The Copycat Phenomenon

[MustardSeed]

14 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

And sometimes the more punitive one is the correct one. Look at the harshness in many of the words of the Savior that were so strong that even the apostles spoke out on it. The words of Abinadi were not loving. Jacob at length said how disgusted he was that he had to deliver his sermon on greed and sexual depravity and, while he may have loved the people, said that they were going to hell for their practices if they did not repent.

This is a good message. Balance in all things. 

I think direct messages can be given and received most effectively when trust is established and the receiver knows they are loved regardless. That is my opinion.

[6EQUJ5]

53 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Look at the harshness in many of the words of the Savior that were so strong that even the apostles spoke out on it.

I guess I have a different version of the NT.  I can't find any passages where Jesus says death preferable to sinning.

As I recall, he said "go and sin no more."  Not: "you are better off dead if you sin."

Edited May 1, 2019 by 6EQUJ5

[The Nehor]

27 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

I guess I have a different version of the NT.  I can't find any passages where Jesus says death preferable to sinning.

As I recall, he said "go and sin no more."  Not: "you are better off dead if you sin."

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

I guess I have a different version of the NT.  I can't find any passages where Jesus says death preferable to sinning.

As I recall, he said "go and sin no more."  Not: "you are better off dead if you sin."

He does teach that it's better to cut off a hand, foot, or cut out an eye, than to use it to commit sin.  

I think we can all agree that there are instances where death is better than sin.  Think of the young man who committed the shooting at the synagogue in California a couple of days ago.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if his parents wished he had been killed in a car accident a year ago than live to commit the atrocity that he has committed.  It wouldn't make them evil if they did.  There are some things that all parents would rather their children never live to become.

Having said that, I've never liked teaching people that it's better to die than to lose your virtue or whatever.  I think it's way too easy for satan to use that teaching against us.  Typically people who have fallen into sin are already fragile and susceptible to illogical thoughts.  Besides that, I think we seriously undermine the reality of repentance and forgiveness when we teach that death is better than sin.  Those times when death would be better, are, in my opinion, so incredibly extreme that they won't apply to 99.9% of us. 

And lastly, does God save someone because they never had the chance to commit a sin they would have otherwise committed given the chance?  Is a man honest just because he's never had the chance to steal?  That doesn't seem logical to me but maybe I'm not looking at it from the right perspective.  

 

[6EQUJ5]

31 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think we can all agree that there are instances where death is better than sin. 

With all due respect, no.  I don't think we can all agree there are instances where death is better than sin.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

With all due respect, no.  I don't think we can all agree there are instances where death is better than sin.

Is it better to die or commit murder? Better to die then to rape a child? Better to die then destroy your own family through adultery?

When do you think you should dust off the old millstone and throw yourself into the sea?

[USU78]

The principal issue is getting short shrift here at the expense of beating up a man 30+ years dead.  The principal issue is:

The moral/ethical vacuity of those in news media/entertainment media/blogosphere/vlogosphere who, in seeking clicks and/or viewership and/or advancement of a sociopolitical or socioreligious agenda, put suicide of at-risk youth "out there" so that it is not only thinkable, but justifiable.

[bluebell]

14 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Is it better to die or commit murder? Better to die then to rape a child? Better to die then destroy your own family through adultery?

 

This was my point.  I would rather my child die than become something unredeemable, something that chooses to spread carnage on innocent people.  6EQU obviously disagrees (i'm not sure he's a parent but I'm assuming he is) but I don't believe I am unique in that.

[MustardSeed]

Well in the 70s I’d have rather died than be guilty of “heavy petting” which imo is pretty messed up 

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Well in the 70s I’d have rather died than be guilty of “heavy petting” which imo is pretty messed up 

I agree, it is.  I remember thinking the same thing about drinking beer when I was in high school.  I think it's a great example of why teachings like Romney's and Kimball's should never be taught, especially not to young people.  You just can't teach that kind of stuff to people who's brains aren't even close to being fully developed yet.   

[MustardSeed]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

I agree, it is.  I remember thinking the same thing about drinking beer when I was in high school.  I think it's a great example of why teachings like Romney's and Kimball's should never be taught, especially not to young people.  You just can't teach that kind of stuff to people who's brains aren't even close to being fully developed yet.   

Standing ovation from me 

[Wade Englund]

6 hours ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

I am so surprised to see Wade Englund show a slavish devotion to mortal men in order to excuse their evil words.

Wade -- I  truly am sorry that as a believing and faithful member of the Church you have not been allowed to live your authentic life.  You are free to be who you are. 

That is an understandable response given the upside-down culture we now live in.

Emotively virtue signal to your hearts content. I am immune to bogus guilt trips, but perhaps you will feel better for it nevertheless.

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

[USU78]

29 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I agree, it is.  I remember thinking the same thing about drinking beer when I was in high school.  I think it's a great example of why teachings like Romney's and Kimball's should never be taught, especially not to young people.  You just can't teach that kind of stuff to people who's brains aren't even close to being fully developed yet.   

On the other hand:

My father was a high school football coach.  His all-state tackle and team co-captain broke clear on a punt, but was too late to block it.  He cleaned the clock of the punter anyway.  It was a bad roughing, and my father benched his best player the rest of the game.  I, a hyperskinny 9th grader, was running stats on the sidelines, so I was very close to the action and saw/heard everything.

The boy's father came to mine right after the game and started hollering at him about benching his boy.  My father replied, "You're making an emotional cripple of him."

Brought up short, the boy's father apologized, then said he'd have a talk with his boy.

Next day, the all-state tackle asked for a moment at the beginning of practice, at which time he apologized to the coaches and the team, begging their forgiveness.

Why do I bring this up?  The words of my father out of context sound cruel.  But are they cruel?  Are they not rather kind?

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, USU78 said:

On the other hand:

My father was a high school football coach.  His all-state tackle and team co-captain broke clear on a punt, but was too late to block it.  He cleaned the clock of the punter anyway.  It was a bad roughing, and my father benched his best player the rest of the game.  I, a hyperskinny 9th grader, was running stats on the sidelines, so I was very close to the action and saw/heard everything.

The boy's father came to mine right after the game and started hollering at him about benching his boy.  My father replied, "You're making an emotional cripple of him."

Brought up short, the boy's father apologized, then said he'd have a talk with his boy.

Next day, the all-state tackle asked for a moment at the beginning of practice, at which time he apologized to the coaches and the team, begging their forgiveness.

Why do I bring this up?  The words of my father out of context sound cruel.  But are they cruel?  Are they not rather kind?

I agree, context matters.  In my opinion, part of the problem with those teachings is probably that they are presented as blanket teachings, with no real context.  

[USU78]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

I agree, context matters.  In my opinion, part of the problem with those teachings is probably that they are presented as blanket teachings, with no real context.  

17-year olds admittedly aren't fully brainformed and their behavior is understandably as scattered as their partially-formed brains.  This doesn't mean they're incapable of learning.  And when a young person's blood is up, sometimes you have to use pointed language, or maybe shake their heads by their facemasks, to gain access to their scattered attention.

The Spartan mother, seeking to teach Spartan virtues, as she should, and as Anti-Nephi-Lehite mothers did, tells her boy that being brought back from battle honorably dead, being carried on his shield was preferable at that time, among those people, and in that context than being demonstrated a coward who would abandon his gear and run away from his comrades.  We used to use war and battle metaphors to describe our struggles in life and with faith far more often than we do now.  Why?  Because such metaphors were useful to teach desired traits.  A lot of our hymns speak in these same metaphors.

The people who claim the recordation of such metaphors' employment during conference talks in the 1960s or thereabouts was damaging quite misses the point:  these leaders were partakers of the material culture in which they lived, and the speaker, Romney, had survived a world shattered by two world wars and two major, long-term foreign conflicts.  Strong, martial language and Spartan metaphors were common.  But they're out of fashion just now and not many people use them.  Are the same people triggered by "We Are All Enlisted" or "Onward Christian Soldiers?"  I daresay not.   

Indeed, I suspect the guilt and self-loathing and suicidal ideation preceded the connection with "Return With Honor," rather than flowed from it.  In any case, isn't it true that the vast majority of suicidal thoughts are occasioned by a desire for pain to cease, rather than life?

[The Nehor]

16 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I agree, context matters.  In my opinion, part of the problem with those teachings is probably that they are presented as blanket teachings, with no real context.  

I am not sure that is their fault. These teachings are often quoted as Cliff’s Notes from talks, many of which also mention the power of repentance for those who have sinned.

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, USU78 said:

And when a young person's blood is up, sometimes you have to use pointed language, or maybe shake their heads by their facemasks, to gain access to their scattered attention.

Which is probably why if such language is ever used, it is best used on a one to one basis where such things can be judged and not in a general setting where who may hear is not even known. It may be appropriate from parent to child, but not imo from the pulpit. 

I include those who repeat them for negative reasons as inappropriate use. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by Calm

[USU78]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

I include those who repeat them for negative reasons as inappropriate use. 

Isn't that about the only time we hear them any more?

[bluebell]

26 minutes ago, USU78 said:

17-year olds admittedly aren't fully brainformed and their behavior is understandably as scattered as their partially-formed brains.  This doesn't mean they're incapable of learning.  And when a young person's blood is up, sometimes you have to use pointed language, or maybe shake their heads by their facemasks, to gain access to their scattered attention.

The Spartan mother, seeking to teach Spartan virtues, as she should, and as Anti-Nephi-Lehite mothers did, tells her boy that being brought back from battle honorably dead, being carried on his shield was preferable at that time, among those people, and in that context than being demonstrated a coward who would abandon his gear and run away from his comrades.  We used to use war and battle metaphors to describe our struggles in life and with faith far more often than we do now.  Why?  Because such metaphors were useful to teach desired traits.  A lot of our hymns speak in these same metaphors.

The people who claim the recordation of such metaphors' employment during conference talks in the 1960s or thereabouts was damaging quite misses the point:  these leaders were partakers of the material culture in which they lived, and the speaker, Romney, had survived a world shattered by two world wars and two major, long-term foreign conflicts.  Strong, martial language and Spartan metaphors were common.  But they're out of fashion just now and not many people use them.  Are the same people triggered by "We Are All Enlisted" or "Onward Christian Soldiers?"  I daresay not.   

Indeed, I suspect the guilt and self-loathing and suicidal ideation preceded the connection with "Return With Honor," rather than flowed from it.  In any case, isn't it true that the vast majority of suicidal thoughts are occasioned by a desire for pain to cease, rather than life?

I agree with a lot of what you say.  It doesn't really change my point though.

And Sparta was not a great place, where boys were systematically beaten and raped beginning at the age of 7-8 to initiate them into their battle groups, and where women had to have their heads shaved upon marriage so that they looked more manly and their husbands would be more attracted to them.  The phrase, 'with your shield or on it' sounds good and is very poetic, but I shudder to use Sparta as any kind of a role model we would want to emulate.

[Wade Englund]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

On the other hand:

My father was a high school football coach.  His all-state tackle and team co-captain broke clear on a punt, but was too late to block it.  He cleaned the clock of the punter anyway.  It was a bad roughing, and my father benched his best player the rest of the game.  I, a hyperskinny 9th grader, was running stats on the sidelines, so I was very close to the action and saw/heard everything.

The boy's father came to mine right after the game and started hollering at him about benching his boy.  My father replied, "You're making an emotional cripple of him."

Brought up short, the boy's father apologized, then said he'd have a talk with his boy.

Next day, the all-state tackle asked for a moment at the beginning of practice, at which time he apologized to the coaches and the team, begging their forgiveness.

Why do I bring this up?  The words of my father out of context sound cruel.  But are they cruel?  Are they not rather kind?

Great story.

However, it isn't just about context, it is also about the nature of the audience.. The warmth of the sun can be a blessing to a blooming sapling, but a curse to snowflakes.

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

Edited May 1, 2019 by Wade Englund

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Well in the 70s I’d have rather died than be guilty of “heavy petting” which imo is pretty messed up 

Indeed, think of all the puppies and kittens starved for human affection.