ALarson Posted February 28, 2019 Posted February 28, 2019 7 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: Did God create hetersexuality? He created us as male and female. Does that answer your question? And gays are male and female too. Also, just because you are heterosexual, it does not mean you can reproduce. (And, a gay person can be a parent.)
Storm Rider Posted February 28, 2019 Posted February 28, 2019 16 hours ago, JulieM said: You can’t possibly be comparing those to a person who is born gay, can you? Sin is sin; I try to resist qualifying what is a worse sin than another. I don't care if it is gossiping or anything else. I think it is healthier to just stick with calling all behaviors in conflict with God's teachings as sin. I find that humans are just too quick to want to point their finger at another in condemnation because they think their sins are so much worse than their own. It is an effort to maintain a focus that all are human, sinners, and we are each God's children. CFR - who is "born" gay? Where has that been proven?
ALarson Posted February 28, 2019 Posted February 28, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: Nope, still not playing your game. I'll take that to mean you really have nothing specific regarding how you personally have been negatively affected or harmed by those who are gay or those who have entered same sex relationships and marriages. That's not playing a game, by the way....it was an honest question and one you must not really have a good answer for. But then, you still remain very bitter and angry about this topic. Maybe just avoid it in the future here? I do that with some topics posted and it works well for me. We all have our triggers Edited February 28, 2019 by ALarson
Calm Posted February 28, 2019 Posted February 28, 2019 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: You might want to do some google searches on gay men and suicide, gay lifestyle and promiscuity, etc. Your experience is not reflective of facts that gay/bisexual men commit suicide four times more than other men. They are far more promiscuous; have more emotional problems and the list goes on. This information is not hidden, just do a few searches and spend some time reading what scientists have found in their own studies on the the gay lifestyle. I will not play word games with you - the gay lifestyle is not uniform, but it is the standard behaviors for the majority of those that claim to be gay and have sex with other men. Do you really think I am not aware of the history and research out there (not all of it, but at least general trend)? It is not word games to require precision when someone is making a global accusation or claim, imo. (I protest when .I see unsupportive global claims in whatever area, I'll point to research contradicting majority "in born" by pointing to percentages in sexual fluidity studies, for example). Does four times as often equate that it is a majority? If not, concluding "lifestyle" causation is problematic. If one accepts the 10% rate of attempts, it still means 90% don't...so if a majority participate in the lifestyle (however defined), it can't be just the lifestyle that drives the rate in all probability. It is possible it contributes, but I would like to see the research that proves it does. At best correlations can be drawn at this point. And that means among other possibilities, something that drives the "lifestyle" also drives the attempts and the might be actions by nongays (I am not saying it definitely is, but there is research that suicide attempts drop and rise with passages of laws favorable or unfavorable, for example). Edited February 28, 2019 by Calm 3
Storm Rider Posted February 28, 2019 Posted February 28, 2019 3 minutes ago, ALarson said: And gays are male and female too. Also, just because you are heterosexual, it does not mean you can reproduce. (And, a gay person can be a parent.) These are nice little strawman arguments that are often brought up. Oh, Jim and Kate are sterile and cannot have children so everyone gay is okay because they cannot have children. It is a specious argument and has nothing to do with reality. What is male and female is how we were made. Really, you want to lead with gays are male and female also? Larson, you are so much better than that; stop it and be serious.
ALarson Posted February 28, 2019 Posted February 28, 2019 10 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: These are nice little strawman arguments that are often brought up. Not strawman arguments at all. They are facts that show how flawed your arguments and reasoning here is. What did I post that was not a fact?
ALarson Posted February 28, 2019 Posted February 28, 2019 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: Really, you want to lead with gays are male and female also? Larson, you are so much better than that; stop it and be serious. Not sure what you really mean (honestly). I am just stating facts. And, you are really the one here who I would hope is "so much better" than to state the ugly, hateful things you come here and post regarding this topic. I'm not surprised you usually end up getting banned. Edited February 28, 2019 by ALarson
california boy Posted February 28, 2019 Posted February 28, 2019 16 hours ago, Storm Rider said: Cal, that is the activist agenda talking - now tell the truth about the gay lifestyle. How many commit suicide? How many have mental/emotional challenges? How many have health problems. Now compare those to the society at large - are they higher percentages or not? Maybe I am reading all the wrong journals and am unaware of how healthy this lifestyle is and that there are no differences between a heterosexual lifestyle and a homosexual lifestyle. Btw, I just used two examples and could go on with similar stories - I suspect you know people who have experienced the same things. My friends are not unique; their story has been lived countless times by others. I think this paragraph is what I want to discuss the most because I think this is the core of your issue with those of us that are gay. Let me tell you about Mormons. I know a bishop, married with 4 kids that had an affair with the relief society president who had 6 kids. They ran off together and abandoned their familes. I know a member in our ward that asked to borrow $5,000 from me because he was about to loose his house. His father was sending him money in two days and he would pay me back with that money. Never got paid back and the guy ended up going to jail for fraud. I wasn't his only victim. A friend I grew up with married the person she loved. Less than a month after their temple wedding, she found out he was a drug addict and tried to harm her. I could go on for another page about the Mormon activist agenda. As you stated, my friends are not unique. their story as been lived countless times by others. Some would say that surely these are the real Mormons. The freshly scrubbed kids that show up at the door are nothing like the Mormons I have known. But that is not true. I know a lot of amazing families and good people that are members of the church. They are so good and willing give of their time and resources to help others and make this world a better place. So who are the "real" Mormons? What is the activist agenda talking? You seem to think your cartoon 2 dimensional version of "a gay" are the real gays. I am some kind of aberation because I have a very normal life. So let me tell you about "the gays" in my life. Bob volunteers at Helping Hands every Wednesday. He has been doing that for years. His husband, Daryn died of Parkinsons Disease 4 years ago. Bob has been heartbroken every since Daryn's death. I would say he was clinically depressed for about a year. Slowly he is coming out of this grief. In this last year, he has met someone. They are both taking things very slowly. We spend time with Bob and now his new friend to keep them in our lives. Last activity we did was when Bob organized about 6 of us to spend the day at the Disney Family Museum. No rainbow flags were waved the entire day. Our neighbors to the left of us are Cheryl and her wife Elaine, a lesbian couple have a 10 year old daughter Ella. We have known Ella since she was 4. My partner has made her a planter box with her name painted on it and helped her plant her own flowers. We send Ella postcards when we travel. She loves hearing about far away places and getting mail. Last activity we did with them is game night at their house with Ella. No gay flags were waived. Our neighbor on the right is Ed. He is a gay man, retired, lives alone, loves to paint and take college courses. The last activity we did with Ed is dinner at his house, with a very good friend of his who is vegan. We made homemade bread and Ed made a vegan dinner with some mock vegan cheesecake because he wanted his friend to be a part of the meal. No gay flags were waved. Our long time friends, Tim and his husband Lou have had their ups and downs. They bought their very first house together right before the big housing crash. In the end, they had to short sale it. Lou lost his job with Macy's during the economic down turn, but has managed to continue to make a living delivering for a local company. Tim is an accountant. He has had plagueing health issues most of his life with food issues. In the last 6 months he has developed some inner ear problem that causes dizzy spells that come on suddenly. The doctors are trying different treatments on him, but frankly are not exactly sure what is causing the problem. The last activity we did with them is dinner at a restaurant. Do I need to contine on to the next page? Would 20 or 40 or more examples of my reality change your mind? Probably not. You believe what you want to believe because it fits your agenda. THIS is the real gay lifestyle that no one writes about and eveidently you think is some kind of "activist agenda talking." I I know, kinda boring huh. For some reason, the main stream press never write about us normal gay families. It just doesn't make the headlines. I know no one who has committed suicide. I know no one who is a drug addict. They are just normal people living normal lives, who happen to be gay. 16 hours ago, Storm Rider said: I have never felt you were not on a path to Christ; I have always seen you as a fellow disciple of Jesus Christ. Why do you think I would perceive you any differently? As I have told you before, I am certain we would be good friends if we lived close to one another. Happy Anniversary to you and your partner by the way. Everything you stated to describe the activities in your life just supports my statements that you are human just like everyone else. So isn't that the goal? For people to find their own relationship with Jesus Christ? Does being gay prevent anyone from having that relationship? Obviously not. So let it go. It's ok for someone to be gay. 16 hours ago, Storm Rider said: We are each on different points in our discipleship. You have often brought this point up about the Celestial Kingdom and how much you reject that vision. All I can say is that you and I don't have a clue what it means to be one with the Father and the Son. You talk as if you already know what that is and are confident that whatever it is, you reject UNLESS it also includes your partner. I suggest that you might want to be open and let God work that out for you. The bold is exactly my point. I do trust God. I don't trust church leaders to know God's plan for me. God has worked it out for me. Maybe I could ask you to also trust God that He knows what He is doing for those of us that have a differnt path to follow back to Him. 16 hours ago, Storm Rider said: You have missed my entire point - it has NOTHING to do with a different viewpoint. Zero, Zilch, nada. It has everything to do with a sexual preference being rammed down the throats of every human alive in this country. That is not a perspective; it is propaganda. It is almost as if activists are so terrified that the choice is wrong they have to keep telling themselves that it is okay. So self-conscious, so insecure. Just bizarre. I have no doubts that God is there for each of his children regardless of their sins, mistakes, or errors. If we are willing to sacrifice our will and accept his will for our lives we can each do all things through Christ. Maybe you can give an example of all these things that are being shoved down the throat of every human alive in this country. I honestly would be interested in hearing exactly what you are referring to. You don't have to be angry or feel like anyone is shoving anything down your throat when you read that another celiberty has married their same sex partner any more than I would be upset when some straight celibrity married their partner. Or some gay person feels their civil rights are being violated. Or whatever you feel is being shoved down your throat. Just one thing, make sure the exact same thing can not be said about all those straight people shoving their lifestyle down every human alive in this country. If you think about this a bit more, and I hope you will since I have invested this much time to respond to your post, I think you will find that being gay is indeed just a different viewpoint on how one lives their life.
california boy Posted February 28, 2019 Posted February 28, 2019 27 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: Sin is sin; I try to resist qualifying what is a worse sin than another. I don't care if it is gossiping or anything else. I think it is healthier to just stick with calling all behaviors in conflict with God's teachings as sin. I find that humans are just too quick to want to point their finger at another in condemnation because they think their sins are so much worse than their own. It is an effort to maintain a focus that all are human, sinners, and we are each God's children. CFR - who is "born" gay? Where has that been proven? I will answer the CFR. I was definitely born gay. Now if you can prove that I am lying or that I was not actually born gay, then have at it.
CV75 Posted February 28, 2019 Posted February 28, 2019 (edited) On 2/26/2019 at 7:44 PM, hope_for_things said: Ha! Is it possible to determine the sexual orientation of a mascot? Is Cosmo the character gay? Since I haven’t seen the mascot ever engage in any acts that might inform someone of sexual orientation, I’m not sure how a person could know. Maybe Cosmo is Bi. Hmmm... so in your estimation sexual orientation is about behavior and not identity, and you are not informed of another's sexual orientation by any other means? Edited February 28, 2019 by CV75 1
CV75 Posted February 28, 2019 Posted February 28, 2019 On 2/26/2019 at 6:15 PM, hope_for_things said: These two articles are interesting to read and the comments section on Deseret News is especially interesting considering the wide diversity of opinions from supportive and accepting to judgmental and bigoted. I'm happy the DNews is publishing more inclusive sounding articles like this. How long can the church continue to have discriminatory policies and conference talks from its top leaders with rhetoric that is hurtful, and at the same time recognize the need for inclusion and love of LGBTQ individuals who are a part of the community and who deserve respect, love and equal treatment. This is a tension that I think can't continue on its current trajectory. Comments & thoughts? https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900057600/guest-opinion-everyone-loved-me-as-cosmo-the-cougar-but-would-they-love-who-i-was-behind-the-mask-byu-lgbt-gay.html https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/02/26/calling-empathy-man-who/ Comments and thoughts on bolded part: nice example of all three! Inclusive sounding because it is not validating an alternative view; discriminatory because use of the term "current trajectory" in the concluding point biasedly invalidates the "more inclusive sounding" trajectory recognized in the first point; rhetorical that is hurtful because it characterizes the policies and messages from the top. But yes, there continues to be a wide diversity of opinions: what could be better than that? Expressing them in a civilly-responsible manner? "Supportive and accepting" is often how the one-sided describe themselves, and "them" as "judgmental and bigoted." 2
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 1, 2019 Posted March 1, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Calm said: Did God create the heterosexual in your view? I am curious as to your world view. I know that you're not asking about my worldview, but the academic answer to your question is a solid no. Heterosexuality has a known (and very recent) genealogy, and pop anthems notwithstanding, there is zero scientific evidence that heterosexuality is inborn. From my perspective, heterosexuality, in its own way, creates as many problems for a Latter-day Saint as does any other kind of socially constructed sexual identity. To take just one example, how does a man who has been socialised and enculturated to experience sexual attraction to women as a class navigate the inevitable persistence of that desire once married to only a single specimen of the class? In our stake, this is the root cause of nearly all disciplinary councils. The challenge, as it is with so many other things, is to see through constructs that feel essential to our own existence but demonstrably aren't. Historical and cross-cultural studies are helpful in this regard, since early 21st-century Western modes of being clearly haven't been universal in the past and still aren't in the present. Too often, however, the response -- including on this forum -- is merely to insist that somehow they have been and are ... especially when they are so entangled with personal identities and political preferences. Edited March 1, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan 4
Calm Posted March 1, 2019 Posted March 1, 2019 4 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I know that you're not asking about my worldview, but the academic answer to your question is a solid no. Heterosexuality has a known (and very recent) genealogy, and pop anthems notwithstanding, there is zero scientific evidence that heterosexuality is inborn. From my perspective, heterosexuality, in its own way, creates as many problems for a Latter-day Saint as does any other kind of sexual identity. To take just one example, how does a man who has been enculturated to experience sexual attraction to women as a class navigate the inevitable persistence of that desire once married to only a single specimen of the class? In our stake, this is the root cause of nearly all disciplinary councils. I thoroughly agree with you here, needed to give more than a rep point. 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 1, 2019 Posted March 1, 2019 9 minutes ago, Calm said: I thoroughly agree with you here, needed to give more than a rep point. Thanks. I added a bit of an edit. Feel free to remove the rep point if you now disagree. 1
Storm Rider Posted March 1, 2019 Posted March 1, 2019 12 hours ago, Calm said: Do you really think I am not aware of the history and research out there (not all of it, but at least general trend)? It is not word games to require precision when someone is making a global accusation or claim, imo. (I protest when .I see unsupportive global claims in whatever area, I'll point to research contradicting majority "in born" by pointing to percentages in sexual fluidity studies, for example). Does four times as often equate that it is a majority? If not, concluding "lifestyle" causation is problematic. If one accepts the 10% rate of attempts, it still means 90% don't...so if a majority participate in the lifestyle (however defined), it can't be just the lifestyle that drives the rate in all probability. It is possible it contributes, but I would like to see the research that proves it does. At best correlations can be drawn at this point. And that means among other possibilities, something that drives the "lifestyle" also drives the attempts and the might be actions by nongays (I am not saying it definitely is, but there is research that suicide attempts drop and rise with passages of laws favorable or unfavorable, for example). I am not aware of any research for any topic that strictly ties an outcome to a specific behavior in the social sciences. I don't recall a single paper that was capable of making such a conclusion. I agree that statistics are challenging. Promiscuity is a problem - agreed, depends on whose perspective is being used - within the gay community. Does that mean all gays are promiscuous? I am not aware of such a study, but if the majority have over 50 sexal relationships and high percentage of minorities of that same group have over 500 relationships, then I think it is safe to agree with the conclusion that promiscuity is a problem. It appears that when the topic is homosexulaity, that we need to be perfectly clear with our vocabulary.
Storm Rider Posted March 1, 2019 Posted March 1, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, california boy said: I will answer the CFR. I was definitely born gay. Now if you can prove that I am lying or that I was not actually born gay, then have at it. That is a subjective, self-serving response. Do you have any science to back up such a claim? Not very helpful either - now if you had said you were born a poor, black boy then we would have something to talk about. If you are aware of any study that supports your claim, I would be interested in reading it. Edited March 1, 2019 by Storm Rider
Calm Posted March 1, 2019 Posted March 1, 2019 Quote ? I am not aware of such a study, but if the majority have over 50 sexal relationships and high percentage of minorities of that same group have over 500 relationships, then I think it is safe to agree with the conclusion that promiscuity is a problem. Are you aware of research or just making numbers up out of your head? I can't tell given the first phrase and then the "safe to agree" comment. Perception and expectations of LGBTs have changed dramatically over the last thirty years. I think there has been enough significant change, researchers need to justify using any stats older than 20 years and maybe 15 to draw more global conclusions as opposed to saying this is happening at this time. I would be interested in seeing if surveys like this below are reliable or if the methodology chooses too unique of a population to test to draw general conclusions. If so, it does point out that such limited populations might have impact on other studies depending on how subjects are found: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/oct/19/gay-men-promiscuous-myth Quote Last week one of the world's largest dating websites, OkCupid, collated and published the results of their user "match" questions, which are designed to find out as much as they can about their 4 million members in order to help them find dates. The statistics are startling. There is only a one percentage point difference between heterosexuals and homosexuals in their promiscuity: 98% of gay people have had 20 or fewer sexual partners; 99% of straight people have had the same number. Tellingly, OkCupid found that it is just 2% of gay people that are having 23% of the total reported gay S-x 1
california boy Posted March 1, 2019 Posted March 1, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, Storm Rider said: That is a subjective, self-serving response. Do you have any science to back up such a claim? Not very helpful either - now if you had said you were born a poor, black boy then we would have something to talk about. If you are aware of any study that supports your claim, I would be interested in reading it. Your identifying as straight is just as subjective. Do you have any scientific proof that you are straight? Are you attracted sexually and emotionally to the same sex? Do you have scientific proof that you have not sexual and emotional attraction to other men? Maybe everyone is actually gay. They are just pretending to be attracted to the opposite sex. Edited March 1, 2019 by california boy
california boy Posted March 1, 2019 Posted March 1, 2019 On 2/27/2019 at 4:24 PM, Storm Rider said: I have and have had several friends that have chosen this path. Steve was one of my mom's favorites in our branch. He was effeminate, sickly, but had a heart of gold; a great pianist and could twirl a baton better than almost everyone. He eventually left home and worked at Disney World for a few years. He returned home for a short while. He looked great; lost his acne, was more confident in himself and had a vision of where he was going - the church was not included in that path. He left for San Francisco and was dead within twelve months. Another very close friend left his wife after having six children, went through lovers at an astounding rate, married two of them and we have lost touch - the gospel of Jesus Christ has long since being a part of his life. I have been thinking about your gay friends and their "lifestyle" choice that seems to be the basis for your anger and basis for condemning the gay community. Have you ever thought that perhaps the choices they made had nothing to do with being gay, but maybe they were just living the Mormon lifestyle. Deseret News Quote The divorce rate, which was once believed to be much lower among Latter-day Saints than the general population, is only from 5 percent to 10 percent lower than the national average of 50 percent, he said. While the national surveys did not measure LDS temple marriages as opposed to civil unions, he said for couples who "both attend church regularly, the lifetime divorce rate is about 25 to 30 percent." Do you have the same condomnation for the "Mormon lifestlye". Can you tell us how your other friend died? How do you know it was directly related to him being gay? Maybe opoid use was the cause of death since Utah has one of the highest uses of opoids I have to say, your "Mormon lifestyle" is not looking all that good. Should I have the same attitudes about Mormons as you do towards gays? Should I be angry that the Church is shoving your religion down our throats every time the Church puts out a press release or shows up at our doors? I think you need a bit more evaluation of your attitudes towards gays. 1
Tacenda Posted March 1, 2019 Posted March 1, 2019 1 minute ago, california boy said: I have been thinking about your gay friends and their "lifestyle" choice that seems to be the basis for your anger and basis for condemning the gay community. Have you ever thought that perhaps the choices they made had nothing to do with being gay, but maybe they were just living the Mormon lifestyle. Deseret News Do you have the same condomnation for the "Mormon lifestlye". Can you tell us how your other friend died? How do you know it was directly related to him being gay? Maybe opoid use was the cause of death since Utah has one of the highest uses of opoids I have to say, your "Mormon lifestyle" is not looking all that good. Should I have the same attitudes about Mormons as you do towards gays? Should I be angry that the Church is shoving your religion down our throats every time the Church puts out a press release or shows up at our doors? I think you need a bit more evaluation of your attitudes towards gays. Bingo!
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