I'm beginning to have a tithing problem, only not in the traditional sense

[LoudmouthMormon]

On 4/8/2019 at 7:36 AM, Vedrfolnyr said:

I have never had a problem paying tithing. Until I my bro-in-law who works for church security began bragging about the new security training facility that the church is building complete with 12 rifle and 12 handgun ranges and "force-on-force" training areas. 

First I was all excited.  Then it dawned on me that I'm hearing this from some anonymous person who heard it from a brother-in-law, and such things tend to be unreliable.  Then I googled, and got excited again.  Then I found out it's two firing ranges total, and now I'm just plain old "whatever".

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/04/02/lds-church-planning-new/

 

[Stargazer]

23 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

First I was all excited.  Then it dawned on me that I'm hearing this from some anonymous person who heard it from a brother-in-law, and such things tend to be unreliable.  Then I googled, and got excited again.  Then I found out it's two firing ranges total, and now I'm just plain old "whatever".

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/04/02/lds-church-planning-new/

 

Actually, one of my worries was that the Church was being all Pollyanna about the dangers out there, especially in this increasingly dangerous world.  This firing range and associated training has made me feel much better.

[Kenngo1969]

On 4/8/2019 at 7:36 AM, Vedrfolnyr said:

I have never had a problem paying tithing. Until I my bro-in-law who works for church security began bragging about the new security training facility that the church is building complete with 12 rifle and 12 handgun ranges and "force-on-force" training areas. For some reason this absolutely infuriated me. I am not allowed to carry a firearm into church to protect my family but the leaders security gets a state-of-the-art training facility? My daughter would love to take gymnastics but our finances didn't allow it. Until last week when I felt that my daughters happiness means more to me than an LDS firearms academy.

 

9 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Actually, one of my worries was that the Church was being all Pollyanna about the dangers out there, especially in this increasingly dangerous world.  This firing range and associated training has made me feel much better.

Me, too.  One could argue, in fact, that it's long overdue.

 

Edited June 24, 2019 by Kenngo1969

[Scott Lloyd]

On 6/23/2019 at 8:59 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

 

Me, too.  One could argue, in fact, that it's long overdue.

 

I would go further than that and say I can’t think of a more worthy use of tithing funds than training people to preserve the lives and safety of Church leaders and worshipers. 

In fact, I hope would-be thugs who hate the Church and its leaders get wind of this so they will stay away. 

Edited June 27, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

On 5/12/2019 at 9:09 AM, Tacenda said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wealthiest_organizations

The church needs to be open with it's records. According to D. Michael Quinn, the church took in 30 billion in tithing in 2010. The church is the wealthiest church, with less membership. It asks a lot of it's members, in monies. And I know they do bring wealth from the corporate side. But wasn't there an early prophet that once said that when the church had more than enough tithing it would no longer be required? Wish I had the quote. 

Here is an article in the Trib that is interesting, and I have worked at some of these schools that are collecting money for Kenya, and not asking for Kenya to pay them. 

 

It's not an article. It's a letter to the editor.

[Tacenda]

This is very interesting, I wonder if things will change soon. Because back in the earlier church it was told that if the church has enough money they won't require tithing anymore. I wonder if allowing this article to become public, this is leading up to that prophecy. I c/p'd a part of the article on this link: https://kutv.com/news/local/new-historical-information-reveals-original-meaning-of-lds-tithing?fbclid=IwAR0YJkVysg1bkLsXhNIdyXrm6CJ2qZgQ1OTFoXj9hb_qVsMhauuUqAF1ezk

 

(KUTV) The LDS church is shedding more light on the faith's longtime practice of tithing, answering a long-standing debate about how it is referred to in the faith's scriptures and what it means today.

Tithing requires members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to pay one-tenth of their income to the church. That money is then used to fund church operations.

But while tithing has root in Mormon scripture, an LDS historian says the way it was calculated in the late 1830s was far different than what is practiced today.

teven Harper, a former BYU professor who now works at the LDS Church History Department, said tithing was originally based on net worth - not income.

In an article published on LDS.org, Harper said the practice took shape in July 1838 when the faith's founder, Joseph Smith, said he received a revelation about it. This came as the church was looking to raise money to build a new temple, Harper said.

In the revelation as recorded in Mormon scripture, tithing was explained to mean members would give "all their surplus property" to the bishop at the time, Edward Partridge, and thereafter "pay one-tenth of all their interest annually."

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

Because back in the earlier church it was told that if the church has enough money they won't require tithing anymore.

This is, I think, the third time this year that you have made this demonstrably false statement.

[Tacenda]

43 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

This is, I think, the third time this year that you have made this demonstrably false statement.

 

https://archive.org/stream/conferencereport1907a#page/n7/mode/2up

(page 7, second column)

Furthermore, I want to say to you, we may not be able to reach it right away, but we expect to see the day when we will not have to ask you for one dollar of donation for any purpose, except that which you volunteer to give of your own accord, because we will have tithes sufficient in the storehouse of the Lord to pay everything that is needful for the advancement of the kingdom of God. I want to live to see that day, if the Lord will spare my life. It does not make any difference, though, so far as that is concerned, whether I live or not. That is the true policy, the true purpose of the Lord in the management of the affairs of His Church.

 

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

This is, I think, the third time this year that you have made this demonstrably false statement.

Did you see my response above? Is my comment still a false statement? Just checking, unless you mean another statement I've made. I saw this from a thread last summer that Cinepro posted, that's where I saw the quote by Joseph F. Smith. But I believe I've seen it elsewhere as well. I apparently have brought it up twice before according to you, but my memory is foggy on where I posted it. 

Edited November 22, 2019 by Tacenda

[Calm]

A dollar of donation is not the same as tithing.  Tithing is not a donation, imo, in the view of the Church even if it may be in the view of the government.

What he was possibly (likely saying imo) saying is there would be no need to do any fundraising (requesting donations) because members paid their tithes  fully.

If the tithes are sufficient, it means people are paying them.  Otherwise it would be described as reserves or investments imo.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Calm

[Tacenda]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

A dollar of donation is not the same as tithing.  Tithing is not a donation, imo, in the view of the Church even if it may be in the view of the government.

What he was possibly (likely saying imo) saying is there would be no need to do any fundraising (requesting donations) because members paid their tithes  fully.

If the tithes are sufficient, it means people are paying them.  Otherwise it would be described as reserves or investments imo.

That's not how I read it at all. I guess everyone's perspection is different. And I've always heard tithing is a donation. 

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

That's not how I read it at all. I guess everyone's perspection is different. And I've always heard tithing is a donation. 

It is understandable to see it that way as language is used at times including them with donations, such as "online donations".

However, we generally speak of tithing as the Lord's money and that isn't framing it as a donation, imo.

added:

I am going to take back tithing is not a donation in the view of the Church as that language is used in teaching basic principles here:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/tithing-and-fast-offerings/what-is-tithing?lang=eng

How about 'many members do not view it as a donation ' which is in line with my experience, but fits better with current terminology.

Even if we assume that JFS saw tithing as a donation, he could have been stating that tithing would be given of one's own accord without it being asked for as he used the term " tithes" for the abundant money the Church would have.  Remember this is from a time period where many requests for building funds, temple funds, etc. were made and heavily pushed in addition to tithing.  I can imagine leaders looking forward to a time where enough members just accepted tithing as part of standard expenses and never had to be encouraged to be current, so tithing could be taught more about what benefit it is to the person paying it.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Did you see my response above?

Yes, just now. And sorry, I see that I was conflating this statement with a similar one from Pres Snow that you shared a misleading meme regarding earlier this year. I apologise for the mistake (but also note that you seem to have ignored my previous response completely).

But as with the Lorenzo Snow quote, if you look at Pres Smith's entire sermon, it is clear that he was not looking forward to a day when people would not pay tithing any longer. Instead, he looked forward to a day when people's tithes would support the Church so fully that they wouldn't have to be asked for any other kinds of donations. (Do you remember building funds and donations to keep the lights on and fundraisers for youth camps, etc.?)

Just look at what he said directly before the quote you provided:

Quote

I want to say another thing to you, and I do so by way of congratulation, and that is, that we have, by the blessing of the Lord and the faithfulness of the Saints in paying their tithing, been able to pay off our bonded indebtedness.  Today the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints owes not a dollar that it cannot pay at once.  At last we are in a position that we can pay as we go.  We do not have to borrow any more, and we wont have to if the Latter-day Saints continue to live their religion and observe this law of tithing.  It is the law of revenue to the Church.

Pres Smith expected the Saints to continue to observe the law of tithing. Why? Because 'it is the law of revenue to the Church'. It's how the Lord intends His Church to be funded and sustained. And he was congratulating them for having done so. Earlier in the sermon, he was even clearer about the importance of always observing this law:

Quote

I want to say to my brethren and sisters here this morning, that in my opinion there never was a time when the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints were living better lives, were more faithful and more diligent, than they are today. We have various means of judging of this. One very accurate way of knowing is the fact that the law of tithing is being observed.

Please actually look at the link you provided because he goes on and on in discussing the role of tithes in demonstrating a person's faithfulness and in sustaining the work of the Lord.

The good news is that the day that Pres Smith looked forward to has arrived. We no longer assess ward members their share of the ward budget. We no longer require branches to come up with a portion of the funds needed to build their chapels. And so on. Tithing is the Church's revenue stream, and because faithful Saints over many years have observed this law, we now 'have tithes sufficient in the storehouse of the Lord to pay everything that is needful for the advancement of the kingdom of God', exactly as prophesied.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[Tacenda]

44 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Yes, just now. And sorry, I see that I was conflating this statement with a similar one from Pres Snow that you shared a misleading meme regarding earlier this year. I apologise for the mistake (but also note that you seem to have ignored my previous response completely).

But as with the Lorenzo Snow quote, if you look at Pres Smith's entire sermon, it is clear that he was not looking forward to a day when people would not pay tithing any longer. Instead, he looked forward to a day when people's tithes would support the Church so fully that they wouldn't have to be asked for any other kinds of donations. (Do you remember building funds and donations to keep the lights on and fundraisers for youth camps, etc.?)

Just look at what he said directly before the quote you provided:

Pres Smith expected the Saints to continue to observe the law of tithing. Why? Because 'it is the law of revenue to the Church'. It's how the Lord intends His Church to be funded and sustained. And he was congratulating them for having done so. Earlier in the sermon, he was even clearer about the importance of always observing this law:

Please actually look at the link you provided because he goes on and on in discussing the role of tithes in demonstrating a person's faithfulness and in sustaining the work of the Lord.

The good news is that the day that Pres Smith looked forward to has arrived. We no longer assess ward members their share of the ward budget. We no longer require branches to come up with a portion of the funds needed to build their chapels. And so on. Tithing is the Church's revenue stream, and because faithful Saints over many years have observed this law, we now 'have tithes sufficient in the storehouse of the Lord to pay everything that is needful for the advancement of the kingdom of God', exactly as prophesied.

Your quotes don't include the quote I mentioned: "Furthermore, I want to say to you, we may not be able to reach it right away, but we expect to see the day when we will not have to ask you for one dollar of donation for any purpose, except that which you volunteer to give of your own accord, because we will have tithes sufficient in the storehouse of the Lord to pay everything that is needful for the advancement of the kingdom of God. I want to live to see that day, if the Lord will spare my life. It does not make any difference, though, so far as that is concerned, whether I live or not. That is the true policy, the true purpose of the Lord in the management of the affairs of His Church." 

After Calm's response to me, I second guessed myself on how I read the quote in context. I read over 2 to three pages with the above quote sandwiched in. And I still hold to it being tithing. I really hoped I could have c/p'd the thread that occurred in 2018, but kept getting the '403 forbidden' alert, I have know idea why. Maybe someone can inform me how best to share that topic that Cinepro posted and we could gain insight into it. 

But we all have different perceptions of things...like I told Calm.  What do you think about the news article I shared? About church historian Stephen Harper saying what he did about tithing? How it has evolved to be what it is now, compared to the early days?https://kutv.com/news/local/new-historical-information-reveals-original-meaning-of-lds-tithing?fbclid=IwAR0YJkVysg1bkLsXhNIdyXrm6CJ2qZgQ1OTFoXj9hb_qVsMhauuUqAF1ezk

ETA: Going to try again for fun: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70631-joseph-f-smith-and-the-end-of-tithing/

Yay, it worked!

ETA: Ran out of posts, so I cannot respond until tomorrow sometime, in case you need me to.

ETA once again: @Hamba Tuhan

It appears to correlate to Pres. Snow saying tithing is on increase not income. 

Steven Harper, a former BYU professor who now works at the LDS Church History Department, said tithing was originally based on net worth - not income.

Calm: "I don't see how you can ignore what he says immediately before and after your quote.  If JFS believes the law of tithing is the law of Church revenue, is the "true policy", how can you interpret his comments as he sees a time when the law of tithing is no longer a part of the Church?" @Calm In answer to your question in quotes: I believe what he's saying before and after has to do with making sure the members are paying current tithes. The inbetween is the -one day it'll happen that members won't have to pay tithes but still donate voluntarily-aspect, IMO. 

Edited November 22, 2019 by Tacenda

[Calm]

You need to indicate you want to just post a topic as a link, otherwise it attempts to post the full post and 403's.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Just now, Tacenda said:

Your quotes don't include the quote I mentioned.

Why would I need to repeat material you had already quoted?

Quote

And I still hold to it being tithing.

And I am certain, having read the entire sermon carefully, that that is what you want it to say and not what it says. Can you provide a single other quote from JFS suggesting that he viewed tithing as a temporary law? That's a pretty standard practice for interpreting statements. Here's a sampling:

Quote

God requires one-tenth of our increase to be put into His storehouse; and this is given as a standing law to all of the Stakes of Zion.

By this principle (tithing) the loyalty of the people of this Church shall be put to the test. By this principle it shall be known who is for the kingdom of God and who is against it. By this principle it shall be seen whose hearts are set on doing the will of God and keeping his commandments, thereby sanctifying the land of Zion unto God, and who are opposed to this principle and have cut themselves off from the blessings of Zion. There is a great deal of importance connected with this principle, for by it it shall be known whether we are faithful or unfaithful. In this respect it is as essential as faith in God, as repentance of sin, as baptism for the remission of sin, or as the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I have said, and I will repeat it here, that a man or woman who will always pay his or her tithing will never apostatize. It does not make any difference how small or how large it may be; it is a law of the Lord; it is a source of revenue for the Church; it is God’s requirement, and He has said that those who will not observe it are not worthy of an inheritance in Zion.

The law of tithing is the law of revenue for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Without it, it would be impossible to carry on the purposes of the Lord.

I'll await another statement from Pres Smith backing up your interpretation of his words.

Quote

What do you think about the news article I shared?

Click-bait headline with a link to a mildly interesting Ensign article. I remember studying the evolution of tithing from consecration in the basic doctrines Institute course I took.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Your quotes don't include the quote I mentioned:

They precede your quote, so they are providing the context Hamba is speaking of for your quote.  JFS wouldn't say something, contradict what he just said, and then revert back to the position he was taking originally.  No one rational talks or argues like that.

JFS finishes up the section on how tithing affects the financial state of the Church as well as how it is an excellent measure of the spiritual state of its members by saying "that is the true policy, the true purpose of the Lord in management of the affairs of His Church", essentially repeating what he stated shortly before your quote, that "it [this law of tithing] is the law of revenue of the Church".

I don't see how you can ignore what he says immediately before and after your quote.  If JFS believes the law of tithing is the law of Church revenue, that tithing is the "true policy", how can you interpret his comments as he sees a time when the law of tithing is no longer a part of the Church?

Edited November 22, 2019 by Calm

[Jake Starkey]

I have had a number of friends and acquaintances retire from the Corporation of the President, Family and Church History libraries, etc. in the last few years.

More than three of our immediately stopped paying tithing, instead opting to contribute 10% or more to fast offerings, church missionary support, etc.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Jake Starkey said:

I have had a number of friends and acquaintances retire from the Corporation of the President, Family and Church History libraries, etc. in the last few years.

More than three of our immediately stopped paying tithing, instead opting to contribute 10% or more to fast offerings, church missionary support, etc.

Paying fast offerings and supporting missionaries are fine things, but they are not tithing and do not take the place thereof. 

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Jake Starkey said:

I have had a number of friends and acquaintances retire from the Corporation of the President, Family and Church History libraries, etc. in the last few years.

More than three of our immediately stopped paying tithing, instead opting to contribute 10% or more to fast offerings, church missionary support, etc.

Are they retired and not getting income? Or maybe they are suppose to pay on their Social Security payments? Did they say why they don't pay?

[Jake Starkey]

That number should have meant that more than 75% of them are not paying tithing but only fast offerings out of their church retirement.

As one told me, "I am not at least concerned what another member thinks about my not paying tithing.  They are responsible for only themselves and should be responsible only to themselves."

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Jake Starkey said:

That number should have meant that more than 75% of them are not paying tithing but only fast offerings out of their church retirement.

As one told me, "I am not at least concerned what another member thinks about my not paying tithing.  They are responsible for only themselves and should be responsible only to themselves."

I don’t care what they do so long as they don’t teach or advocate such behavior to others. If they do, then I consider it fair game to comment on it. 

Edited November 22, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Are they retired and not getting income? Or maybe they are suppose to pay on their Social Security payments? Did they say why they don't pay?

Retirees do have income, including Social Security, pensions and the proceeds from investments such as IRAs and 401(k)s. 

[Jake Starkey]

Yes, they do have such income, and they also have the right to share how they feel about tithing.

Reminds me of a priesthood holder who gave Brigham a piece of his mind.

Brigham said, "I guess you will leave the church, now."

The answer: "Not a chance, it's my church, too."

I gather than's how some feel about the tithing issue.  Sure, anyone has a right to comment on it.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Jake Starkey

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said:

Yes, they do have such income, and they also have the right to share how they feel about tithing.

Reminds me of a priesthood holder who gave Brigham a piece of his mind.

Brigham said, "I guess you will leave the church, now."

The answer: "Not a chance, it's my church, too."

I gather than's how some feel about the tithing issue.  Sure, anyone has a right to comment on it.

I didn’t say they don’t have the right to share. I said <if> they do, it’s fair game to comment on it.