destined to be born on this earth or already have been. It is always possible there is something out there we do not know about but to me it seems more like a pastiche to explain (and vilify) the pagan hero legends they were surrounded by. Edited September 17, 2019 by The Nehor
Calm Posted September 18, 2019 Posted September 18, 2019 38 minutes ago, The Nehor said: You do realize that the shape is also different right? It is not just size. We can also tell (more or less) when a skull is an adult or child. I have read it as being the difference between the shape of a soccer ball (human) and a football (Neanderthal). The latter is much more elongated than the former. https://www.pri.org/file/human-neanderthal-skull-chartjpg
mfbukowski Posted September 18, 2019 Posted September 18, 2019 1 hour ago, pogi said: There are tons of holes in our understanding. First, even within our faith, there is not one single cohesive genesis theory that satisfies every members understanding - so you can't claim that "our" understanding is complete. I have personally heard many different theories from Latter-day Saints on this one little site alone. It is one thing to believe in a narrative or genesis theory, it is another to say that we have an in depth understanding of the who, what when, where, and how of all the mechanisms of creation. Paradigms are all the human mind can conceive because we now see only symbols, words essentially, and even those are through a "glass Darkly." We cannot know real truth until we see it all "face to face." The Bible is not a book of science. 1
Recommended Posts