Metis_LDS Posted June 7, 2019 Posted June 7, 2019 1 hour ago, longview said: In any case I am confident in the next stage we will be able to review the histories in a very real manner so that we will know without a doubt what actually did happen. Yes I have always believed this also. Nothing will be hidden. 1
Popular Post Kevin Christensen Posted June 7, 2019 Popular Post Posted June 7, 2019 15 hours ago, changed said: Great - so why do the TR ?'s force Mormons to follow authority figures? if, you know, the upper stages reject authority figures? 3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church? In addition to Mark's and Pogi's apt points, it also helps to look up "sustain" in a good dictionary. It is a super word, describing a full range of responses that any viable organization ought to get from its members if it is to survive the humanity of those members. Sustain 1. To keep up; keep going; maintain. Aid, assist, comfort. 2. to supply as with food or provisions: 3. to hold up; support 4. to bear; endure 5. to suffer; experience: to sustain a broken leg. 6. to allow; admit; favor 7. to agree with; confirm. This means that I as a member of the gathering, as part of the church, when I raise my hand to sustain other members in their callings, I promise God that at the very least, I will put up with whatever difficulties arise. We all have choices to make in dealing with people who don’t live up to our expectations. One involves whether to adjust our own expectations. Another involves whether to resent people for being human, or to forgive them, as well as ourselves, for being human. Our choices turn out to affect the quality of our lives as well as our faith. FWIW, Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA 9
pogi Posted June 7, 2019 Posted June 7, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Carborendum said: You may be right. Perhaps I was speaking too generally. What I was more focused on is the idea that when people depend upon themselves so much that they tend to come up with the wrong answers. And for the most part, the more spiritual and eternal the subject, the less accurate "looking inside oneself" tends to be. I believe that when we look inside ourselves we tend to feel more about what we ourselves "want to be right" rather than what we feel/know to "be right." Perhaps we are simply interpreting what it means to "look inside oneself" differently. Perhaps you are interpreting it as leaning to your own understanding as in: "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding (Proverbs 3:5)". I mean something else by it. There is a lot that goes on inside, and when you sit still in introspection and meditation, it becomes evident how scattered and distracted we really are. It really can be a mess inside. We are full of ideas, fears, shame, hope, love, passion, etc. all fighting for attention at the same time. The point of prayerful introspection and meditation is to quiet the loud static noise of distraction that drowns out the still small voice, the light of Christ, and manifestation of God that rests quietly within all of us, awaiting our simple, quiet, inward attention. If we want to discover God, we need look no further than within our own hearts. "Be still and know that I am God." It is this kind of introspection and "looking inside oneself" that I am speaking of. If we are looking for God externally, we are looking in the wrong place. God's voice, power, influence, and light abides in the present, in our hearts; It has always been there. We have simply become distracted and neglect to give it attention. The key to fellowship with the consciousness of God is meditation and introspection a.k.a prayer. Quote Consciousness of God is the highest achievement in human experience and is the supreme goal of human life. This is true religion. It is a mental, spiritual experience of the highest order... Meditation is one of the most secret, most sacred doors through which we pass into the presence of the Lord. Jesus set the example for us. As soon as he was baptized and received the Father's approval—"This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased" Jesus repaired to what is now known as the Mount of Temptation where, during forty days of fasting, he communed with himself and his Father and contemplated the responsibility of his own great mission. One result of this spiritual communion was such strength as enabled him to say to the tempter: "Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve" Before he gave the beautiful Sermon on the Mount, he was in solitude, in communion. He did the same thing after that busy Sabbath day, when he arose early in the morning after having been the guest of Peter. Peter undoubtedly found the guest chamber empty, and when he and others sought Jesus, they found him alone It was on that morning that they said: "All men seek for thee" Again, after Jesus had fed the 5,000, he told the Twelve to dismiss the multitude. Then Jesus, the historian says, went to the mountain for solitude; and "when the evening was come, he was there alone" Meditation! Prayer! David O. McKay The light of God abides within. All experience and communion with it can only happen through prayerful introspection and "looking inside oneself". That is the only way we can fulfill the following scripture: Quote That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day. In summary, I see your point that looking inside oneself can be dangerous if you are listening to the wrong voices, I agree. Looking in oneself can be helpful or hurtful, it all depends on what you are looking for and listening to - but it is the ONLY way to discover God so it is worth every effort. Edited June 7, 2019 by pogi 3
mfbukowski Posted June 7, 2019 Posted June 7, 2019 2 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said: This means that I as a member of the gathering, as part of the church, when I raise my hand to sustain other members in their callings, I promise God that at the very least, I will put up with whatever difficulties arise. We all have choices to make in dealing with people who don’t live up to our expectations. One involves whether to adjust our own expectations. Another involves whether to resent people for being human, or to forgive them, as well as ourselves, for being human. Our choices turn out to affect the quality of our lives as well as our faith. Very well said and the crux of the issue. "Sustaining" someone does not mean a declaration of infallibility any more than "sustaining" an ill relative means you have made them infallible We sustain our spouses, hopefully with no illusions! 4
mfbukowski Posted June 7, 2019 Posted June 7, 2019 2 hours ago, pogi said: Perhaps we are simply interpreting what it means to "look inside oneself" differently. Perhaps you are interpreting it as leaning to your own understanding as in: "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding (Proverbs 3:5)". I mean something else by it. There is a lot that goes on inside, and when you sit still in introspection and meditation, it becomes evident how scattered and distracted we really are. It really can be a mess inside. We are full of ideas, fears, shame, hope, love, passion, etc. all fighting for attention at the same time. The point of prayerful introspection and meditation is to quiet the loud static noise of distraction that drowns out the still small voice, the light of Christ, and manifestation of God that rests quietly within all of us, awaiting our simple, quiet, inward attention. If we want to discover God, we need look no further than within our own hearts. "Be still and know that I am God." It is this kind of introspection and "looking inside oneself" that I am speaking of. If we are looking for God externally, we are looking in the wrong place. God's voice, power, influence, and light abides in the present, in our hearts; It has always been there. We have simply become distracted and neglect to give it attention. The key to fellowship with the consciousness of God is meditation and introspection a.k.a prayer. The light of God abides within. All experience and communion with it can only happen through prayerful introspection and "looking inside oneself". That is the only way we can fulfill the following scripture: In summary, I see your point that looking inside oneself can be dangerous if you are listening to the wrong voices, I agree. Looking in oneself can be helpful or hurtful, it all depends on what you are looking for and listening to - but it is the ONLY way to discover God so it is worth every effort. Brilliant, thanks! 1
The Nehor Posted June 7, 2019 Posted June 7, 2019 5 hours ago, changed said: Have you been perfected Nehor? Yes, on Tuesday. I am hurt that you did not notice. 2
pogi Posted June 7, 2019 Posted June 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Yes, on Tuesday. I am hurt that you did not notice. Your being modest. Based on your posts, I would say at least Sunday or Monday. 2
bluebell Posted June 7, 2019 Posted June 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Yes, on Tuesday. I am hurt that you did not notice.
The Nehor Posted June 7, 2019 Posted June 7, 2019 1 minute ago, pogi said: Your being modest. Based on your posts, I would say at least Sunday or Monday. I got diagnosed with ADHD on Tuesday. Therefore it can be concluded that drugs are the pathway to perfection.
pogi Posted June 7, 2019 Posted June 7, 2019 8 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I got diagnosed with ADHD on Tuesday. Therefore it can be concluded that drugs are the pathway to perfection. They can open your mind to a larger consciousness. I knew that Jerry Garcia was onto something! 1
The Nehor Posted June 7, 2019 Posted June 7, 2019 1 minute ago, pogi said: They can open your mind to a larger consciousness. I knew that Jerry Garcia was onto something! Seriously, I did not realize how much I was coping with. Within 30 minutes of taking it it was eerie. Life was suddenly on easy mode. All the fighting myself to do everything was gone. I am even considering becoming a bigot now that I am allowed to rant about neurotypicals. 4
Calm Posted June 7, 2019 Posted June 7, 2019 (edited) 43 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I got diagnosed with ADHD on Tuesday. Therefore it can be concluded that drugs are the pathway to perfection. Seriously? My daughter wanted to be ADHD as she thought that explained so much and could be treated decently...she wasn't (I was pretty sure those issues would be the sleep disorder, very often misdiagnosed as ADHD in children as sleep deprivation wires them, etc). Congratulations on finding something that helps. It makes a huge difference to understand at least some of what is going on inside one, in my experience even when nothing can be done...though better when something can be done. Edited June 7, 2019 by Calm 1
The Nehor Posted June 7, 2019 Posted June 7, 2019 36 minutes ago, pogi said: They can open your mind to a larger consciousness. I knew that Jerry Garcia was onto something! I prefer the “drugs are nature’s hugs” viewpoint. 1
The Nehor Posted June 7, 2019 Posted June 7, 2019 5 minutes ago, Calm said: Seriously? My daughter wanted to be ADHD as she thought that explained so much and could be treated decently...she wasn't (I was pretty sure those issues would be the sleep disorder, very often misdiagnosed as ADHD in children as sleep deprivation wires them, etc). Congratulations on finding something that helps. It makes a huge difference to understand at least some of what is going on inside one, in my experience even when nothing can be done...though better when something can be done. Yeah, I have had it my whole life in retrospect. I only found out because my coping mechanisms were breaking down and I was trying to treat depression. I assumed everyone had that much “static” in their head and that I was just lazy because doing things required effort. Not because they were hard but because I resisted doing them. The depression vanished 30 minutes after the first dose and I do not think I have ever been able to think On the downside I am now on a drug only marginally chemically different from street meth and I have no idea if it will work as well once I get some tolerance. Still, it is nice to be happy again. Almost forgot what that was like. 4
Calm Posted June 7, 2019 Posted June 7, 2019 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: Yeah, I have had it my whole life in retrospect. I only found out because my coping mechanisms were breaking down and I was trying to treat depression. I assumed everyone had that much “static” in their head and that I was just lazy because doing things required effort. Not because they were hard but because I resisted doing them. The depression vanished 30 minutes after the first dose and I do not think I have ever been able to think On the downside I am now on a drug only marginally chemically different from street meth and I have no idea if it will work as well once I get some tolerance. Still, it is nice to be happy again. Almost forgot what that was like. I am so, so happy for you. And also get the downside. I just got done weaning off one drug that was barely working, but had developed all sorts of side effects...many I didn't realize until I got off it. However, that drug is very well known for causing issues and I managed 3 years on what is recommended only for 2 weeks. 2
The Nehor Posted June 7, 2019 Posted June 7, 2019 18 minutes ago, Calm said: I am so, so happy for you. And also get the downside. I just got done weaning off one drug that was barely working, but had developed all sorts of side effects...many I didn't realize until I got off it. However, that drug is very well known for causing issues and I managed 3 years on what is recommended only for 2 weeks. Yikes. I have felt some side effects but they are ones that should pass in a few weeks and are only marginally annoying (dry mouth) or helpful (appetite suppression and I am at the high end for my healthy weight). 1
Calm Posted June 7, 2019 Posted June 7, 2019 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: Yikes Yeah, I have a love/hate relationship with drugs, lol.
mfbukowski Posted June 8, 2019 Posted June 8, 2019 14 hours ago, changed said: Are you familiar with the scientific method, or the engineering method - you know, you collect data, multiple institutions perform the same experiments etc.? Authority does not come from a person, it comes from many different measurements taken by many different people - the more data, the more confident someone can be in the results. Yes let me see. Yes I think I have heard of the scientific method. What does this have to do with the discussion about religion? There is no scientific evidence for anything in religion. By definition. That is why religions are also called "Faiths".
changed Posted June 8, 2019 Author Posted June 8, 2019 8 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Yes let me see. Yes I think I have heard of the scientific method. What does this have to do with the discussion about religion? There is no scientific evidence for anything in religion. By definition. That is why religions are also called "Faiths". Faith is used for everything - not just religious beliefs - faith in banks, faith the sun will rise, faith in your spouse, faith in your own two feet. The scientific method works for religious beliefs as well -experiment on these words, and by the fruits ye will know etc. Experimentation and the scientific method is how we gain faith in anything. 1
MiserereNobis Posted June 8, 2019 Posted June 8, 2019 18 hours ago, pogi said: They can open your mind to a larger consciousness. I knew that Jerry Garcia was onto something! My first dead show was '93 while I was in high school. I've seen every iteration of the good ol' Grateful Dead since. Next shows: Dead and Company in Boulder in July. I miss Jerry... 2
MiserereNobis Posted June 8, 2019 Posted June 8, 2019 On 6/7/2019 at 7:54 AM, changed said: the more data, the more confident someone can be in the results. Mmm, but then there's that pesky problem of induction... 2
MiserereNobis Posted June 8, 2019 Posted June 8, 2019 2 hours ago, changed said: Faith is used for everything - not just religious beliefs - faith in banks, faith the sun will rise, faith in your spouse, faith in your own two feet. The scientific method works for religious beliefs as well -experiment on these words, and by the fruits ye will know etc. Experimentation and the scientific method is how we gain faith in anything. The scientific method works for things that science can investigate. It is scientism pure and simple to believe that science covers all of reality and experience. Science can tell me what's going on chemically and electrically in my brain when I listen to great music (like the Grateful Dead), but science cannot tell me what my experience is. Only I have that. Don't toss out the subjective experience and try to make everything scientifically objective. If you do, we'll end up in a flat wasteland void of interiority. 4
Maidservant Posted June 8, 2019 Posted June 8, 2019 On 6/5/2019 at 10:16 AM, changed said: I believe those who follow their conscience are then given the Spirit. While much of who we are is defined through our interactions with others, there is no borrowed light - no borrowed testimony - nothing that comes from any other human - we have to get there on our own, rather than relying on human "authority" figures. Baptism is our own faith, receiving the gift of the Sprint is our own ability to receive. Those in other faiths, other time periods - I believe a merciful and just God would not deny them the gift of the holy ghost for want of a "proper" authority figure to give that to them. I think many people - through the merits of their own faith and their own ability to receive - their own ability to follow the light of Christ - receive all within this world. Any other plan would not be loving, merciful, just, or in accordance with a loving God who is no respecter of persons. Oddly enough, I can't think of any discussion in the Book of Mormon that describes the reception of the Holy Ghost as a result of the laying on of hands by priesthood authority. But the Book is full of descriptions of the reception of the Holy Ghost, the manner thereof and the consequences thereof. I had remembered this scripture and wanted to share it with you as an agreement to the point of view you hold: "3 Nephi 9:20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not." So here 'the baptism of the Holy Ghost' is a result of a broken heart, a contrite spirit, faith, and conversion. It seems to be a pretty universal offering, for those who prepare in that manner. But when I went to look up that scripture, I found a ton of stuff I hadn't seen before because I had been blind to it because of our current tradition. The following places in the Book of Mormon you might enjoy re-reading on the subject: 2 Nephi 26:13 "And that he manifesteth himself unto all those who believe in him, by the power of the Holy Ghost; yea, unto every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, working mighty miracles, signs, and wonders, among the children of men according to their faith." Alma 13:12, Alma 36:34, Ether 12:14 (referencing this story I think, one of my favorites: Helaman 5:40-51), and all of 3 Nephi 19.
mfbukowski Posted June 8, 2019 Posted June 8, 2019 3 hours ago, changed said: Faith is used for everything - not just religious beliefs - faith in banks, faith the sun will rise, faith in your spouse, faith in your own two feet. The scientific method works for religious beliefs as well -experiment on these words, and by the fruits ye will know etc. Experimentation and the scientific method is how we gain faith in anything. In a way yes. But one cannot share experiments in matters of the heart. Your path is your path and no one else's. If that's what you meant earlier I apologize for missing it.
mfbukowski Posted June 8, 2019 Posted June 8, 2019 1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said: The scientific method works for things that science can investigate. It is scientism pure and simple to believe that science covers all of reality and experience. Science can tell me what's going on chemically and electrically in my brain when I listen to great music (like the Grateful Dead), but science cannot tell me what my experience is. Only I have that. Don't toss out the subjective experience and try to make everything scientifically objective. If you do, we'll end up in a flat wasteland void of interiority. I agree I am still trying to decide what side of the fence she was on that question Subjective experiments give subjective answers but yes the method still works.
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