LDS.org and Mormon.org changing names

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Part of the baptismal covenant is the promise to abide by the Word of Wisdom.  If you openly have not desire to abide by the covenant you're going to make, then the Church won't allow you to make said covenant (such is just setting you up for lots of sin).  

In addition to this...

Bishops may require some evidence of commitment, in my experience a month of required abstinence is not unusual prior to baptism. 

I have an older acquaintance who is a vet with significant health issues who has had trouble with a tobacco addiction.  I believe he was baptized at 8 as his family are members.  A few years ago he was able to achieve control for several months and was finally ordained an elder.  He is welcomed at church no matter where he is at in his struggles.

Exceptions on occasion are made.  In my former ward, there was a severely disabled vet with a intense tobacco habit...used it for pain management.  His health was such the doctors believed trying to withdraw would not only require increasing dangerous pain medications, but the stress itself would likely kill him.  The bishop gave permission for his baptism without requiring abstinence (I assume he classified in his head tobacco as in the category of a prescribed drug if he needed a rationale).  The man was baptized in a local hospital's therapy pool.  Everyone I knew saw it as the right decision as it was obvious the man was committed to the gospel in his heart. The baptism was celebrated in my ward.  He died not long afterwards.

Edited March 9, 2019 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

15 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Um, that for some reason you are triggered by a line in “Praise to the Man,” the result of which being that you declare, “Something’s got to be done,” meaning, I suppose, that you want to get rid of the hymn. 

No.

The topic is whether or not we want the first thing that people know about our church to be that Joseph is now like God or that we worship Jesus Christ and not Joseph, or some person named Mormon.

That is what I've been talking about from the beginning. 

That is what has to change. 

[Scott Lloyd]

23 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

No.

The topic is whether or not we want the first thing that people know about our church to be that Joseph is now like God or that we worship Jesus Christ and not Joseph, or some person named Mormon.

That is what I've been talking about from the beginning. 

That is what has to change. 

Fair enough, but I remain unconvinced that ditching “Praise to the Man” is necessary to achieve that end. Or that a fair-minded person could accurately conclude from any authoritative Church teaching (or standard hymn) that Latter-day Saints worship Joseph Smith instead of Jesus. 

For one thing the hymn does not say that Joseph is “now like God” (I don’t believe that, by the way; I don’t think Joseph has been exalted yet). 

It says he is “mingling with Gods.” I don’t see why that should scandalize you so. Consider its possible applications.

Would you not regard Joseph Smith to be at least as great as prophets and apostles of old? Have they not, in their own circumstances, mingled with Gods? Think of the vision on the Mount of Transfiguration when Moses, Elias and Elijah appeared to the Lord and three of His apostles. Why is it so strange to think that Joseph is mingling with Gods as anointed servants have done in all ages?

Consider the prominent role played by Old Testament, New Testament and Book of Mormon prophets in the early events attendant to the Restoration. Do you think they did this without the direction or direct supervision of the Father and Son? Does it not seem plausible that their “fellowservant” Joseph Smith might have such a role to play at any given time?

We are taught that there is missionary work going on right now in the spirit world, a work that was organized by Christ Himself. Does it not make sense that Joseph Smith would at least have a prominent role in that work under the direction of the Father and the Son?

Joseph interacted with the Father and the Son in the Sacred Grove in a vision not unlike that experienced by the martyr Stephen in New Testament times. Couldn’t their respective visions be regarded as mingling with Gods?

 

Edited March 10, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Stargazer]

13 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Tangent question: can someone receive LDS baptism and not follow the word of wisdom? Is it required for baptism? I ask because I didn't know it was exempt from church discipline.

Permission to be baptized does require observance of the Word of Wisdom. You can receive LDS baptism, however, and not follow the word of wisdom afterwards.  

In saying that it is exempt from discipline, I note that I know of one case about 20 years ago in my old ward in which a member was called into a disciplinary council for it -- I don't know if that was because of ignorance of the rule, or because the rule was different back then.  

[mfbukowski]

18 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Fair enough, but I remain unconvinced that ditching “Praise to the Man” is necessary to achieve that end. Or that a fair-minded person could accurately conclude from any authoritative Church teaching (or standard hymn) that Latter-day Saints worship Joseph Smith instead of Jesus. 

For one thing the hymn does not say that Joseph is “now like God” (I don’t believe that, by the way; I don’t think Joseph has been exalted yet). 

It says he is “mingling with Gods.” I don’t see why that should scandalize you so. Consider its possible applications.

Would you not regard Joseph Smith to be at least as great as prophets and apostles of old? Have they not, in their own circumstances, mingled with Gods? Think of the vision on the Mount of Transfiguration when Moses, Elias and Elijah appeared to the Lord and three of His apostles. Why is it so strange to think that Joseph is mingling with Gods as anointed servants have done in all ages?

Consider the prominent role played by Old Testament, New Testament and Book of Mormon prophets in the early events attendant to the Restoration. Do you think they did this without the direction or direct supervision of the Father and Son? Does it not seem plausible that their “fellowservant” Joseph Smith might have such a role to play at any given time?

We are taught that there is missionary work going on right now in the spirit world, a work that was organized by Christ Himself. Does it not make sense that Joseph Smith would at least have a prominent role in that work under the direction of the Father and the Son?

Joseph interacted with the Father and the Son in the Sacred Grove in a vision not unlike that experienced by the martyr Stephen in New Testament times. Couldn’t their respective visions be regarded as mingling with Gods?

 

You seem to have no understanding of how weird our faith can appear to others who did not grow up with it, one example being the fact that the plural form of "God" alone is shocking to people, conjuring images of Zeus on Mt. Olympus.

That's ONE example

No, others do NOT think that Moses for example is mingling with Gods. In "heaven " yes certainly and mingling with Angels perhaps, other beings perhaps, cherubim and seraphim, but not "Gods." Have you ever noticed in apologetic circles when the scripture is quoted "ye are gods", other Christians immediately take it to be an incorrect translation of "judges."??

I think it must be a cultural thing that one cannot even see if one has been raised with it, and probably the same for those who cannot find it conceivable that there could exist more than one God. 

What is normal to some can be shocking to others.

My point is simply not putting the meat before the milk.

We seem to not be getting far on this point.

 

Edited March 10, 2019 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

32 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

think it must be a cultural thing that one cannot even see if one has been raised with it...

I know many BIC who see it the same way as you, who get the idea that just teaching God is literally our Father and that means there is a Heavenly Mother is blasphemy for many Christians and therefore to start from that point is to set up defensive walls.

Eternal families, otoh...many see that as natural or just believe we will be with our loved ones, so taking it a step further with sealings isn't that big of a step.

Same with the idea of a modern prophet, that extends what happened in the past to happening now.  So not that different.

Beginning to close the gap between Creator and creatures with the Father as having a body is massive enough.  Ignoring the gap completely as if it isn't there isn't wise, imo.

While God's relationship to humanity needs to be taught relatively quickly to frame the doctrine of the Church, I don't think using plurality of gods as a door opener is the best idea.

The first missionary lesson speaks of the Father as having a body and speaks of us as his Family, it doesn't go into Heavenly Mother. So it would seem leadership sees first steps as being more about expanding people's boxes rather than stepping completely out of them.

Lesson two starts out with pointing out differences as well as similarities, though the lesson still does not mention Heavenly Mother.

Quote

God is the Father of our spirits. We are literally His children, and He loves us. We lived as spirit children of our Father in Heaven before we were born on this earth. We were not, however, like our Heavenly Father, nor could we ever become like Him and enjoy all the blessings that He enjoys without the experience of living in mortality with a physical body.

And exaltation being god hood is phrased very gently, imo, opening to the idea with living the life God lives without specifying what that means:

Quote

Exaltation means living with God forever in eternal families. It is to know God and Jesus Christ and to experience the life They enjoy....They will live in God’s presence, become like Him, and receive a fulness of joy.

 

Edited March 11, 2019 by Calm

[rodheadlee]

On 3/8/2019 at 10:09 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

Um, that for some reason you are triggered by a line in “Praise to the Man,” the result of which being that you declare, “Something’s got to be done,” meaning, I suppose, that you want to get rid of the hymn. 

What he is trying to point out to you is that some of us converts had no clue "Mormons" were Christians. 

If you were raised in the church you'll never understand this. In Southern California when I was growing up a Mormon was an unknown quantity. We did not know you were Christians. I didn't study religion I raced motorcycles I worked in a motorcycle shop. We went to the neighborhood church on the corner.

[Scott Lloyd]

51 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

What he is trying to point out to you is that some of us converts had no clue "Mormons" were Christians. 

If you were raised in the church you'll never understand this. In Southern California when I was growing up a Mormon was an unknown quantity. We did not know you were Christians. I didn't study religion I raced motorcycles I worked in a motorcycle shop. We went to the neighborhood church on the corner.

I can understand being careful enough to get the straight story rather than harboring misconceptions drawn from unfounded rumor and groupthink. You don’t have to have been raised in the Church to be able to do that. 

Trying to come up with an analogy, I remember that during my young adulthood, a popular thing was to malign the Hare Krishna movement as a cult. This never seemed right to me, and in my mind, subconciosly perhaps, I resolved to withhold judgment until I had occasion to learn more about them. I even bought a copy of Bhagavad Gita from some of them in the airport in Washington DC while on my way home from my mission. 

Some years later I was proud when our church donated to construction of a Krishna temple in Spanish Fork, Utah. 

Edited March 11, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

20 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Permission to be baptized does require observance of the Word of Wisdom. You can receive LDS baptism, however, and not follow the word of wisdom afterwards.  

In saying that it is exempt from discipline, I note that I know of one case about 20 years ago in my old ward in which a member was called into a disciplinary council for it -- I don't know if that was because of ignorance of the rule, or because the rule was different back then.  

It needs to be acknowledged that failure to observe the Word of Wisdom makes one ineligible for certain privileges in the  Church. 

[Paloma]

Regarding Scott Lloyd's and mbukowski's conversation ...

Several years ago, I attended some sessions of General Conference (transmitted by satellite to an LDS church in a city near to where I live).  I sang along with some of the hymns (as I recall, one of the hymns was "Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty").  But I recall starting to sing, "Praise to the Man ..." and stopping suddenly in extreme distaste and almost disbelief when I realized that the hymn wasn't praising God, but was about Joseph Smith. 

I don't think it was so much about Joseph Smith, but that I'd never sung praises (in a spiritual context) to anyone other than God.  It still comes across as inconceivable (and yes, heretical!) to me that Christian believers would sing hymns praising anyone other than God Himself.

I can appreciate that those who believe that God chose Joseph Smith as His prophet, and restored the church through him, would see it differently.

It's encouraging to me to know that there are some of you who understand how unfathomable it is to non-LDS Christians, to encounter a hymn that apparently  worships someone other than God.  

I'm trying to think of hymns that showcase Biblical prophets, and I don't believe there are any.  Jesus Christ, the One that Abraham, Moses, Elijah, John the Baptist, etc. foretold, shines brightly front and center, and it's impossible for me to imagine singing the heavenly praises of anyone else.  Hymns that come to mind are "Once in royal David's city..." and "Angels from the realms of glory ...", but they're praising Jesus.

I just thought of the children's hymn, "Dare to be a Daniel ..." , and it's the closest thing I can see that focuses on a biblical character without specifically highlighting Jesus (though it does mention "holding the gospel banner high").   But it doesn't so much praise Daniel, as encourage children to be brave in standing for the Lord.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Paloma said:

Regarding Scott Lloyd's and mbukowski's conversation ...

Several years ago, I attended some sessions of General Conference (transmitted by satellite to an LDS church in a city near to where I live).  I sang along with some of the hymns (as I recall, one of the hymns was "Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty").  But I recall starting to sing, "Praise to the Man ..." and stopping suddenly in extreme distaste and almost disbelief when I realized that the hymn wasn't praising God, but was about Joseph Smith. 

I don't think it was so much about Joseph Smith, but that I'd never sung praises (in a spiritual context) to anyone other than God.  It still comes across as inconceivable (and yes, heretical!) to me that Christian believers would sing hymns praising anyone other than God Himself.

I can appreciate that those who believe that God chose Joseph Smith as His prophet, and restored the church through him, would see it differently.

It's encouraging to me to know that there are some of you who understand how unfathomable it is to non-LDS Christians, to encounter a hymn that apparently  worships someone other than God.  

I'm trying to think of hymns that showcase Biblical prophets, and I don't believe there are any.  Jesus Christ, the One that Abraham, Moses, Elijah, John the Baptist, etc. foretold, shines brightly front and center, and it's impossible for me to imagine singing the heavenly praises of anyone else.  Hymns that come to mind are "Once in royal David's city..." and "Angels from the realms of glory ...", but they're praising Jesus.

I just thought of the children's hymn, "Dare to be a Daniel ..." , and it's the closest thing I can see that focuses on a biblical character without specifically highlighting Jesus (though it does mention "holding the gospel banner high").   But it doesn't so much praise Daniel, as encourage children to be brave in standing for the Lord.

In the past some traditional Christian hymns praising men have been posted, but can't remember their names.  Found this one that is generic:

https://www.songandpraise.org/now-praise-we-great-and-famous-men.htm

Not saying they are common, just not completely unknown apparently.

Edited March 11, 2019 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I can understand being careful enough to get the straight story rather than harboring misconceptions drawn from unfounded rumor and groupthink. You don’t have to have been raised in the Church to be able to do that. 

Trying to come up with an analogy, I remember that during my young adulthood, a popular thing was to malign the Hare Krishna movement as a cult. This never seemed right to me, and in my mind, subconciosly perhaps, I resolved to withhold judgment until I had occasion to learn more about them. I even bought a copy of Bhagavad Gita from some of them in the airport in Washington DC while on my way home from my mission. 

Some years later I was proud when our church donated to construction of a Krishna temple in Spanish Fork, Utah. 

Yes some of my best friends are in other religions. in fact one could actually learn things by reading other scriptures. I would highly recommend the Zoroastrian Avesta which speaks of a God of light and a messiah who will come.

When one actually seeks after the truth one can learn a lot.

Edited March 11, 2019 by mfbukowski

[Scott Lloyd]

10 hours ago, Paloma said:

Regarding Scott Lloyd's and mbukowski's conversation ...

Several years ago, I attended some sessions of General Conference (transmitted by satellite to an LDS church in a city near to where I live).  I sang along with some of the hymns (as I recall, one of the hymns was "Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty").  But I recall starting to sing, "Praise to the Man ..." and stopping suddenly in extreme distaste and almost disbelief when I realized that the hymn wasn't praising God, but was about Joseph Smith. 

I don't think it was so much about Joseph Smith, but that I'd never sung praises (in a spiritual context) to anyone other than God.  It still comes across as inconceivable (and yes, heretical!) to me that Christian believers would sing hymns praising anyone other than God Himself.

I can appreciate that those who believe that God chose Joseph Smith as His prophet, and restored the church through him, would see it differently.

It's encouraging to me to know that there are some of you who understand how unfathomable it is to non-LDS Christians, to encounter a hymn that apparently  worships someone other than God.  

I'm trying to think of hymns that showcase Biblical prophets, and I don't believe there are any.  Jesus Christ, the One that Abraham, Moses, Elijah, John the Baptist, etc. foretold, shines brightly front and center, and it's impossible for me to imagine singing the heavenly praises of anyone else.  Hymns that come to mind are "Once in royal David's city..." and "Angels from the realms of glory ...", but they're praising Jesus.

I just thought of the children's hymn, "Dare to be a Daniel ..." , and it's the closest thing I can see that focuses on a biblical character without specifically highlighting Jesus (though it does mention "holding the gospel banner high").   But it doesn't so much praise Daniel, as encourage children to be brave in standing for the Lord.

 

8 hours ago, Calm said:

In the past some traditional Christian hymns praising men have been posted, but can't remember their names.  Found this one that is generic:

https://www.songandpraise.org/now-praise-we-great-and-famous-men.htm

Not saying they are common, just not completely unknown apparently.

We have what is perhaps a different tradition in our hymnody than other Christian faiths. While many of our beloved hymns focus on Christ, some do not, except that He could be considered God in the general sense that the Father is God. A few of these that come to mind are “Come, Come, Ye Saints,” “The Iron Rod,” and “Have I Done Any Good in the World Today?”. 

[Scott Lloyd]

11 hours ago, Paloma said:

Regarding Scott Lloyd's and mbukowski's conversation ...

Several years ago, I attended some sessions of General Conference (transmitted by satellite to an LDS church in a city near to where I live).  I sang along with some of the hymns (as I recall, one of the hymns was "Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty").  But I recall starting to sing, "Praise to the Man ..." and stopping suddenly in extreme distaste and almost disbelief when I realized that the hymn wasn't praising God, but was about Joseph Smith. 

I don't think it was so much about Joseph Smith, but that I'd never sung praises (in a spiritual context) to anyone other than God.  It still comes across as inconceivable (and yes, heretical!) to me that Christian believers would sing hymns praising anyone other than God Himself.

I can appreciate that those who believe that God chose Joseph Smith as His prophet, and restored the church through him, would see it differently.

It's encouraging to me to know that there are some of you who understand how unfathomable it is to non-LDS Christians, to encounter a hymn that apparently  worships someone other than God.  

I'm trying to think of hymns that showcase Biblical prophets, and I don't believe there are any.  Jesus Christ, the One that Abraham, Moses, Elijah, John the Baptist, etc. foretold, shines brightly front and center, and it's impossible for me to imagine singing the heavenly praises of anyone else.  Hymns that come to mind are "Once in royal David's city..." and "Angels from the realms of glory ...", but they're praising Jesus.

I just thought of the children's hymn, "Dare to be a Daniel ..." , and it's the closest thing I can see that focuses on a biblical character without specifically highlighting Jesus (though it does mention "holding the gospel banner high").   But it doesn't so much praise Daniel, as encourage children to be brave in standing for the Lord.

A couple of points: 

“Holy, Holy, Holy” would not have been sung at our general conference, as that is not in our hymnal. I’m acquainted with it, but only from having heard it on recordings and in concerts. We do have hymns that focus on Christ, but that is not among them. 

“Praise to the Man” mentions Christ twice in the first line alone: “Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah, Jesus anointed that prophet and seer.” I can see how one not of our faith would not be comfortable singing that, but it is very much integral to our doctrine. 

And “Praise to the Man” does not communicate worshiping Joseph, not even apparrently. I give my children praise when they do well in school. Doesn’t mean I worship them. I understand praise in the spiritual sense, but my mind can accommodate different connotations. 

Edited March 11, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[ALarson]

11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

A couple of points: 

“Holy, Holy, Holy” would not have been sung at our general conference, as that is not in our hymnal. I’m acquainted with it, but only from having heard it on recordings and in concerts. We do have hymns that focus on Christ, but that is not among them. 

It was sung by the Tabernacle Choir in 2017 (can't tell if that's in conference?):

https://www.mormonchannel.org/radio/mormon-channel-talk/schedule/2017/04/25

Here's a recording of the Choir singing it (YouTube):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJBxK0IQ6XE&list=PLX1snESYxwraB2ODPdVADesxMP7UFDVMh&index=6&t=51s

(I can't get my volume to work on my computer....but that's the title of the video  )

Edited March 11, 2019 by ALarson

[MiserereNobis]

What about hearing If You Could Hie to Kolob as a visitor to an LDS church?

I like the music and the mystical overtones, but that first verse let me know I was in for a ride that Sunday. But then, disappointedly, everything else was pretty bland after that  The family that took me probably was sweating it out during the song, poor guys, but I was going out of interest and it was certainly interesting. I made a note of it so I could look it up later and read all the verses. I don't remember which ones we sang but it was only a couple.

[Scott Lloyd]

8 minutes ago, ALarson said:

It was sung by the Tabernacle Choir in 2017 (can't tell if that's in conference?):

https://www.mormonchannel.org/radio/mormon-channel-talk/schedule/2017/04/25

Here's a recording of the Choir singing it (YouTube):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJBxK0IQ6XE&list=PLX1snESYxwraB2ODPdVADesxMP7UFDVMh&index=6&t=51s

(I can't get my volume to work on my computer....but that's the title of the video  )

I’m aware the Tabernacle Choir has sung it (with somewhat altered words). But the only hymns that the congregation would be singing at conference are ones from our standard hymnal, and the more familiar ones at that. 

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

What about hearing If You Could Hie to Kolob as a visitor to an LDS church?

I like the music and the mystical overtones, but that first verse let me know I was in for a ride that Sunday. But then, disappointedly, everything else was pretty bland after that  The family that took me probably was sweating it out during the song, poor guys, but I was going out of interest and it was certainly interesting. I made a note of it so I could look it up later and read all the verses. I don't remember which ones we sang but it was only a couple.

It speaks of the expansiveness of eternity. 

I lead the singing in our ward. On one occasion, our organist chose that hymn for sacrament meeting and encouraged me to lead the congregation through all the verses (ordinarily we don’t sing the verses printed below the staff). I did so, and one of the men in the congregation commented to me afterwards on my daring. But I did notice one woman had tears in her eyes as she sang. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

“Praise to the Man” mentions Christ twice in the first line alone: “Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah, Jesus anointed that prophet and seer.” I can see how one not of our faith would not be comfortable singing that, but it is very much integral to our doctrine. 

And “Praise to the Man” does not communicate worshiping Joseph, not even apparrently. 

Oh my gosh.

Then who communed with Jehovah and was a prophet and seer?

Especially after the next line" mingling with Gods he can plan for his brethren  ?

By doing what? Throwing thunderbolts at the enemy like the gods of old? 

And when did Joseph "ascend" to heaven?

I don't recall accounts of that

I thought only Jesus "ascended", and someday will return in the same way. Will Joseph be flying down with him?

 

Edited March 11, 2019 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

What about hearing If You Could Hie to Kolob as a visitor to an LDS church?

I like the music and the mystical overtones, but that first verse let me know I was in for a ride that Sunday. But then, disappointedly, everything else was pretty bland after that  The family that took me probably was sweating it out during the song, poor guys, but I was going out of interest and it was certainly interesting. I made a note of it so I could look it up later and read all the verses. I don't remember which ones we sang but it was only a couple.

Yep. I totally get it.

But think of Benediction or whatever it's called now and think about how that would appear to non-Catholics.

Edited March 11, 2019 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It speaks of the expansiveness of eternity. 

I lead the singing in our ward. On one occasion, our organist chose that hymn for sacrament meeting and encouraged me to lead the congregation through all the verses (ordinarily we don’t sing the verses printed below the staff). I did so, and one of the men in the congregation commented to me afterwards on my daring. But I did notice one woman had tears in her eyes as she sang. 

And I suppose she was an investigator who is just heard for the first time in her life correct? As she knew what Kolob was?

You are still not understanding the Central point here! 

Meat before milk!

No one is saying these are not wonderful and enriching hymns. The point is that they are not good for investigators.

I also remember someone welcoming me to church and asked me if I was an investigator. I kind of looked around and thought that perhaps they thought that I was a detective?

Why would they think that?

If we want to grow you have to be aware of the problem of meat before milk

Edited March 11, 2019 by mfbukowski

[MiserereNobis]

59 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Yep. I totally get it.

But think of Benediction or whatever it's called now and think about how that would appear to non-Catholics.

I go to a traditional parish so it's still done and called Benediction. A lot of parishes don't do it anymore (most don't even have Eucharistic Adoration).

Yeah, I'm sure a non-Catholic would wonder what the heck is going on. But Tridentine Catholicism is pretty weird for most people anyway, ha.

[Paloma]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

In the past some traditional Christian hymns praising men have been posted, but can't remember their names.  Found this one that is generic:

https://www.songandpraise.org/now-praise-we-great-and-famous-men.htm

Not saying they are common, just not completely unknown apparently.

Thanks for this hymn, Calm, as it helps satisfy my curiosity about this type of hymn.  After reading the hymn that praises people for, essentially, "nation building", I'm thinking that there may be hymns honouring those who have fought wars, etc.  (I could really go down a rabbit trail, but will resist, especially since I know that derailing threads, though maybe sometimes interesting and fun, is not advisable!)

One more (sadly, irrelevant) comment I just have to add is this.  When I read the words to the hymn you referenced above, I thought to myself that such a hymn extolling the great people who helped build the land, would go over much better in the U.S. than in Canada.  We're much too self-effacing up here north of the border.

[Paloma]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

And I suppose she was an investigator who is just heard for the first time in her life correct? As she knew what Kolob was?

You are still not understanding the Central point here! 

Meat before milk!

No one is saying these are not wonderful and enriching hymns. The point is that they are not good for investigators.

I also remember someone welcoming me to church and asked me if I was an investigator. I kind of looked around and thought that perhaps they thought that I was a detective?

Why would they think that?

If we want to grow you have to be aware of the problem of meat before milk

Ha ha, I thought the same when someone introduced me as an investigator.  I "swallowed" the retort I wanted to give, and smiled politely (I hope!).

[mfbukowski]

On 3/9/2019 at 3:48 PM, Calm said:

In addition to this...

Bishops may require some evidence of commitment, in my experience a month of required abstinence is not unusual prior to baptism. 

I have an older acquaintance who is a vet with significant health issues who has had trouble with a tobacco addiction.  I believe he was baptized at 8 as his family are members.  A few years ago he was able to achieve control for several months and was finally ordained an elder.  He is welcomed at church no matter where he is at in his struggles.

Exceptions on occasion are made.  In my former ward, there was a severely disabled vet with a intense tobacco habit...used it for pain management.  His health was such the doctors believed trying to withdraw would not only require increasing dangerous pain medications, but the stress itself would likely kill him.  The bishop gave permission for his baptism without requiring abstinence (I assume he classified in his head tobacco as in the category of a prescribed drug if he needed a rationale).  The man was baptized in a local hospital's therapy pool.  Everyone I knew saw it as the right decision as it was obvious the man was committed to the gospel in his heart. The baptism was celebrated in my ward.  He died not long afterwards.

@MiserereNobis, this IS within the purview of a bishop in a similar situation.

Also violations of the word of wisdom are not subject to church "discipline" other than withholding a recommend.

 

Edited March 11, 2019 by mfbukowski