Policies on Same Gender Marriage remain unchanged

[Hamba Tuhan]

7 hours ago, Ahab said:

The only way for you to know when a man is speaking as a prophet is for you to receive God's assurance that that man is speaking for him, saying what God wants to be said.

Oh, I agree! And when I hear words that tell me that I'm right about everything, it makes me feel really good, superior even. That's God's assurance to me through personal revelation, right?

By the way, did you read the Helaman reference? It's super clear on all these points. 

Edited August 30, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[rockpond]

51 minutes ago, Ahab said:

No, you don't seem to have understood me.  When you say something which is contrary to what God has told me, then I know you are wrong, even if you say God told you what you say God told you. 

I don't just take your word as God's word just because you are saying God told you something.   

I check with God for myself, without having to rely on someone else to act as an intermediary.   Well, other than Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost, I mean. I know they speak for God, too. And then God tells me when men have spoken as prophets, too.

Except in this case God is telling me that what you’ve claimed is wrong. 

[Storm Rider]

2 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Except in this case God is telling me that what you’ve claimed is wrong. 

That position is as old as the religion of Baal or any other religion of your choice. It is not surprising; it is not novel. It exists and will continue to exist. Some are sincere as the driven snow and we know of others that were fooled by the Evil One to do his bidding. 

Some individuals say God is over there; others say god is here. I am not sure of the value of their message. Like you, we follow the dictates of what we hear God to say and proclaim. 

Where we stand is on the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; of John the Baptist and Jesus Christ, Peter, Joseph, and Brigham. In scripture can be found what God thinks of those with contrary positions and false positions. I just hope we each can be found in his Grace at the Last Day.

[Ahab]

14 hours ago, rockpond said:

Except in this case God is telling me that what you’ve claimed is wrong. 

I'll leave you to work that out however you want, but I hope you know enough to know you should trust what God tells you regardless of what anyone else tells you.  That's what I do.  I trust what he tells me regardless of or at least more than what somebody else tells me.

[ALarson]

15 hours ago, Ahab said:

No, you don't seem to have understood me.  When you say something which is contrary to what God has told me, then I know you are wrong, even if you say God told you what you say God told you. 

I don't just take your word as God's word just because you are saying God told you something.   

And the same is true regarding what you state God has told you.

 

[Ahab]

23 minutes ago, ALarson said:

And the same is true regarding what you state God has told you.

That's good. That's the way it should be, for everybody. And I hope it was already understood without me having to tell you that I don't just automatically take your word as God's word, either.

Nobody should ever just automatically take someone else's word as God's word.  We should always check with God to find out for ourselves, and if they are or did God will give us his assurance about that.

It's another one of those blatantly obvious things that everybody should realize, I think.  And yet some people don't seem to realize that, as I do.

[Ahab]

16 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Oh, I agree!

Do you?  Do you, really?

16 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

And when I hear words that tell me that I'm right about everything, it makes me feel really good, superior even. That's God's assurance to me through personal revelation, right?

That you're right about everything?  And his assurance makes you feel superior to other people?  That sounds like something different than what I feel and think when God gives me his assurance so I would not say that feeling is coming from God.

16 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

By the way, did you read the Helaman reference? It's super clear on all these points. 

Yeah, and I think I"m okay as long as people don't want to throw rocks at me.  And maybe even if they do want to throw rocks at me. 

Imagine that you don't know who the good guys and bad guys are as you read that chapter.  Can you imagine how most people in the world would feel if someone talked to them like Samuel did to those Nephites?

Do you think Samuel felt he was right about everything?  Or that he felt superior to those other people?  And do you think he expected all of those Nephites to just take his word that he was speaking as a prophet of God?

[theplains]

17 hours ago, rockpond said:

I know that God honors the marriages and eternal commitments of His gay and lesbian children who have entered same gender relationships in the same way He honors the marriages and eternal commitments of those, gay or straight, who enter opposite sex relationships.

I think there are 7 biblical references to homosexuality.

2 refer to rape (Genesis 19:5, Judges 19:22)
3 refer to intercourse between men (Leviticus 18:21-22, Leviticus 20:13, Romans 1:27)
1 refers to intercourse between women (Romans 1:26)
1 refers to prostitution and possibly pederasty (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)
1 is general in nature (1 Timothy 1:8-10)

Do you have a reference to support your "I know" statement?

Thanks,
Jim

[CV75]

Jumping in late: God has told who what?

[rockpond]

Just now, theplains said:

I think there are 7 biblical references to homosexuality.

2 refer to rape (Genesis 19:5, Judges 19:22)
3 refer to intercourse between men (Leviticus 18:21-22, Leviticus 20:13, Romans 1:27)
1 refers to intercourse between women (Romans 1:26)
1 refers to prostitution and possibly pederasty (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)
1 is general in nature (1 Timothy 1:8-10)

Do you have a reference to support your "I know" statement?

Thanks,
Jim

My statement was a direct response to @Ahab's "I know" comment and we were referring to personal revelation.  I believe what I wrote.  I "know" it in the same way @Ahab knows what he knows.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

That's good. That's the way it should be, for everybody. And I hope it was already understood without me having to tell you that I don't just automatically take your word as God's word, either.

Nobody should ever just automatically take someone else's word as God's word.  We should always check with God to find out for ourselves, and if they are or did God will give us his assurance about that.

It's another one of those blatantly obvious things that everybody should realize, I think.  And yet some people don't seem to realize that, as I do.

I sure am happy those who make planes and self driving cars don't use this method to figure things out.😎

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I sure am happy those who make planes and self driving cars don't use this method to figure things out.😎

The method of relying on God's word to us, personally, is more prevalent than some people realize.  God's word to us comes as he gives us his assurance that something is right, or true, and good. 

So basically anytime we get a good idea that is right and true, that idea has come to us from God.  He gives us good insights and helps us to do and figure out what is good and true.

As opposed to bad ideas which comes from that guy we associate with all that is bad and false.

Self driving cars?  I'm still pondering that idea.  I"m fine with the idea as long as I am the self who is driving what I am in.

[Hamba Tuhan]

9 hours ago, rockpond said:

I "know" it in the same way @Ahab knows what he knows.

How exactly do you know how anyone else knows something?

[Nacho2dope]

“If we get an impression contrary to the scriptures, to the commandments of God, to the teachings of His leaders, then we know it can’t be coming from the Holy Ghost. The gospel is consistent throughout.” Dallin H. Oaks

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Nacho2dope said:

“If we get an impression contrary to the scriptures, to the commandments of God, to the teachings of His leaders, then we know it can’t be coming from the Holy Ghost. The gospel is consistent throughout.” Dallin H. Oaks

One of my favourite things, as I've mentioned a few times, is when the Spirit teaches me something quite new, and then just a few weeks or months later, often in General Conference, I hear an apostle teach the same thing. So sweet!

[rockpond]

3 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

How exactly do you know how anyone else knows something?

I believe we both confirmed that the knowledge we spoke of was through personal revelation from God.

[rockpond]

2 hours ago, Nacho2dope said:

“If we get an impression contrary to the scriptures, to the commandments of God, to the teachings of His leaders, then we know it can’t be coming from the Holy Ghost. The gospel is consistent throughout.” Dallin H. Oaks

What if the teachings of the leaders were wrong?

You see, the above quote goes against the idea of leader fallibility.

We teach that leaders are fallible and that we need to pray and get a confirmation that what they've taught is true.  But if you then say that your spiritual confirmations need to align with whatever the leaders teach, then effectively you've just said that the leaders are infallible.

[Hamba Tuhan]

30 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I believe we both confirmed that the knowledge we spoke of was through personal revelation from God.

And I literally have no idea what you actually mean when you say that. Did it involve an angel? A vision? Something else? What was said to you? What have you done to verify what was said? And so on  

[Nacho2dope]

7 hours ago, rockpond said:

What if the teachings of the leaders were wrong?

You see, the above quote goes against the idea of leader fallibility.

We teach that leaders are fallible and that we need to pray and get a confirmation that what they've taught is true.  But if you then say that your spiritual confirmations need to align with whatever the leaders teach, then effectively you've just said that the leaders are infallible.

 Well I think it is just terrific we can interpret this quote differently. I think our spiritual confirmation needs to align with God first. The problem is that everyone thinks they know what God really means when he give His commandments. Just like how we both interpreted the quote differently. I see on social media constantly everyone quoting the second commandment to love our neighbors, but they all seem to skip the first and great commandment to love God. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. If we did this then we would have no desire to change Gods Laws, teachings, or commandments. 

[Nacho2dope]

8 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

One of my favourite things, as I've mentioned a few times, is when the Spirit teaches me something quite new, and then just a few weeks or months later, often in General Conference, I hear an apostle teach the same thing. So sweet!

If it not to personal, could you share some of those experiences?

[marineland]

On 8/25/2019 at 12:41 AM, rockpond said:

I sustain these men as prophets, seers, and revelators.  I hope that they will give us leadership and guidance that is consistent with the will or God and that continues restoring a fullness of the gospel.  But the reality of active membership in the church for 4+ decades has dramatically lowered my expectations in that regard.

While I am not a member of this church, I understand where you are coming from. Part
of sustaining those in leadership is agreeing that what they are teaching us is the truth.
If one cannot accept their words as truth, then either the hearer is wrong in their
assessment or the teacher must be corrected.

[rockpond]

6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

And I literally have no idea what you actually mean when you say that. Did it involve an angel? A vision? Something else? What was said to you? What have you done to verify what was said? And so on  

Not relevant for you as it was a personal revelation.  To me.

[rockpond]

25 minutes ago, Nacho2dope said:

 I think our spiritual confirmation needs to align with God first.

Agreed.

25 minutes ago, Nacho2dope said:

The problem is that everyone thinks they know what God really means when he give His commandments.

I don't agree with this.  It's why I seek guidance through the Holy Ghost.

25 minutes ago, Nacho2dope said:

Just like how we both interpreted the quote differently. I see on social media constantly everyone quoting the second commandment to love our neighbors, but they all seem to skip the first and great commandment to love God. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. If we did this then we would have no desire to change Gods Laws, teachings, or commandments. 

This is an important point but I don't see what it has to do with the quote.

President Oaks' quote states that if you receive an impression that is contrary to the teachings of the leaders, than it can't be coming from the Holy Ghost.  In other words, our leaders' teaching can't be wrong.

[rockpond]

15 minutes ago, marineland said:

While I am not a member of this church, I understand where you are coming from. Part
of sustaining those in leadership is agreeing that what they are teaching us is the truth.

Agreeing that they are teaching us the truth?

Or praying that they will receive truth to teach us?

For me it is the latter.

15 minutes ago, marineland said:

If one cannot accept their words as truth, then either the hearer is wrong in their
assessment or the teacher must be corrected.

Agreed.

[Nacho2dope]

37 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Agreed.

I don't agree with this.  It's why I seek guidance through the Holy Ghost.

This is an important point but I don't see what it has to do with the quote.

President Oaks' quote states that if you receive an impression that is contrary to the teachings of the leaders, than it can't be coming from the Holy Ghost.  In other words, our leaders' teaching can't be wrong.

I appreciate your feedback and opinions. I think you are really focused on the word leader in the quote and trying to prove leaders can be wrong. If I said that leaders can’t ever be wrong then I apologize that is not what I meant. I think you and I will never agree and that is okay. Gods Laws and Commands are very clear to me, and I personally will follow them the best I can regardless of what others opinions may be. I will also not change them for my own    convenience. For just a silly example God has command we should not steal. Prophet also says we should not steal. Person says I don’t need this prophet telling me what to do, he doesn’t know me or my circumstances. God has better things to do then worry about anything that I have stolen, and I have personal revelation that I am right. Again just a silly example but unfortunately I hear similar things everyday. Again we may both be talking about different things. Thanks again for your thoughts. I look forward to interacting more in the future. Have a great weekend!!