not_my_real_name Posted March 8, 2019 Posted March 8, 2019 1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said: If you think that I have missed the meaning of that directive, perhaps you could show that via actual quotations. You’re requesting that I find quotes supporting a lack of qualifying statements? What would you propose I do in order to quote something that doesn’t exist? I, on the other hand, have asked you to provide support for your insight into the mind of the Prophet, and that request remains open.
Scott Lloyd Posted March 8, 2019 Posted March 8, 2019 25 minutes ago, Calm said: I think that is a decent compromise, respectful to the desires of what leadership and members probably in general now want to be called even if not in the habit yet themselves while not forcing its own AP members into awkwardness. No suggestions on alternatives to Mormonism? I think if this remains the same, common usage will remain Mormon. How about “the doctrines and practices of the Church” (assuming it would already be clear from context which Church is meant)?
Calm Posted March 8, 2019 Posted March 8, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: How about “the doctrines and practices of the Church” (assuming it would already be clear from context which Church is meant)? Doesn't work in a list like "Protestantism, Catholicism, and other Christian religious traditions including Mormonism, etc." And then there are discussions about culture that have little to do with doctrine or official policies. Edited March 8, 2019 by Calm 3
Scott Lloyd Posted March 8, 2019 Posted March 8, 2019 (edited) On 3/8/2019 at 2:12 PM, JAHS said: The Associated Press has updated its style on references to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. “We are changing our style on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The church in 2018 began moving away from the widely recognized terms Mormon church and LDS church, and now prefers that its full name be used and that members be referred to as Latter-day Saints,” the AP Stylebook account tweeted. The stylebook's Twitter account recommended the following guidelines for newsrooms and writers who follow AP style: "Use the full name of the church on first reference. For second references, use phrases such as "the church," "church members," "members of the faith" (without quote marks). "Mormon," "Mormons" and "Latter-day Saints" are acceptable only “when necessary for space or clarity or in quotations or proper name,” according to the AP. The AP recommends including a short explanation about the church when mentioning its full name. The account explains, “The term Mormon is based on the church's sacred Book of Mormon and remains in common use by members of the faith.”Associated Press updates style guide on references to church, Latter-day Saints, term 'Mormon' This update still gives them them the option to use the word "Mormon" for space, which I am sure they will do often. Glad to see the AP is coming around. I think this reflects professionalism and respect that it already affords to other organizations and groups. It is inaccurate, though, to state that the Church began moving away from the terms “Mormon Church” and “LDS Church“ “beginning in 2018.” The expressed preference was in place more than a decade before then. I think the AP is loathe to admit that it ignored said preference for so long. Edited March 10, 2019 by Scott Lloyd 4
Robert F. Smith Posted March 8, 2019 Posted March 8, 2019 11 minutes ago, not_my_real_name said: You’re requesting that I find quotes supporting a lack of qualifying statements? What would you propose I do in order to quote something that doesn’t exist? I, on the other hand, have asked you to provide support for your insight into the mind of the Prophet, and that request remains open. You made a series of claims about the directive which you are unable to support by quoting that directive? Is that what you are admitting here?
not_my_real_name Posted March 8, 2019 Posted March 8, 2019 1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said: You made a series of claims about the directive which you are unable to support by quoting that directive? Is that what you are admitting here? My claim was that the directive lacked the qualifications that you inferred. You are asserting presence; I am asserting absence. How can I prove absence using quotations? Do you want me to copy the entire text (Press releases and General Conference talks) here with a lack of highlights of qualifying statements? Is that really necessary when you can read the material yourself and show the presence of such statements? Let’s dispense with the deflections. Instead, support your inferences.
Calm Posted March 8, 2019 Posted March 8, 2019 (edited) 19 minutes ago, not_my_real_name said: My claim was that the directive lacked the qualifications that you inferred. You are asserting presence; I am asserting absence. How can I prove absence using quotations? Do you want me to copy the entire text (Press releases and General Conference talks) here with a lack of highlights of qualifying statements? Is that really necessary when you can read the material yourself and show the presence of such statements? Let’s dispense with the deflections. Instead, support your inferences. You could post the press releases, bold the specific descriptions of how references should be made, and then point out the lack of qualifiers in the text, as in "no terms such as _______ are present" so people can judge for themselves. Could do the same with relevant portions of talks. Edited March 8, 2019 by Calm 1
Scott Lloyd Posted March 8, 2019 Posted March 8, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, JAHS said: The Associated Press has updated its style on references to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. “We are changing our style on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The church in 2018 began moving away from the widely recognized terms Mormon church and LDS church, and now prefers that its full name be used and that members be referred to as Latter-day Saints,” the AP Stylebook account tweeted. The stylebook's Twitter account recommended the following guidelines for newsrooms and writers who follow AP style: "Use the full name of the church on first reference. For second references, use phrases such as "the church," "church members," "members of the faith" (without quote marks). "Mormon," "Mormons" and "Latter-day Saints" are acceptable only “when necessary for space or clarity or in quotations or proper name,” according to the AP. The AP recommends including a short explanation about the church when mentioning its full name. The account explains, “The term Mormon is based on the church's sacred Book of Mormon and remains in common use by members of the faith.”Associated Press updates style guide on references to church, Latter-day Saints, term 'Mormon' This update still gives them them the option to use the word "Mormon" for space, which I am sure they will do often. The importance of this ought not be understated. The vast majority of newspapers and many other news outlets across America adhere to Associated Press style. Edited March 8, 2019 by Scott Lloyd 1
Popular Post Calm Posted March 8, 2019 Popular Post Posted March 8, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, bluebell said: We don't know why the board's name hasn't been changed as the mods don't often communicate with us, other than handling problems. There is no way for anyone to answer your question. All anyone can share is speculation. Possibly relevant is our (FairMormon, not this message board) experience: Quote Editor’s Note: In anticipation of comments and e-mails on the matter, it should be noted that the name ‘FairMormon’ has been licensed from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and we have sought direction from the Church about the appropriateness or need of changing it. We have so far been advised that as we are not a part of the Church and have a different purpose, it is not presently necessary or desirable to do so. We are however in the midst of changing some of our website content to better follow the prophet’s counsel, as we are fully supportive of him and the brethren. https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2018/11/15/a-mormon-by-any-other-name Nothing in regards to the bolded sentence or the rest of the statement has changed since the blog was written. Edited March 8, 2019 by Calm 7
Calm Posted March 8, 2019 Posted March 8, 2019 (edited) Quote More than getting the name right as an institution, the invitation to use the full name of the Church is an opportunity for Latter-day Saints to refocus their lives on the living Christ.... names Latter-day Saints used out of convenience at first but then came to embrace themselves. It’s hard work to undo nearly 189 years of history, culture and practice. But with God the impossible is possible. As President Nelson made clear in August 2018, “we have work before us to bring ourselves in harmony with [God’s] will.” Church leaders understand that this is a complex, multifaceted effort. https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-name-alignment "We", "us", and "ourselves" appear to refer to Latter-day Saints to me. https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/multimedia/file/correct-name-of-the-church-fp-letter-march-2019.pdf Letter refers to "Brothers and Sisters" and does not include directive to ask or encourage nonmembers to also change usage to match that I see. (Can't quote actual text due to tech issue) Edited March 8, 2019 by Calm
Scott Lloyd Posted March 8, 2019 Posted March 8, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Calm said: Doesn't work in a list like "Protestantism, Catholicism, and other Christian religious traditions including Mormonism, etc." And then there are discussions about culture that have little to do with doctrine or official policies. I admit it might not be the easiest or most convenient way to express it. But the easiest way is not always the best way. For a faithful Church member, the motive here might be a desire to conform to a divine directive given through a prophet. For a non-member, it might be to show courtesy and good will by complying with a group’s expressed preference. Edited March 9, 2019 by Scott Lloyd
not_my_real_name Posted March 8, 2019 Posted March 8, 2019 9 minutes ago, Calm said: You could post the press releases, bold the specific descriptions of how references should be made, and then point out the lack of qualifiers in the text, as in "no terms such as _______ are present" so people can judge for themselves. Could do the same with relevant portions of talks. But is that really necessary? If I asserted that the Book of Mormon makes no reference to pizza, would it make sense for me to copy the entire text here, periodically bold sections and note “no mention of pizza here”? Couldn’t I just say, “I’ve read through the BoM looking for references to pizza, including the words “pizza”, “cheese”, “tomato sauce”, “pies” etc and found no instances. You are welcome to read the Book and attempt to falsify my findings.” Likewise I have read the press releases and General Conference talk. I have found no mention of terms commonly used to set the scope of a directive such as “only applies to”, “members only”, “not applicable”, etc. Anyone here, including Brother Smith, is free to read the material for themselves and present evidence to the contrary. 1
Calm Posted March 8, 2019 Posted March 8, 2019 Quote My beloved brothers and sisters, on this beautiful Sabbath day we rejoice together in our many blessings from the Lord. We are very grateful for your testimonies of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, for the sacrifices you’ve made to stay on or return to His covenant path, and for your consecrated service in His Church. General Conference talk is introduced with the above specifying directed to members of the Church. https://www.lds.org/study/general-conference/2018/10/the-correct-name-of-the-church?lang=eng 1
Calm Posted March 8, 2019 Posted March 8, 2019 7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I admit it might not be the easiest or most convenient way to express it. But the easiest way is not always the best way. For a faithful Church member, the motive here might be a desire to conform to a divine directive given through a prophet. For a non-member, it might be to show courtesy by complying with a group’s expressed preference. But the best way needs to make sense in the context...I don't see how any of the variations yet provided really make sense.
Calm Posted March 8, 2019 Posted March 8, 2019 4 minutes ago, not_my_real_name said: Likewise I have read the press releases and General Conference talk. I have found no mention of terms commonly used to set the scope of a directive such as “only applies to”, “members only”, “not applicable”, etc. Anyone here, including Brother Smith, is free to read the material for themselves and present evidence to the contrary. See my recent posts 2
Calm Posted March 8, 2019 Posted March 8, 2019 (edited) Quote As you would expect, responses to this statement and to the revised style guide3 have been mixed. Many members immediately corrected the name of the Church on their blogs and social media pages. Others wondered why, with all that’s going on in the world, it was necessary to emphasize something so “inconsequential.” And some said it couldn’t be done, so why even try? Let me explain why we care so deeply about this issue. Same conference talk...description of responses to directive are limited to members. More speaking to members specifically: Quote Every Sunday as we worthily partake of the sacrament, we make anew our sacred promise to our Heavenly Father that we are willing to take upon us the name of His Son, Jesus Christ.8 We promise to follow Him, repent, keep His commandments, and always remember Him. When we omit His name from His Church, we are inadvertently removing Him as the central focus of our lives. Edited March 8, 2019 by Calm 1
Stargazer Posted March 8, 2019 Posted March 8, 2019 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: At this point I don’t know what it is you want. You disparage s beloved hymn that honors the Prophet Joseph Smith and his divinely mandated role in the restoration of the gospel, the gathering of Israel and the events of the last days, declaring, “It’s got to change,” and then insist you are not calling for a de-emphasis of the Prophet Joseph Smith. I understand that he was speaking as his younger, pre-baptism self, when he had all kinds of thoughts about those odd Mormons. He was channeling himself as he used to think. 2
Calm Posted March 8, 2019 Posted March 8, 2019 Quote Speaking to the media, the prophet added: “We have to be careful to protect the name ‘Mormon.’ The media will think that we are tossing it out. We aren't. We just want to be accurate. Mormon was a man. He was a prophet. He was a writer, a record keeper. We honor him and treasure the book that bears his name. We're talking about the name of the Church.” "We" again appears to refer solely to members of the Church. https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/president-nelson-discusses-church-name-canada 1
Calm Posted March 8, 2019 Posted March 8, 2019 (edited) Quote My reading of the directive is that it applies directly to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as an official organization and to the members of that Church. Pres Nelson did not order the world to comply with that directive, althoughthe Newsroom would like all non-member or unaffiliated news organizations to comply -- that is merely a request My posts containing quotes are references for the above. Edited March 8, 2019 by Calm 1
not_my_real_name Posted March 8, 2019 Posted March 8, 2019 8 minutes ago, Calm said: "We" again appears to refer solely to members of the Church. https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/president-nelson-discusses-church-name-canada Calm, Come on...pronouns? If I said, “I believe stealing is wrong,” would you reference my use of the pronoun “I” in claiming that I only meant that it was wrong for me to steal?
Calm Posted March 8, 2019 Posted March 8, 2019 (edited) 38 minutes ago, not_my_real_name said: Calm, Come on...pronouns? If I said, “I believe stealing is wrong,” would you reference my use of the pronoun “I” in claiming that I only meant that it was wrong for me to steal? Your usage of I only applies to the verb "believe" not "stealing is wrong". The "we", etc. otoh applies to use of the name as in "when we omit his name". Does the rest of the world typically take the Sacrament or bear testimony of the Restored Gospel or honor and treasure the Book of Mormon? Add-on: pronouns are context dependent, "we" does not automatically equate to "the human race" in all contexts. Edited March 9, 2019 by Calm
Stargazer Posted March 8, 2019 Posted March 8, 2019 I suppose I might have commented about this already, but I'm too lazy to verify it. My late wife and I heard the counsel from the Brethren many years ago expressing a preference for the full name of the Church over "Mormon". Neither of us was a fan of identifying as "Mormons" either personally or as a church name descriptor, nor were we fond of the domain names "mormon.org" nor even "lds.org". But I have been a techie for a long time and understand the value of a short domain name, so I considered the matter of domain name as it was at the time to be a necessary compromise. Now that this is to end, I am pleased with the new domain names. Of course the Church will retain the old domain names so as not to allow enemies of the Church to use them against us, and the old domains will be redirected to the new ones using the domain name system feature set aside for it. So, anyone putting "lds.org" into their browser will end up at "churchofjesuschrist.org" instead. It's all very common practice on the internet to deal thusly with name changes and so forth. I myself have a few domain names for my personal business that redirect to a central one. When I commented earlier about waiting for the moaners to start complaining, I must say that the wait wasn't long. 3
not_my_real_name Posted March 9, 2019 Posted March 9, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Calm said: Your usage of I only applies to the verb "believe" not "stealing is wrong". Does the rest of the world typically take the Sacrament or bear testimony of the Restored Gospel or honor and treasure the Book of Mormon? Of course not, but just because they aren’t doing those things doesn’t mean that those aren’t commandments for all of God’s children. What are trying to get at here? That the commandments of God only apply to those who believe in Him? Edited March 9, 2019 by not_my_real_name
Stargazer Posted March 9, 2019 Posted March 9, 2019 4 minutes ago, not_my_real_name said: Of course not, but just because they aren’t doing those things doesn’t mean that those aren’t commandments for all of God’s children. What are trying to get at here? That the commandments of God only apply to those who believe in Him? I wonder if you consider the Word of Wisdom to apply as a commandment to everyone in the whole world? Like "Thou shalt not kill"?
Calm Posted March 9, 2019 Posted March 9, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, not_my_real_name said: Of course not, but just because they aren’t doing those things doesn’t mean that those aren’t commandments for all of God’s children. What are trying to get at here? That the commandments of God only apply to those who believe in Him? Temple endowed are commanded to abide by temple covenants, including wearing of certain clothing in appropriate activities. Circumcision was commanded of the ancient Israelites. Do you believe these commandments apply to all? If not, you appear to accept some commandments are limited to certain groups. You have yet to demonstrate in any way the directive of the name is a commandment for the world. Pres. Nelson has phrased it as directed (commanded) to members and requested of media. Quote “If we will be patient and do our part well, the Lord will lead us through this important task,” he said. “We will want to be courteous and patient in our efforts to correct these errors. Responsible media will be sympathetic in responding to our request.” President Nelson said he recognizes that some people will continue to call the Church by other names. Even so, “it is disingenuous for us to be frustrated if most of the world calls the Church and its members by the wrong names if we do the same.” https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/president-nelson-stresses-importance-of-jesus-christ-church-name Edited March 9, 2019 by Calm 1
Recommended Posts