Caffeine

[Scott Lloyd]

6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

The problem with making a "thing" out of this is that we get so wrapped around the axle with using wine or beer as a cooking ingredient and that leaves, what, 1 - 3% of the alcohol behind, that we turn completely into Pharisees.  Remember how the prohibition to cooking a calf in its mother's milk leads to the requirement for having two different sets of cooking pots, one for cooking things with milk, and the other for things without milk?  If the recipe calls for 60 ml of red wine that goes into a batter that ends up being 2 or 3 liters in volume, and is then baked for an hour, you're really going to worry about the ten molecules of ethanol that don't evaporate out?

Ever add vanilla extract to a dish while cooking it?  Well, better not do it again, because vanilla is extracted using alcohol.  Congratulations, you've just used an alcoholic drink to cook with.  Hand in your temple recommend.

 

 

Did you look at the link? The amount of residual alcohol after cooking is not nearly as minimal as I’ve been led to believe. I feel like I’ve been played. 

The best policy for me is just to avoid the wine and beer and whiskey altogether, even as cooking ingredients. That simplifies things immensely, contrary to pharisaically complicating them, as you imply. It’s the policy I’ve followed my whole life, and I don’t feel the least bit deprived as a result. I shall continue to follow it with no expected loss in quality of life. 

If the woman in Happy Jack’s story had followed a policy of avoiding anything coffee-like, she wouldn’t have had the trauma of giving up her McDonald’s treat under penalty of losing her temple recommend. 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

Good for that bishop imo

[SeekingUnderstanding]

8 hours ago, Stargazer said:

The problem with making a "thing" out of this is that we get so wrapped around the axle with using wine or beer as a cooking ingredient and that leaves, what, 1 - 3% of the alcohol behind, that we turn completely into Pharisees.  Remember how the prohibition to cooking a calf in its mother's milk leads to the requirement for having two different sets of cooking pots, one for cooking things with milk, and the other for things without milk?  If the recipe calls for 60 ml of red wine that goes into a batter that ends up being 2 or 3 liters in volume, and is then baked for an hour, you're really going to worry about the ten molecules of ethanol that don't evaporate out?

Ever add vanilla extract to a dish while cooking it?  Well, better not do it again, because vanilla is extracted using alcohol.  Congratulations, you've just used an alcoholic drink to cook with.  Hand in your temple recommend.

 

 

From Greg Price’s biography of President McKay:

At a reception McKay attended, the hostess served rum cake.  “All the guests hesitated, watching to see what McKay would do.  He smacked his lips and began to eat.”  When one guest expostulated, “‘But President McKay, don’t you know that is rum cake?’  McKay smiled and reminded the guest that the Word of Wisdom forbade drinking alcohol, not eating it.”⁸⁶

[Scott Lloyd]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

Good for that bishop imo

????

Good for what bishop? What are you referring to? 

Edited to add: Oh, I see now. You’re saying good for the bishop who gave the lesson on energy drinks. 

I agree. 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

15 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

From Greg Price’s biography of President McKay:

At a reception McKay attended, the hostess served rum cake.  “All the guests hesitated, watching to see what McKay would do.  He smacked his lips and began to eat.”  When one guest expostulated, “‘But President McKay, don’t you know that is rum cake?’  McKay smiled and reminded the guest that the Word of Wisdom forbade drinking alcohol, not eating it.”⁸⁶

I thought the thing on this board was to condemn the belief that Church leaders are infallible. My observance of the Word of Wisdom does not depend on whether individual Church leaders, past or present, have observed it perfectly. 

Incidentally, I have a story of my own to share.

Some years ago, when covering the dedication of the Columbia South Carolina Temple for the Church News, I found myself through an unexpected set of circumstances seated at lunch in the restaurant of the city’s main hotel with President Gordon B. Hinckley and those traveling with him. 

His daughter, upon discovering that a dessert her father was about to consume was mocha flavored, quickly returned to the buffet table and obtained a dessert for the prophet to enjoy that did not contain coffee. From this I concluded that it was President Hinckley’s practice to avoid foods containing substances prohibited in the Word of Wisdom.

So I’ll see your hearsay tale from 60-odd years ago and raise you one from my personal observation much later.

 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[The Nehor]

On 8/13/2019 at 3:42 PM, HappyJackWagon said:

I remember being really shocked while doing a TR interview with an elderly woman. She had been a temple worker for many years so when she told me she kept the word of wisdom I had no reason to suspect otherwise. As we were talking she mentioned that she really loves those "coffee flavored" shakes from McDonalds. I asked her what shake she meant and she said it was one of those caramel frappacinos (or something like that). I asked her if she realized that it tasted like coffee because it had coffee in it but she didn't believe me. She thought it was like the coffee flavored ice cream at the store. It took some work but I finally convinced her that it was a coffee product and she committed to stop drinking them...but she was a bit sad about it  

Some of those drinks are so much ice cream, whipped cream, caramel sauce etc that it's probably only 2% coffee. I'm sure there's more than 2% alcohol in Nyquil but that's ok, I guess. Or who has ever drank Kombucha? .5% alcohol, but it's so miniscule that even a kid could go in and buy one.

All of that to say...it was probably a good thing that they clarified some of this because I'm sure there are many people who unwittingly partake of the delicious "coffee flavored" shakes and other goodies at the store. But then again, I guess we all have to ask ourselves whether or not we believe God really has a preference about whether we get a 2000 calorie shake or a 2000 calorie frappucino from McDonalds.

The real crime is that she got a temple recommend when she eats at McDonalds.

[provoman]

36 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The real crime is that she got a temple recommend when she eats at McDonalds.

Not everyone lives in Zion where Whataburger is served.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, provoman said:

Not everyone lives in Zion where Whataburger is served.

The only reason to go to Whataburger is that it is 4 am and nothing else is open.

[Stargazer]

17 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Did you look at the link?

No, because I used to be a chemistry major and was aware of it already. 

17 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The amount of residual alcohol after cooking is not nearly as minimal as I’ve been led to believe. I feel like I’ve been played. 

Definitely, because until 95% alcohol is reached it's mostly water that comes off. Thereafter equally. How else could 190 proof Everclear be produced? Water and ethanol form an azeotropic mixture. Look up the word if you want detailed info. AKA "constant boiling mixture."

If you put only a small amount into your recipe then there will be minimal alcohol to start with.

17 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The best policy for me is just to avoid the wine and beer and whiskey altogether, even as cooking ingredients. That simplifies things immensely, contrary to pharisaically complicating them, as you imply. 

Sure, it's a good policy, no argument here. My Pharisaic problem is when people start acting like alcohol is the Word of Wisdom. It isn't. Does your wife use vanilla or other extracts in her cooking? If so, she is cooking with booze. There are foods that may naturally contain alcohol. Must they be avoided, regardless of alcohol percentage, as a kind of zero tolerance policy? This is what I mean by trending onto phariseeism.

17 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It’s the policy I’ve followed my whole life, and I don’t feel the least bit deprived as a result. I shall continue to follow it with no expected loss in quality of life.

Again, no argument here. I wouldn't feel deprived either.

17 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If the woman in Happy Jack’s story had followed a policy of avoiding anything coffee-like, she wouldn’t have had the trauma of giving up her McDonald’s treat under penalty of losing her temple recommend. 

"Coffee-like"? What, no Postum? 

A lot of people think they like coffee, when it's mainly the other flavors in the cappuchino and frappachino that they like. Coffee itself is awful, and when I drank it as a Gentile I had to gussey it up with plenty of sugar and cream. Tea was marginally harder for me to give up, but not much.

I like this trauma thing! After the missionaries taught me the Word of Wisdom I was traumatized having to give up my iced tea! Oh, woe is me. Not.

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Sure, it's a good policy, no argument here. My Pharisaic problem is when people start acting like alcohol is the Word of Wisdom. It isn't. Does your wife use vanilla or other extracts in her cooking? If so, she is cooking with booze. There are foods that may naturally contain alcohol. Must they be avoided, regardless of alcohol percentage, as a kind of zero tolerance policy? This is what I mean by trending onto phariseeism.

It is fun to point out to these pharasaic people that the human body naturally produces small amounts of alcohol.  

[Stargazer]

10 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It is fun to point out to these pharasaic people that the human body naturally produces small amounts of alcohol.  

In the large intestine, as I understand it.

There have been rare cases of people whose digestive systems produced enough alcohol to make them legally too drunk to drive. Even if they hadn't had a drink in weeks.

[The Nehor]

19 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

In the large intestine, as I understand it.

There have been rare cases of people whose digestive systems produced enough alcohol to make them legally too drunk to drive. Even if they hadn't had a drink in weeks.

Yeah, I work in drug and alcohol testing and it is very rare in general and very very rare for anyone to have it badly enough to pass the legal limit without actually drinking. I have heard people try to use it to get out of a bit in most jurisdictions you would have to have it checked out on your own dime to prove it.

[Stargazer]

17 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, I work in drug and alcohol testing and it is very rare in general and very very rare for anyone to have it badly enough to pass the legal limit without actually drinking. I have heard people try to use it to get out of a bit in most jurisdictions you would have to have it checked out on your own dime to prove it.

Yep. Rare. 

Would that make cannibalizing such a person against the Word of Wisdom then?  Hmmm.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

No, because I used to be a chemistry major and was aware of it already. 

Definitely, because until 95% alcohol is reached it's mostly water that comes off. Thereafter equally. How else could 190 proof Everclear be produced? Water and ethanol form an azeotropic mixture. Look up the word if you want detailed info. AKA "constant boiling mixture."

If you put only a small amount into your recipe then there will be minimal alcohol to start with.

Sure, it's a good policy, no argument here. My Pharisaic problem is when people start acting like alcohol is the Word of Wisdom. It isn't. Does your wife use vanilla or other extracts in her cooking? If so, she is cooking with booze. There are foods that may naturally contain alcohol. Must they be avoided, regardless of alcohol percentage, as a kind of zero tolerance policy? This is what I mean by trending onto phariseeism.

Again, no argument here. I wouldn't feel deprived either.

"Coffee-like"? What, no Postum? 

A lot of people think they like coffee, when it's mainly the other flavors in the cappuchino and frappachino that they like. Coffee itself is awful, and when I drank it as a Gentile I had to gussey it up with plenty of sugar and cream. Tea was marginally harder for me to give up, but not much.

I like this trauma thing! After the missionaries taught me the Word of Wisdom I was traumatized having to give up my iced tea! Oh, woe is me. Not.

HJW said it took some doing to get her to grasp it and that she was “sad” when he was finally able to drive the point home that her temple recommend depended on it. That’s what I had reference to. 

Anybody who has tried coffee and Postum will tell you they are not alike. And the distinction is long-entrenched in our culture. Postum used to be advertised in the Improvement Era, back when the Church magazines carried advertising (I’m old enough to remember that). My parents gave me Postum in my toddlerhood. I don’t think any parents do that with coffee. To this day I drink Postum but have never tasted coffee.

And I doubt very many people would seriously argue that cooking with vanilla is like cooking with liquor or wine or even beer.

 

Edited August 17, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

It is fun to point out to these pharasaic people that the human body naturally produces small amounts of alcohol.  

I don’t think I’ve ever met anybody extreme enough to be fazed by that. I hope you don’t think I am. 

[The Nehor]

17 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don’t think I’ve ever met anybody extreme enough to be fazed by that. I hope you don’t think I am. 

I do not but I am sure they exist and I want to find one.

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I do not but I am sure they exist and I want to find one.

Maybe they’re like Hillary Clinton’s “basket of deplorables,” more of a mythic icon than a reality. 

[Stargazer]

19 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Did you look at the link? The amount of residual alcohol after cooking is not nearly as minimal as I’ve been led to believe. I feel like I’ve been played. 

The best policy for me is just to avoid the wine and beer and whiskey altogether, even as cooking ingredients. That simplifies things immensely, contrary to pharisaically complicating them, as you imply. It’s the policy I’ve followed my whole life, and I don’t feel the least bit deprived as a result. I shall continue to follow it with no expected loss in quality of life. 

If the woman in Happy Jack’s story had followed a policy of avoiding anything coffee-like, she wouldn’t have had the trauma of giving up her McDonald’s treat under penalty of losing her temple recommend. 

Requoting this because my previous reply was done using my tablet while in bed and I can't type fast enough on the tablet and I wanted to say:

Earlier I wrote that "alcohol is not the Word of Wisdom".  Constant boiling mixtures and "proof" as a measure of alcoholic content aside, the mere presence of alcohol in a food or beverage should not be, in my humble opinion, the deciding factor in these matters.  As I mentioned, "pure vanilla extract" contains alcohol, and by FDA regulation must contain at least 35% alcohol.  That is equal to the minimum alcohol content of tequila, and verges on the minimum for whiskey (40%).  Yet plenty of Latter-day Saints are happy to follow recipes that call for it.  Must they be directed to stop?  By the way, the reason behind the alcohol content is that the chemicals that make up the flavors associated with the vanilla bean generally don't dissolve well in water, but do dissolve in ethanol.  This is the reason why many medications taken by mouth come in an ethanol base.

Now, you can get vanilla flavor that contains no alcohol, although in these cases it will be artificially produced flavoring, with vanillin originating from petrochemicals. At least in these days -- artificial vanillin used to be made from wood processing waste products, including creosote.  Yum!

As a practical matter, take a particular chili recipe I know of that calls for about 12 ozs of beer, which is added to other ingredients, making up around 128 ozs of finished chili (a gallon).  That's roughly 10% beer content, which if we consider the beer to contain 5% alcohol, means the finished chili contains about 0.6 oz of alcohol.  Or about as much alcohol as a cake made with a teaspoon of vanilla extract.  Is it really worth getting bent around the axle over?   By the way, the point of the beer isn't the alcohol. It's the other components, such as hops and malt and so on.  These agents impart flavors not (easily) obtainable in other ways.

The reason I am saying that alcohol is not the Word of Wisdom is that we are surrounded by foodstuffs that may be created with small amounts of alcohol in them, and we don't even know it.  There is a difference between drinking a beer and eating chili made with a small amount of beer.  And by the way,  the WoW allows for "mild drinks", which beer is (see verse 17).  I wouldn't drink the stuff, mind you, but having beer-battered fish for dinner does not, in my humble opinion, constitute a violation of the WoW.  And if you use alcohol-free beer (it exists), it's still beer nevertheless.

How many Latter-day Saints won't drink root beer because of the word "beer"?  I've known Latter-day Saints who won't drink peppermint tea because of the word "tea", even after it is pointed out that "tea" refers to the plant camellia sinensis, and not to peppermint.

 

 

 

[Stargazer]

53 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

HJW said it took some doing to get her to grasp it and that she was “sad” when he was finally able to drive the point home that her temple recommend depended on it. That’s what I had reference to. 

I know.  "Trauma" was the word you used, so I played with it. 🙂 

My wife was born LDS in a very observant family (as I mentioned I'm a convert with some Gentile experiences behind me). She had never had "black tea", and happened to be at a restaurant a couple of years ago with an old friend from her nursing school days.  The friend recommended the Chai drink offered at the restaurant, and she tried it and really liked it. She was saddened when I pointed out to her that it was black tea (because she liked it), and mortified that she had broken the Word of Wisdom.  I suggested to her that ignorance of the law was a great excuse in this case and she didn't need to confess to the bishop -- just remember the taste so she didn't get ambushed again.  And I also gave her some information she could use, like "green tea" is "black tea" and so on.  Lot's of fancy names for the same stuff.

53 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Anybody who has tried coffee and Postum will tell you they are not alike.

No, they are not, but Postum is intended as a coffee substitute.  And it tastes just as bad, in my humble opinion.

53 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

And the distinction is long-entrenched in our culture. Postum used to be advertised in the Improvement Era, back when the Church magazines carried advertising (I’m old enough to remember that). My parents gave me Postum in my toddlerhood. I don’t think any parents do that with coffee. To this day I drink Postum but have never tasted coffee.

You're not missing anything.  My stepmom used to love black coffee (no cream nor sugar) and she preferred it scalding hot.  Yikes!

Coffee also gives you bad breath, unlike Postum.  It's odd, because the smell of roasting coffee beans is quite attractive, to me at least.

53 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

And I doubt very many people would seriously argue that cooking with vanilla is like cooking with liquor or wine or even beer.

See my earlier post on that.  Seriously arguing it or not, a teaspoon of vanilla extract in your cake would deliver about the same amount of alcohol as a teaspoon of Irish whiskey. And you wouldn't taste the alcohol in either case -- the flavor components are not the alcohol.  And the object isn't inebriation.

Do you see why I say that alcohol is not the Word of Wisdom?

[The Nehor]

46 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Maybe they’re like Hillary Clinton’s “basket of deplorables,” more of a mythic icon than a reality. 

[Scott Lloyd]

36 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Requoting this because my previous reply was done using my tablet while in bed and I can't type fast enough on the tablet and I wanted to say:

Earlier I wrote that "alcohol is not the Word of Wisdom".  Constant boiling mixtures and "proof" as a measure of alcoholic content aside, the mere presence of alcohol in a food or beverage should not be, in my humble opinion, the deciding factor in these matters.  As I mentioned, "pure vanilla extract" contains alcohol, and by FDA regulation must contain at least 35% alcohol.  That is equal to the minimum alcohol content of tequila, and verges on the minimum for whiskey (40%).  Yet plenty of Latter-day Saints are happy to follow recipes that call for it.  Must they be directed to stop?  By the way, the reason behind the alcohol content is that the chemicals that make up the flavors associated with the vanilla bean generally don't dissolve well in water, but do dissolve in ethanol.  This is the reason why many medications taken by mouth come in an ethanol base.

Now, you can get vanilla flavor that contains no alcohol, although in these cases it will be artificially produced flavoring, with vanillin originating from petrochemicals. At least in these days -- artificial vanillin used to be made from wood processing waste products, including creosote.  Yum!

As a practical matter, take a particular chili recipe I know of that calls for about 12 ozs of beer, which is added to other ingredients, making up around 128 ozs of finished chili (a gallon).  That's roughly 10% beer content, which if we consider the beer to contain 5% alcohol, means the finished chili contains about 0.6 oz of alcohol.  Or about as much alcohol as a cake made with a teaspoon of vanilla extract.  Is it really worth getting bent around the axle over?   By the way, the point of the beer isn't the alcohol. It's the other components, such as hops and malt and so on.  These agents impart flavors not (easily) obtainable in other ways.

The reason I am saying that alcohol is not the Word of Wisdom is that we are surrounded by foodstuffs that may be created with small amounts of alcohol in them, and we don't even know it.  There is a difference between drinking a beer and eating chili made with a small amount of beer.  And by the way,  the WoW allows for "mild drinks", which beer is (see verse 17).  I wouldn't drink the stuff, mind you, but having beer-battered fish for dinner does not, in my humble opinion, constitute a violation of the WoW.  And if you use alcohol-free beer (it exists), it's still beer nevertheless.

How many Latter-day Saints won't drink root beer because of the word "beer"?  I've known Latter-day Saints who won't drink peppermint tea because of the word "tea", even after it is pointed out that "tea" refers to the plant camellia sinensis, and not to peppermint.

 

 

 

I agree with you about herbal tea not being real tea, and I’ve encountered some folks on this board who seem confused on that point. 

But do you really think there are those who think root beer is actually beer? 

Edited August 17, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Stargazer]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

But do you really think there are those who think root beer is actually beer? 

😄 Haven't met anyone yet, but I betcha there's at least one out there!  

[MustardSeed]

11 hours ago, Stargazer said:

😄 Haven't met anyone yet, but I betcha there's at least one out there!  

Ginger beer anyone? 

[Stargazer]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Not taking it!  LOL

What film is this meme from?

[Calm]

46 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Not taking it!  LOL

What film is this meme from?

Guessing the newer mad max film?

Ha!  Just searched it and I am right. Recognized the actor. Looked at his credits. 

Edited August 17, 2019 by Calm