Time is running out

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I've never heard the one about the church headquarters being moved to Missouri.  Can you share the reference?

I think we're probably all ready there in terms of having the gospel preached to every part of the world, thanks the internet.  I would be very surprised if we also didn't already have congregations all over the world.

I haven’t heard it expressed in those terms precisely, but I believe it has long been taught in the Church that the area in and around present-day Independence, Mo., will be the center stake (or, perhaps, stakes) of Zion, that a great temple will be built there, that the location will be one of two centers from which Christ will reign personally upon the earth, the other being Jerusalem in the Holy Land.

Adam-Ondi-Ahman, located near Independence, is the location where Adam will meet with all the righteous of his posterity, one of the events attendant to the Second Coming. 

Edited to add: Here’s a pretty good article on the subject from Encyclopedia of Mormonism: https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/New_Jerusalem

Edited April 16, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I've never heard the one about the church headquarters being moved to Missouri.  Can you share the reference?

I think we're probably all ready there in terms of having the gospel preached to every part of the world, thanks the internet.  I would be very surprised if we also didn't already have congregations all over the world.

Here is a link to a dynamic map showing the growth of the Church by stake from the 1830s to the present day. 

Its pretty impressive and fascinating, but in the end there are still huge geographical expanses where no stakes have been organized, especially in Eastern Europe and Asia.

True, the absence of a stake does not necessarily indicate no congregations, but I would think the larger the area without stakes the greater the likelihood that Church membership is thin to non-existent in that area.

I think we have some work to do before there are “congregations all over the world.”

Link: 

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

True, the absence of a stake does not necessarily indicate no congregations, but I would think the larger the area without stakes the greater the likelihood that Church membership is thin to non-existent in that area.

I think we have some work to do before there are “congregations all over the world.”

I live in a nation that has multiple stakes. But the truth is that they are nearly all located in just a handful of very large cities. As soon as one moves into a mid-size city (of which we have hundreds), the Church has almost no presence. And smaller cities and country towns are virtually untouched. When a branch does exist in such places, it might cover a huge area including many dozens of cities/towns. We currently have one branch in our stake, and it takes me three hours to drive to the branch chapel. The entire drive lies inside the boundaries of one ward and the branch. Almost no one along the travel route would even have a clue that we rent out space for a congregation in one of the regional town centres. We are overwhelmingly untouched.

Edited April 17, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[bluebell]

25 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Here is a link to a dynamic map showing the growth of the Church by stake from the 1830s to the present day. 

Its pretty impressive and fascinating, but in the end there are still huge geographical expanses where no stakes have been organized, especially in Eastern Europe and Asia.

True, the absence of a stake does not necessarily indicate no congregations, but I would think the larger the area without stakes the greater the likelihood that Church membership is thin to non-existent in that area.

I think we have some work to do before there are “congregations all over the world.”

Link: 

 

As far as I can tell it seems like we have congregations in almost every country on earth.  I think there are just a few middle eastern countries where we don’t. 

I know Syria used to have a congregation but doesn’t anymore. 

[Scott Lloyd]

10 hours ago, bluebell said:

As far as I can tell it seems like we have congregations in almost every country on earth.  I think there are just a few middle eastern countries where we don’t. 

I know Syria used to have a congregation but doesn’t anymore. 

This link on the Church's website says "members of the Church are found in more than 160 countries and territories." I don't know how many countries there are in toto, but I suppose one could do the math.

The link has a map indicating 500 or fewer members in most of the countries of Africa and in China and much of Eurasia. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

This link on the Church's website says "members of the Church are found in more than 160 countries and territories." I don't know how many countries there are in toto, but I suppose one could do the math.

The link has a map indicating 500 or fewer members in most of the countries of Africa and in China and much of Eurasia. 

When we have wards in Greenland, it will be time for the second coming

[Nacho2dope]

13 hours ago, bluebell said:

As far as I can tell it seems like we have congregations in almost every country on earth.  I think there are just a few middle eastern countries where we don’t. 

I know Syria used to have a congregation but doesn’t anymore. 

So has the Gospel been preached to all the world? 

[bluebell]

46 minutes ago, Nacho2dope said:

So has the Gospel been preached to all the world? 

It really depends on how someone interprets that prophecy.  Does it mean that every single person has had the chance to hear about the gospel?  Does it mean that missionaries are serving in every country?  Does it mean that every person has access to the internet?  Does it mean that every country has access to the internet?

None of those things have happened yet, but some are closer to being fulfilled (and more likely in my opinion) than others.

[Scott Lloyd]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

It really depends on how someone interprets that prophecy.  Does it mean that every single person has had the chance to hear about the gospel?  Does it mean that missionaries are serving in every country?  Does it mean that every person has access to the internet?  Does it mean that every country has access to the internet?

None of those things have happened yet, but some are closer to being fulfilled (and more likely in my opinion) than others.

To those of us who grew up in the pre-internet age, the emergence and dramatic rise of the internet illustrates how feasibly a prophecy like “the gospel will be preached in all the world” can be fulfilled and fulfilled rapidly. 

[Scott Lloyd]

On 4/11/2019 at 9:34 AM, the narrator said:

I didn't because it's irrelevant to my point of how Joseph believed in the early 1830s that the violence preceding the second coming was immanent and that the Zion in Missouri would be one of the only places where a person could gain protection from the violence.

Also, I completely disagree with my distant cousins's assessment of its fulfillment. The violence did not spread out in the way and time that the revelation indicates, the slaves did not revolt as it predicted (I've heard some apologists claiming it was actually referring to "slaves of communism" revolting during the Cold War), and refuge from the world wars was not found in a city in Missouri.

I think you are applying a too limited interpretation to the phrasing about the slaves rising up against their masters, thinking it must necessarily mean armed revolt. 

It is a fact that in the Civil War, former slaves enlisted on the Union side of the conflict against the Confederacy, which championed slavery. In effect, they did in this way rise up against their masters.

But even more striking than that, it was during the Civil War that President Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation, in effect giving slaves the legal right to throw off domination by the slave owners and thus to rise up and declare themselves no longer in bondage. 

And while I personally would not readily apply the prophecy to the Cold War and Communism, that is not an unreasonable interpretation. 

I don’t think you can state with certainty what Joseph concluded in his mind about the application of the prophecy. He was a prophet accustomed to receiving divine revelation.  He had experienced a theophany; he had interacted with heavenly messengers, including resurrected ancient prophets and apostles. He had translated ancient writings “by the gift and power of God.” Surely he knew how to distinguish true from false revelation. After the resolution of the nullification crisis, if he believed he had been misled with the prophecy on war, I should think he would have destroyed any record of the prophecy instead of preserving it against a future time when it would indeed be fulfilled. 

So no, I can’t concede that Joseph believed the nullification crisis was the only possible application of the revelation he had received. 

[Tacenda]

17 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

To those of us who grew up in the pre-internet age, the emergence and dramatic rise of the internet illustrates how feasibly a prophecy like “the gospel will be preached in all the world” can be fulfilled and fulfilled rapidly. 

The internet also brings a whole boat load of problems with having the warts or non heard of info about the church in an instant to those out there unaware. Or even to those that are non LDS that had a missionary visit them and they look up the church on the internet and change their mind on ever inviting the missionaries back again. 

So in my non TBM mindset, what if, and a big "what if", God is trying to thwart people from joining or get people to know the whole truth of the matter, if the LDS isn't the only true church. 

I say this because I grew up having been told that the church will grow because of all of the inventions out there. But when I really think about it, these new technologies can have the reverse affect as well. 

Also, I posted this spreadsheet on the April Conference Hype thread but will post it here. It looks like the numbers are not showing the widespread growth that has been predicted by leaders in the past. 

I blame it on the internet pretty much. https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=7206285C99C2C561!8657&ithint=file%2cxlsx&authkey=!ADh3kgMTx9tTKrA

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

The internet also brings a whole boat load of problems with having the warts or non heard of info about the church in an instant to those out there unaware. Or even to those that are non LDS that had a missionary visit them and they look up the church on the internet and change their mind on ever inviting the missionaries back again. 

So in my non TBM mindset, what if, and a big "what if", God is trying to thwart people from joining or get people to know the whole truth of the matter, if the LDS isn't the only true church. 

I say this because I grew up having been told that the church will grow because of all of the inventions out there. But when I really think about it, these new technologies can have the reverse affect as well. 

Also, I posted this spreadsheet on the April Conference Hype thread but will post it here. It looks like the numbers are not showing the widespread growth that has been predicted by leaders in the past. 

I blame it on the internet pretty much. https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=7206285C99C2C561!8657&ithint=file%2cxlsx&authkey=!ADh3kgMTx9tTKrA

I don’t know specifically which leaders you are referring to or what specifically they said that caused you to conclude they were predicting “widespread growth” or what you understand that phrase to mean. 

But regarding this matter, it is instructive to go back to what Nephi beheld in his vision as recounted in 2 Nephi, that the church of the Lamb of God in the last days would be “over all the face of the earth” but that it’s numbers would be few, hindered in their growth by the influence of Satan and his followers (metaphorically referred to as the church of the devil). That’s precisely what I see today: The Church has global presence and influence, but it’s numbers are relatively few, this because of resistance from competing ideas and worldly influences abroad in the earth. 

I know of no prophecy of the scriptures or from latter-day Church leaders that foretells numerical dominance of Latter-day Saints in the world at any time prior to the Second Coming of Christ. Do you? Can you cite any? 

I know there have been numerous applications of Daniel’s interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream about the stone cut out of the mountain without hands as referring to the growth of the Kingdom of God on the earth. But I understand that this is to have its fulfillment after the Second Coming of Christ, not before. 

Finally, in regard to the internet, it does not surprise me in the least that technological advancements given to us by God to further the work of the kingdom would be commandeered by the adversary to use for his own nefarious purposes. That has always happened for as long as there have been technological advancements, and it will continue to happen until the day Satan is bound. It just means we have to step up our game, confident in the knowledge that the victory will ultimately go to Christ and His people. 

Let us all press on in the work of the Lord

That when life is o’er we may gain the reward. 

In the fight for right let us wield the sword 

In the glorious cause of truth. 

Fear not, though the enemy deride. 

Courage, for the Lord is on our side. 

We will heed not what the wicked may say,

But the Lord alone we will obey. 

Edited April 18, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Duncan]

On 4/17/2019 at 8:27 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

This link on the Church's website says "members of the Church are found in more than 160 countries and territories." I don't know how many countries there are in toto, but I suppose one could do the math.

The link has a map indicating 500 or fewer members in most of the countries of Africa and in China and much of Eurasia. 

Just as a side note, Lima Peru has 46 Stakes, Canada has 48 😶

[Teancum]

On 4/10/2019 at 7:15 PM, carbon dioxide said:

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez  says we have about 12 years left.  It will not be only religious people that will be proclaiming the end is nigh. The left is beating the drums louder and louder.

Apple and oranges.