The Copycat Phenomenon

[Calm]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

 But I do think that we need to be careful because the article clearly says that there is no way to prove that the spite was the cause of the show.  

I agree.  Otoh, I think it is very important for media to err on the side of caution in portrayals based on long standing and multiple studies research....which it appears didn't happen here.

There is a lot of research out there supporting the impact of media.

Quote

The second study, A Critical Review, Suicide and the Entertainment Media, identified 54 studies on suicide portrayals in film and television, music and plays to assess if there is a causal link between entertainment media portrayals of suicide and actual suicidal behaviours and thoughts. More than half of the studies identified suggested evidence of a harmful imitation effect of suicide portrayals in this form of media.

https://mindframe.org.au/suicide/evidence-research

[MustardSeed]

20 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I really admired people who liked shows, or who could like shows, like that. Me, well, I just couldn't get myself in that place. Not that there's anything wrong with those shows (it's me). I'm thinking of something a bit grittier yet still wholesome.

My brain hurts with all the violence and aggression today.  

But why do I still love Breaking Bad? 

 

[3DOP]

1 hour ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

"I would rather have you come home in a coffin than without your virtue." 

Having been sent home a few months early from my mission, I can tell you that Romney's words contribute to some very concrete thoughts regarding suicide.  Thoughts -- that now as someone with a family of my own -- I am very glad I did not act on.

"Coming home in a coffin" is equated with self murder? Surely your apostle meant that it would be best to come alive with honor. Next best to come home dead with honor. Next best to come alive with dishonor. Worst...to come home dead with dishonor. Sounds good to me. That can't mean that he preferred that people who make mistakes against virtue commit suicide. I can't see that his words were even slightly advocating suicide. He was only magnifying, and rightly, the value of keeping one's virtue. 

[USU78]

46 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Too super-heroish, although the complicated mulit-verses is a great metaphor for all the "choices" thrown at youth. Maybe a sci-fi of sorts where his shvintukh future-self coaches him in the ways.

I first encountered Peter in the early sixties. No wibblywobbly timeywimey in those days.

[USU78]

19 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

"Coming home in a coffin" is equated with self murder? Surely your apostle meant that it would be best to come alive with honor. Next best to come home dead with honor. Next best to come alive with dishonor. Worst...to come home dead with dishonor. Sounds good to me. That can't mean that he preferred that people who make mistakes against virtue commit suicide. I can't see that his words were even slightly advocating suicide. He was only magnifying, and rightly, the value of keeping one's virtue. 

Bingo.

[USU78]

37 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

Please explain to me how an individual personal experience can be wrong.  Serious question. Forget my personal example.  Let's talk in the abstract. 

Person A said XYZ

Person B said XYZ influenced the experience of ABC.

Given that Person B is the ultimate authority on the experience of ABC - as he/she is the only one to have directly experienced ABC - how can they be wrong?  This is entirely subjective, no?

Influence =\= causation.

[Calm]

38 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

"Coming home in a coffin" is equated with self murder? Surely your apostle meant that it would be best to come alive with honor. Next best to come home dead with honor. Next best to come alive with dishonor. Worst...to come home dead with dishonor. Sounds good to me. That can't mean that he preferred that people who make mistakes against virtue commit suicide. I can't see that his words were even slightly advocating suicide. He was only magnifying, and rightly, the value of keeping one's virtue. 

Suicide is not considered an honorable choice in our faith, it is viewed Imo as a sin unless there is significant mental illness (these days it is pretty much always assumed there is which to me is the wise and charitable position***).  He can't be therefore encouraging suicide, but rather resisting  unto death....something along the lines probably of having a gun to one's head and still proclaiming the Gospel I am guessing along with resisting sin...but there was never from what I have seen a belief that someone might be destined to commit a significant sin so they should die before they do.  Hopefully he did not mean rape victims who survived were dishonored, though culture in the past treated them as such too often.

It was not a well worded 'encouragement' imo, though encouraging someone to live one's life with honor (which of necessity means dying with honor) is a good thing.  It is too absolute and doesn't express the option of restoring honor with repentance and the Atonement.

***https://www.lds.org/topics/suicide?lang=eng

Quote

Although it is wrong to take one’s own life, a person who does so may not be responsible for his or her actions. Only God can fully understand and judge the situation. Elder M. Russell Ballard said:

“Obviously, we do not know the full circumstances surrounding every suicide. Only the Lord knows all the details, and he it is who will judge our actions here on earth.

“When he does judge us, I feel he will take all things into consideration: our genetic and chemical makeup, our mental state, our intellectual capacity, the teachings we have received, the traditions of our fathers, our health, and so forth” (“Suicide: Some Things We Know, and Some We Do Not,” Ensign, Oct. 1987, 8).

 

Edited May 1, 2019 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

“Release of ‘13 Reasons Why’ Associated with Increase in Youth Suicide Rates,” NIMH New Release, April 29, 2019, online at https://www.nimh.nih.gov/news/science-news/2019/release-of-13-reasons-why-associated-with-increase-in-youth-suicide-rates.shtml ,

Quote

NIH-supported study highlights the importance of responsible portrayal of suicide by the media.

Suicidal thoughts or actions (even in very young children) are a sign of extreme distress and should not be ignored.

If you or someone you know needs immediate help, call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-TALK (8255) or Crisis Text Line: text “home” to 741 741.

The copy-cat trigger is real and profound in all aspects of mammalian life.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Robert F. Smith

[CV75]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

My brain hurts with all the violence and aggression today.  

But why do I still love Breaking Bad? 

I can't watch that stuff. I meant the delicate balance of gritty without graphicality. Like the old Hercules peplum. Well, maybe better than that.

Edited May 1, 2019 by CV75

[CV75]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

I first encountered Peter in the early sixties. No wibblywobbly timeywimey in those days.

I was a Superman/Batman guy. Beyond that it got way too complicated and too many to keep track of. And expensive:15 cents is OK, but then 25 cents a comic book! My buddies started getting into into Marvel. Forget that! But Peter would be a good kind of personality for the genre I'm thinking of.

My father bought us Classics Illustrated so I had to read those.

Edited May 1, 2019 by CV75

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

Please explain to me how an individual personal experience can be wrong.  Serious question. Forget my personal example.  Let's talk in the abstract. 

Person A said XYZ

Person B said XYZ influenced the experience of ABC.

Given that Person B is the ultimate authority on the experience of ABC - as he/she is the only one to have directly experienced ABC - how can they be wrong?  This is entirely subjective, no?

I said it was ridiculous to say he was encouraging suicide. Your experience is authentic or whatever and you may take the quote and run to that conclusion but that is not his fault. He said serious sin is worse then death. That is often true. Serious sin and death is worse then either of them individually.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

My brain hurts with all the violence and aggression today.  

But why do I still love Breaking Bad? 

 

I enjoyed it because it ended as it should. With everyone involved in the crimes dead or broken.

[MustardSeed]

39 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I enjoyed it because it ended as it should. With everyone involved in the crimes dead or broken.

I just appreciate excellent acting.  I have low tolerance for bad acting.  

Little house was the only tv show I could get on my bunny ears black and white twelve inch tv my folks finally bought in 1984.  I watched every episode 3 times and it taught me how to be honest and good,  and to love a man with dark hair. 

[blueglass]

"When you meet someone, treat them as if they were in serious trouble, and you will be right more than half the time.”

Pres Eyring's district president 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2004/04/in-the-strength-of-the-lord?lang=eng

[6EQUJ5]

5 hours ago, 3DOP said:

"Coming home in a coffin" is equated with self murder? Surely your apostle meant that it would be best to come alive with honor. Next best to come home dead with honor. Next best to come alive with dishonor. Worst...to come home dead with dishonor. Sounds good to me. That can't mean that he preferred that people who make mistakes against virtue commit suicide. I can't see that his words were even slightly advocating suicide. He was only magnifying, and rightly, the value of keeping one's virtue. 

You are his son.  You commit a serious sin and face the consequence of coming home without honor to your family.  The last thing he hold you before letting you go is that he's rather you be dead come home without virtue.  He's made it clear that he's rather have a dead son, than an unchaste one.

[MustardSeed]

11 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

You are his son.  You commit a serious sin and face the consequence of coming home without honor to your family.  The last thing he hold you before letting you go is that he's rather you be dead come home without virtue.  He's made it clear that he's rather have a dead son, than an unchaste one.

I feel sad for any young person who experienced this. 

I was given a very clear message that I would always be loved no matter what. Nothing President Romney ever said made it to my ears.

I felt guilty enough just getting a B- once.  I can’t imagine coming home early under those circumstances. I’m sure if you had children , that you are doing it differently.  

[Wade Englund]

1 hour ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

You are his son.  You commit a serious sin and face the consequence of coming home without honor to your family.  The last thing he hold you before letting you go is that he's rather you be dead come home without virtue.  He's made it clear that he's rather have a dead son, than an unchaste one.

Hyperbole, even from the mortal Christ (Mt. 18:6)  can easily be lost on some people, particularly if they may be inclined to deflect and/or make others an offender for a word.

I, along with many of my family and friends came of age in the wake of the Romney comment, and not a single one of us failed to grasp the gist of what Romney was suggesting, and in no way considered it as suggesting suicide.

This doesn't mean that his comments couldn't be wildly misunderstood. Clearly, your personal experience is a testament that it very much could be.

However, if you are looking to find fault, everyone would be best served were you to consider the wild misunderstanding. Taking personal responsibility for making poor choices that led to you coming home early, and taking personal responsibility for wildly misunderstanding well-intended advice as a cause for contemplating suicide, would be beneficial not only to yourself, but would model healthy behavior for your children.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[6EQUJ5]

7 hours ago, Wade Englund said:

Hyperbole, even from the mortal Christ (Mt. 18:6)  can easily be lost on some people, particularly if they may be inclined to deflect and/or make others an offender for a word.

I, along with many of my family and friends came of age in the wake of the Romney comment, and not a single one of us failed to grasp the gist of what Romney was suggesting, and in no way considered it as suggesting suicide.

This doesn't mean that his comments couldn't be wildly misunderstood. Clearly, your personal experience is a testament that it very much could be.

However, if you are looking to find fault, everyone would be best served were you to consider the wild misunderstanding. Taking personal responsibility for making poor choices that led to you coming home early, and taking personal responsibility for wildly misunderstanding well-intended advice as a cause for contemplating suicide, would be beneficial not only to yourself, but would model healthy behavior for your children.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I am so surprised to see Wade Englund show a slavish devotion to mortal men in order to excuse their evil words.

Wade -- I  truly am sorry that as a believing and faithful member of the Church you have not been allowed to live your authentic life.  You are free to be who you are. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by 6EQUJ5

[MustardSeed]

My best friends son was sent home early.  When she went to the mtc to pick him up, Elder packer was walking in the door as they were walking out. 

Elder Packer looked at him , scowled and shook his head.  “Not again”, he muttered. And he passed by. 

I think my friends son did take personal responsibility else he would not have gone home.  But the shame was palpable.  It would take a lot of love to get back.  

I’m not sure anyone trying to find their way back is going to get that love stuff here on this site. 

In case anyone is looking for it. 

[6EQUJ5]

26 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

My best friends son was sent home early.  When she went to the mtc to pick him up, Elder packer was walking in the door as they were walking out. 

Elder Packer looked at him , scowled and shook his head.  “Not again”, he muttered. And he passed by. 

I think my friends son did take personal responsibility else he would not have gone home.  But the shame was palpable.  It would take a lot of love to get back.  

I’m not sure anyone trying to find their way back is going to get that love stuff here on this site. 

In case anyone is looking for it. 

Both Elder Romney and Elder Packer were evil men who said evil things. The Church should disavow them and their words.

This doesn't make the Gospel any less true.  But we should be honest with ourselves and realize the pain inflicted on young, faithful and beliving members who were trying to be good and honorable .

 

Edited May 1, 2019 by 6EQUJ5

[MustardSeed]

4 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

Elder Romney and Elder Packer were evil men who said evil things. The Church should disavow them and their words

I don’t know that these men were more evil than I am. 

Neither of us are perfect. The atonement is for all, and all need it. 

[6EQUJ5]

2 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I don’t know that these men were more evil than I am. 

Neither of us are perfect. The atonement is for all, and all need it. 

Even evil men are saved by the Atonement as we all are.  And as you point out, we are all evil.  But it doesn't change the fact that these evil men caused unnecessary pain for many young Latter-day Saints.

And, of course, neither you or me claim to be prophets.

 

[MustardSeed]

Well there is a loving inviting way and a punitive way to deliver a message.  

As demonstrated in this site quite regularly. 

 

[The Nehor]

45 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

Both Elder Romney and Elder Packer were evil men who said evil things. The Church should disavow them and their words.

This doesn't make the Gospel any less true.  But we should be honest with ourselves and realize the pain inflicted on young, faithful and beliving members who were trying to be good and honorable .

 

I disrespectfully disagree.

[The Nehor]

35 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Well there is a loving inviting way and a punitive way to deliver a message.  

As demonstrated in this site quite regularly. 

 

And sometimes the more punitive one is the correct one. Look at the harshness in many of the words of the Savior that were so strong that even the apostles spoke out on it. The words of Abinadi were not loving. Jacob at length said how disgusted he was that he had to deliver his sermon on greed and sexual depravity and, while he may have loved the people, said that they were going to hell for their practices if they did not repent.