Things that Increase or Diminish Faith

[Calm]

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That should be obvious in the recent arrest of a Lehi sitting bishop who was also running a prostitution ring.)   

Is he actually running a ring or was the sting presented as him being hired to run/create one?  I read it as him offering to "manage" two women who  were undercover cops, but there was nothing indicating he was doing so with actual prostitutes.

I just want to be accurate, not downplaying his crime or intent.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Calm

[CAS]

Thank you for your comments, what you think is important and I am taking notes for my own personal use and for the development of what I think.  I am avoiding any deep discussions or making replies directed at persons who may have misunderstood or are questioning how or what I wrote initially, mainly because I don't feel qualified to do that and honestly that is not my intent. I acknowledge my inability to write this post in an erudite manner that might impress others, but that was not my intent either, I just want to learn from you and not create enemies in doing so. What you think is especially important in this matter, since there does not appear to be a lot of research that has or even can be done on this question, and due to what I will address below.

Some of what I think is this: I was not born into nor raised in an LDS family and I think that being reared in an active LDS home is a wonderful and powerful and extremely rare thing, it may not seem rare if LDS people are all around you for most of your life, but the fact is LDS communities are literally a drop in the bucket on this earth. My family taught me to be mean in order to avoid being taken advantage of, this is the opposite of what it means to be a faithful saint. My family taught me to abandon others if they are inconvenient to you (I was abandoned at age ten and have been making my own way since then), this did not help me in making a stable and strong family, which I have done with the immense help of the Lord, my wife and the church, people like you. My family taught me to beat children to get them to obey and tell them that you are beating them because it will hurt you more than it will hurt them, this illogic was not difficult for me to see through as it never came across as logical - thus this stopped in my generation. Most of my education came in the form of reading, seeking teachers I wanted to learn from, reform schools, state school systems and in community colleges coupled with quite a lot of military and state worker training, I have been unimpressed with this education, for the most part, since there is almost nothing there that taught me how to live righteously, although there was some ethics taught. I also believe it is not the calling you have that will grow your faith, but it is your attitude towards your calling, with the right attitude you will increase your faith no matter what you are doing. I find daily scripture study to not be second nature and I am trying to make it so, I do find that I act better and I feel better inside when I am reading and actually taking notes and learning from the scriptures daily and I try to do this every morning and night and am finding that it does positively impact my faith in the Lord and my ability to face my faults with God when I pray. I do claim to have had a very strong witness of the Holy Ghost on several occasions, particularly the day I was confirmed. I say "claim" since I cannot prove this and do not expect anyone to believe it. I do not notice much in regard to those who claim to have had spiritual experiences, but sometimes it appears that those who talk about them rarely and who exhibit what looks like a faithful life tend to be believable. I do not think that having spiritual experiences is nor should be all that rare.

Again, I definitely want you all to know that, to me, what you think on this subject is of great interest since there are many things that unlike probably most of you I have not personally experienced and therefore not been able to draw out of those experiences the deep and profound feelings and thoughts that you now have. Please excuse me if I have not written this in a way that you find satisfactory and please try to work around that, I am not capable of doing that.

[Hamba Tuhan]

On 2/21/2019 at 8:29 AM, CAS said:

I am curious if people believe there is an actual relationship between faith and:

1. Education, does it strengthen or weaken faith?

I have a BA, an MA, a PhD and a postgraduate diploma. I don't think any of that formal education has had much impact, good or bad, on my faith. I do feel that I've learnt to better analyse certain kinds of information and certain complexities, and in many cases that has made it easier to see through some things that are designed to hurt faith (much of the nonsense, for example, about Church history not being 'faith promoting'), but I don't think my faith would necessarily have been harmed without this either.

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2. Types of callings, does being a Teacher help one be more faithful than say a Family History Consultant? Are there callings that appear to be more likely to increase a person’s faith? What are those callings?

Any calling that one genuinely magnifies will increase faith. A bishop can just go through the motions, and the end result will be immense spiritual damage, both to himself and to those he's been asked to shepherd.

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3. Family background, persons from a strong by the book family - do they tend to have more success rearing faithful children and being faithful members themselves?

I honestly don't know what you mean by a 'by-the-book family'. I've seen families in the Church be both too firm/forceful and too flaky/fluffy. I think the four Standard Works and the teachings of latter-day prophets, when understood and applied, are as close to foolproof as one can get in this world. The big picture that comes from knowing the Plan of Salvation, the reality of the Atonement, and the essential role of agency creates in the family a 'zone of proximal development' for faith, in my opinion. I will be forever grateful to my good and simple parents, who acted out of both faith and necessity over the course of my lifetime, demonstrating to me over and over again that God is real, that He hears and answers prayers, and that He will reveal Himself to us. Our family survived on this reality. (And if it hadn't been real, we would not have survived!)

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4. Those who claim to have felt the Holy Ghost, do they tend to have stronger faith?

I'm inherently skeptical. When people tell me things I don't already know, my first reaction is to disbelieve them ... unless I have already had similar experience. The only thing that has ever convinced me that I should take what someone else tells me seriously enough to act on it myself has been if the retelling invited the influence of the Holy Ghost -- which somehow makes the improbable (or even ridiculous) temporally feel possible. This aligns, I believe, with what the scriptures teach us about the essential role of the Holy Ghost in creating knowledge of spiritual things. I think the Spirit also has an important role to play post-action as well, as He confirms what our experiences have taught us.

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5. Regular daily scripture study, does this help make a person more likely to be faithful?

Only if one actually does something with it. I've known Church members who've almost sequestered themselves in scripture study and never attained any real knowledge because study is in the realm of theory, not experience. It's like going to hundreds of hours of chemistry lectures but never setting foot in the lab.

After work last night, I headed to hospital to meet up with a very less-active ward family who are sitting vigil at the bedside of the wife's elderly mother, who has had a very serious stroke. During the visit, the teachings of the Lord from the scriptures came to me, and I knew good and comforting things to say because I have read those books over and over again. But it was important to be at the hospital with this family for a significant chunk of 'my' time, or that never would have happened, and all that study would have been for nought. My pattern is to spend a few minutes studying the word and then get up and get out of the house to live the word for the rest of the day.

And that leads me to my answer to your title question. The word translated as 'faith' in the New Testament means, in Greek, trust/loyalty. We increase our trust in and loyalty to the Lord in similar fashion to how we increase our trust in and loyalty to other people. We spend time with Him. We check out if He keeps His promise. We act, diligently (faithfully!), on His words and observe what happens. In doing so, we shift from the lecture theatre to the laboratory. As a member of the Church, there have been hundreds of things I just haven't believed ... until I lived them for myself. Everything you listed above can help with that process, but none of it alone is enough.

I think it's almost become background noise when an apostle says something like, 'Faith is a principle of action', but it absolutely is. If you don't know if an angel visited you three times during the night or if that was just a vivid dream, go to the hill and look under the rock. If there are plates there, you're onto something.

By the way, I also think this is the only way that we can truly learn to recognise the voice of God in our lives. Over time, I've tracked where different voices have led me. Increasingly, I know which are mine (definitely in the plural!) and which is His.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I don’t think that this study shows that education increases faithfulness among Latter-day Saints. Given that this survey only questioned self-identifying LDS other interpretations are possible. For example, among those that are less devout, educated people are less likely to identify as Mormon than less educated. That is, people with college education are more likely to either fully commit or fully withdraw. 

Actually that is not what this Pew research showed:

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One such finding is the relationship between religious commitment and education among Mormons.

David Campbell, a University of Notre Dame associate professor and another adviser on the survey, noted that the more educated respondents were, the higher their levels of religious commitment.

"I was a little surprised by that," said Campbell, who is LDS and who has extensively studied on the role of religion in the public square. "The more educated a Mormon is, the more likely they are to be wholehearted in their commitment to the church and its teachings."

That is different from other churches, he said, where more education tends to lead to more religious skepticism.

The real question we need to ask is why this reverse feature should be characteristic of Mormons.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Robert F. Smith

[Hamba Tuhan]

22 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Actually that is not what this Pew research showed:

The real question we need to ask is why this reverse feature should be characteristic of Mormons.

In support of what you've written, Robert, and in opposition somewhat to what I wrote about myself above, it is definitely a feature of our ward that, broadly speaking, education levels align with activity levels. We have one or two 'apostates' who would be highly educated, but overwhelmingly our inactive members would be those with a high-school certificate or less. The last time I served in the bishopric, our bishop was the head of educational quality at one of our universities, and both I and the other counsellor had PhDs and worked at the same uni. Our bishop before that was a lawyer in the Department of Immigration. I was his second counsellor, and his first counsellor works in the Department of Defence. Our current bishop works as a senior manager in Veterans Affairs. His first counsellor is a police detective. His second counsellor works in aerospace engineering. The ward clerk is a medical doctor. 

[changed]

On 2/21/2019 at 9:53 AM, ALarson said:

So how does one who has lost some of the trust they formerly had in their leaders (past and present), continue to strengthen their faith in Jesus Christ?  Do the two have to be connected?

 

I think losing trust in earthly leaders can cause many to seek a more direct personal relationship with the Savior.  Faith changes from trusting a church to directly trusting the Savior.

[changed]

On 2/21/2019 at 9:40 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

In support of what you've written, Robert, and in opposition somewhat to what I wrote about myself above, it is definitely a feature of our ward that, broadly speaking, education levels align with activity levels. We have one or two 'apostates' who would be highly educated, but overwhelmingly our inactive members would be those with a high-school certificate or less. The last time I served in the bishopric, our bishop was the head of educational quality at one of our universities, and both I and the other counsellor had PhDs and worked at the same uni. Our bishop before that was a lawyer in the Department of Immigration. I was his second counsellor, and his first counsellor works in the Department of Defence. Our current bishop works as a senior manager in Veterans Affairs. His first counsellor is a police detective. His second counsellor works in aerospace engineering. The ward clerk is a medical doctor. 

There are many contributing factors of course.  It would be interesting to see how the Mormon population aligns with the general population - what percentage of the general population have college degrees, vs. what percentage of the Mormon population have degrees.  I'm guessing Mormons do not represent the general population - which could be interpreted as not catering or serving disadvantaged populations well.  I think those from lower income brackets would have a hard time balancing the demands of the Mormon church.  When you are not able to attend the many meetings due to work, not able to dress as nicely as others, not able to dedicate as much of your time to callings due to work - then you do not fit in well, and will not be active.

Most religious organizations have half-way homes, shelters, fund hospitals - their service is given to those in need.  I think most of the service in Mormonism is not to poor uneducated people - but instead to its own members.  Members typically only serve other members - preparing lessons, organizing activities, keeping very busy - but the vast majority of Mormon service is internally serving, not reaching out to those who are really struggling.  

Missions are for proselytizing not serving, I really do not see a lot of significant service.  Mormonism is kind of a club for rich educated people who want to feel like they are serving, when really, they are only serving themselves.  

Poor, uneducated people in the Mormon church go inactive... because they are not wanted.

 

Edited February 22, 2019 by changed

[Calm]

2 hours ago, changed said:

I think most of the service in Mormonism is not to poor uneducated people - but instead to its own members.  

Your assumption is right in that the majority of our service is to church members, but we also volunteer in addition as much as other Americans to nonmembers (see this and my following post for references) 

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormon-volunteerism-report

“According to the data, while the average American volunteers some 48 hours per year (4 hours per month) to charitable causes, an active Latter-day Saint volunteers 427.9 hours annually (35.6 hours per month) — a contribution worth an estimated $9,140 annually....Aside from these efforts, the study found that individual members give an additional 34 hours annually to other social causes unrelated to the Church.”

Edited February 22, 2019 by Calm

[RevTestament]

34 minutes ago, changed said:

There are many contributing factors of course.  It would be interesting to see how the Mormon population aligns with the general population - what percentage of the general population have college degrees, vs. what percentage of the Mormon population have degrees.  I'm guessing Mormons do not represent the general population - which could be interpreted as not catering or serving disadvantaged populations well.  I think those from lower income brackets would have a hard time balancing the demands of the Mormon church.  When you are not able to attend the many meetings due to work, not able to dress as nicely as others, not able to dedicate as much of your time to callings due to work - then you do not fit in well, and will not be active.

Most religious organizations have half-way homes, shelters, fund hospitals - their service is given to those in need.  I think most of the service in Mormonism is not to poor uneducated people - but instead to its own members.  Members typically only serve other members - preparing lessons, organizing activities, keeping very busy - but the vast majority of Mormon service is internally serving, not reaching out to those who are really struggling.  

Missions are for proselytizing not serving, I really do not see a lot of significant service.  Mormonism is kind of a club for rich educated people who want to feel like they are serving, when really, they are only serving themselves.  

Poor, uneducated people in the Mormon church go inactive... because they are not wanted.

I've known a good number of LDS families who were  basically blue collar non-degreed workers. They weren't poor by world standards because they worked hard, but they were probably poor by US tax standards because of the size of their families. In fact I would guess over half of my first ward was like this. Now that probably does not describe the typical LDS family in happy valley, but it does still accurately describe many families outside of Utah, and many, many families world wide. They were faithful families who were bishops, and relief society presidents, etc. And they also routinely helped those in their neighborhoods - including non-members. I've seen that in Utah as well. But to be honest many non-members in Utah don't want to have anything to do with Church members. They don't want help, etc. I'm sure the homeless and elderly feel differently, but most others do not.

[Calm]

“While LDS members volunteered fewer hours to causes independent of the church, even if this were the only volunteer activity of Latter-day Saints, it would equal the national average of volunteering of all Americans, according to the study which cites previous research conducted by the Corporation for National and Community Service.”

https://penntoday.upenn.edu/news/penn-research-shows-mormons-are-generous-and-active-helping-others

PS:  I am not in anyway bragging about the hours Saints put into volunteering.  I think we owe it to our greater communities as well as our ward families and church to serve.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

Just an FYI I would like to share as I wasn't aware of it and thought it might help friends or family members of posters or lurkers...The Pathways education program is not limited to only members, though there needs to be some connection and no worthiness interview though a commitment to "strive to live" the CES Honor code:

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Individuals who are not members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints may be considered for admission if they have a close tie to the Church, such as having a family member, friend, or other close acquaintance who is a member of the Church; actively learning about the Church; or attending church meetings

https://byupathway.lds.org/admissions#pathwayconnect

The PEF does serve only temple worthy Church members, but only those who  generally could not receive an education without help.  Check out the map here for the countries where the PEF can be used:

https://universe.byu.edu/2017/06/09/new-lds-pathway-program-will-affect-the-churchs-perpetual-education-fund/

Both programs appear to rebut the claim that Mormonism is a club for rich people to serve themselves and poor, uneducated members are unwanted (well, we don't 'want' them in the sense we want to help the poor leave poverty behind and the uneducated to become educated).

Edited February 22, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

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With millions of Church members worldwide, it is not surprising to find members in many locations who lack the spiritual and temporal necessities of life—yet who are actively yearning for the ability to provide for themselves and their families.

Since 2014 the Church has opened more than 1,100 Self-Reliance Resource Centers in or near stake centers. The historic Perpetual Education Fund is one component of this exciting new internationally focused Self-Reliance Services initiative that is operating in 75 countries.

Local priesthood leaders invite members to join self- reliance groups in which they support each other in learning and living essential principles of spiritual and temporal self-reliance. In addition, participants learn how to start and grow their own businesses, develop interview skills that can lead to new jobs, or create an education plan that may include a loan. As a result, their hope increases and they develop new skills for a better life.

https://www.ldsphilanthropies.org/perpetual-education-fund

[Calm]

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How We Operate

Two ideas are at the core of the Humanitarian Services response:

100% of every dollar donated is used to help those in need—without regard to race, religion, or ethnic origin.

Humanitarian Services helps people attain self-sufficiency so they can be self-reliant long after Humanitarian Services departs.

Results

In 2017 Humanitarian Services worked in 139 countries and territories on 2,705 projects with over 1,800 partners to serve millions of people.

https://www.ldsphilanthropies.org/humanitarian-services

One I hadn't heard about yet...partnering with orphanages in the Philippines which has high numbers of human trafficking of abandoned children:

https://www.ldsphilanthropies.org/humanitarian-services/news-features/getting-orphans-into-right-van

Edited February 22, 2019 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

In support of what you've written, Robert, and in opposition somewhat to what I wrote about myself above, it is definitely a feature of our ward that, broadly speaking, education levels align with activity levels. We have one or two 'apostates' who would be highly educated, but overwhelmingly our inactive members would be those with a high-school certificate or less. The last time I served in the bishopric, our bishop was the head of educational quality at one of our universities, and both I and the other counsellor had PhDs and worked at the same uni. Our bishop before that was a lawyer in the Department of Immigration. I was his second counsellor, and his first counsellor works in the Department of Defence. Our current bishop works as a senior manager in Veterans Affairs. His first counsellor is a police detective. His second counsellor works in aerospace engineering. The ward clerk is a medical doctor. 

But shouldn't all those well-educated guys be more likely to be atheists?  What is it about the LDS community, religion, culture, etc., which finds a confluence of faith and intellect?  Is LDS theology more coherent than other theologies?  Is it that the Mormon community is a kind of ethnicity or way of life?  What is the secret ingredient(s)?

[changed]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

“While LDS members volunteered fewer hours to causes independent of the church, even if this were the only volunteer activity of Latter-day Saints, it would equal the national average of volunteering of all Americans, according to the study which cites previous research conducted by the Corporation for National and Community Service.”

https://penntoday.upenn.edu/news/penn-research-shows-mormons-are-generous-and-active-helping-others

PS:  I am not in anyway bragging about the hours Saints put into volunteering.  I think we owe it to our greater communities as well as our ward families and church to serve.

 

It is the type of volunteer work, not the hours.  I do not consider proselytizing to be volunteer work for example.  How many half-way homes, women's shelters, and soup kitchens does the LDS church own and operate for example?  How many drug rehab clinics does it own and operate?  I have seen homeless people come to church, and get turned away with nothing to offer them.  Tithing is not spent on poor people, it is spent on church buildings - and even that - it is confusing how one could spend say https://www.gymmembershipfees.com/ymca-prices/ $25 per person for YMCA membership - and somehow the YMCA is able to maintain buildings and exercise equip, provide classes by professionals, provide 24/7 service (not just once a week service)... and yet what does the LDS church do with 10%?  The YMCA does so much more with their $25 than Mormons do with their 10%.  

I make this comparison because the YMCA is a place you can send homeless people too.  A homeless person can get a shower, a place to stay, and a job at the YMCA - they are has youth intervention services etc. etc. all for the low low price of $25/month you support a good cause and you get access to exercise equip and classes.  http://ymcacolumbus.org/housing  Does the Mormon church offer housing and supportive services - they get a lot more $ from their members, so what are they doing with it exactly?

The vast majority of the "service" and "volunteer" work within the Mormon church is given only to Mormons - and only to Mormons in good standing.  Mormons are really good at serving themselves and calling it noble.

Edited February 22, 2019 by changed

[ALarson]

10 hours ago, changed said:

 

I think losing trust in earthly leaders can cause many to seek a more direct personal relationship with the Savior.  Faith changes from trusting a church to directly trusting the Savior.

Great point and I know this is where I'm at too.  

I love the gospel and I love my Savior.  I love my ward and the people who I serve and serve with....they are my family and I look forward to seeing them every week.  I have wonderful, dear, Christlike friends there who I cherish and love being around.  It strengthens my faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ when I'm with them and serving.  There is so much to love about this church!

I have issues with several things, but I've worked through most of them and remained faithful.  My testimony is very different today from what it was even 10 or 20 years ago, but it's a strong testimony of the gospel.

I do not like the idol worship that goes on with some of the church leaders as I do believe they are just good men doing the best they can.....not any different than those serving in callings on a local level.  I feel that Pres. Nelson truly loves and cares about the members and is making changes that will help them remain at church, serve (locally and on missions), and feel welcome at church.  I'm not happy with the overall treatment of the gays (the policy, etc.) and I feel the church needs to come a long ways to combat the abuse that takes place (in every religion but we should do better at screening and training).  I'm hopeful more changes regarding these two issues will happen in the future.

So that's my faith in a nutshell  

I increase my faith by serving and showing love to others, by living the gospel of Jesus Christ the best that I can.

Edited February 22, 2019 by ALarson

[Calm]

On 2/22/2019 at 6:18 AM, changed said:

How many half-way homes, women's shelters, and soup kitchens does the LDS church own and operate for example?  How many drug rehab clinics does it own and operate?  I have seen homeless people come to church, and get turned away with nothing to offer them.

You are assuming a model that the Church does not use.  When there are already facilities in place, they work with partners rather than duplicate efforts.  This allows for resources to go much farther because of less overhead and redundancy.  Plus it speeds up getting help to where it is needed because the Church does not have to establish a presence themselves before contributing. (Added:  This is not assumption on my part, but how Sharon Eubank explained how LDS Humanitarian Services works nationally and internationally).

I have seen a myriad of homeless and people in difficulties get helped myself.  One of my former wards (Calgary, Canada) was placed at the intersection of major highways (meaning lots of buses as well as long distance travel traffic) plus it was next to a major university and within walking distance of a hospital.  The chapel shared its parking lot with the university and was across the walk from my husband's office, so he parked there daily.  He often came across people living out of their car or wandering about looking for assistance. We fed or took in kids, pets, and adults and he hooked them up with the current transient bishop. At times when that was our bishop, he often had a calling where he was involved in getting them what they needed.  

There were also a number of ongoing ward and stake projects to help nonmembers, including making bag meals for the homeless in our building's kitchen in conjunction with another faith community, members working at a local soup kitchen (one group had refused the offer due to us being nonChristian in their eyes, another jumped on us when they heard of the rejection though they had our members working in the back), and an annual stake clothing exchange that overflowed our cultural hall where those in need (members or not) were invited to come in before the doors were open to take their pick before the rest of us got a chance.

We have been in other wards where the opportunity for me to personally observe or be involved was much more limited, but my husband has often had callings that provided the same sort of experiences so I know my Canadian experience was not unusual.  He also volunteers every Tuesday he can at the local Bishop's storehouse here in Utah Valley and sees nonmembers being helped out all the time.

I have no doubt that there are bishops who turn people away.  I also know there are cases where transient bishops informed each other of 'frequent flyers' (there were three chapels along the Calgary bus route iirc and it was not an uncommon practice for some transients to hit all three while traveling across town), so one might help but the others would not if it was obvious an individual was taking advantage, so it might appear to others that someone wasn't being helped when they had been.

Can we do better?  Certainly, but I think refusing to recognize help being currently offered is counterproductive as it leads to people not making use of what is there or being less likely to contribute because they think there are no avenues to do so when there are actually massive opportunities available.

-----

Even removing church related volunteer hours (which would include proselyting or church callings), Saints in general still matched hours volunteered by Americans in general as reported in the research I cited.  To ignore those simply because we spend many other hours volunteering through church functions seems unrealistic to me.  Examples I have known of nonChurch related volunteering activities have been volunteering at schools (what I used to do pretty much daily when I had one kid, preferred job is tutoring and helping in the library, least preferred job was organizing class parties), volunteering at hospitals or meals on wheels or with literacy programs in conjunction with local libraries, political activism, using family vacations to travel and volunteer at orphanages, taking vacation days and traveling to disaster areas to help rebuild, and even working at soup kitchens (I know a number of members who have chosen this as their family effort) or handing out food and blankets to homeless populations.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Calm

[SeekingUnderstanding]

15 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

But shouldn't all those well-educated guys be more likely to be atheists?  What is it about the LDS community, religion, culture, etc., which finds a confluence of faith and intellect?  Is LDS theology more coherent than other theologies?  Is it that the Mormon community is a kind of ethnicity or way of life?  What is the secret ingredient(s)?

The atheists wouldn’t identify as Mormon would they? So how would you know? I am a college educated ex-Mormon atheist, who went from being fully in (per survey questions) to fully out in a matter of a couple of month. Mormonism doesn’t allow a lot of middle ground when approached in an intellectual way. What makes you think the survey indicates education strengthening faith vs education making people either fully commit or fully leave (and hence not show up among self identifying Mormons in the survey). 

Edited February 22, 2019 by SeekingUnderstanding

[SeekingUnderstanding]

22 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Actually that is not what this Pew research showed:

The real question we need to ask is why this reverse feature should be characteristic of Mormons.

The (***edit: unsourced) survey on faith crisis (****edit: that may have been presented to the church leadership) indicated that it affects those with significantly more education than the average member. Does this mean that education decreases faith or could something else be going on here?

https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/documents/faith_crisis_study/Faith_Crisis_Report_R24B.pdf

Edited February 23, 2019 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Navidad]

On 2/20/2019 at 2:29 PM, CAS said:

 

This is my first post on this forum, I am hoping to be able to learn something here from your experiences and your opinions. If you have professional studies you recommend please provide a link if there is one and if not please be concise in your explanation, since what I am looking for is what you THINK. If there is already an exact post on this line of thought (I looked and could not find one) please provide the title so that I can look it up. Thank you.

Welcome to the forum. Are you interested in knowing what makes people faithful to their faith group in general, or only what makes LDS Christians faithful to their faith? I don't want to chime in with my thoughts about why I am faithful to my faith, if that is not your intent.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Navidad

[Rain]

 

9 hours ago, changed said:

 

It is the type of volunteer work, not the hours.  I do not consider proselytizing to be volunteer work for example.  How many half-way homes, women's shelters, and soup kitchens does the LDS church own and operate for example?  How many drug rehab clinics does it own and operate?  I have seen homeless people come to church, and get turned away with nothing to offer them.  Tithing is not spent on poor people, it is spent on church buildings - and even that - it is confusing how one could spend say https://www.gymmembershipfees.com/ymca-prices/ $25 per person for YMCA membership - and somehow the YMCA is able to maintain buildings and exercise equip, provide classes by professionals, provide 24/7 service (not just once a week service)... and yet what does the LDS church do with 10%?  The YMCA does so much more with their $25 than Mormons do with their 10%.  

I make this comparison because the YMCA is a place you can send homeless people too.  A homeless person can get a shower, a place to stay, and a job at the YMCA - they are has youth intervention services etc. etc. all for the low low price of $25/month you support a good cause and you get access to exercise equip and classes.  http://ymcacolumbus.org/housing  Does the Mormon church offer housing and supportive services - they get a lot more $ from their members, so what are they doing with it exactly?

The vast majority of the "service" and "volunteer" work within the Mormon church is given only to Mormons - and only to Mormons in good standing.  Mormons are really good at serving themselves and calling it noble.

These are things I know from my little corner of the world and yet I know very little of everything going on:

My ward, a fairly not well off ward with a title 1 school in the last year on top of all the "serving themselves" service in the last year has fed the men at the men's shelter twice. They would do it more often, but the rest of the stake did it the rest of the 2 weeks and other stakes did it other weeks. They have served at Feed My Starving Children 3 times. Made blankets for refugee children. Quilt, bind and tie quilts every week for children who I think are abused and are in foster care, had 2-3 scavenger hunts through the neighborhood for 3 different charities, collected food for the food bank, made blankets and Christmas presents for a boys home, collected backpacks, shampoo, soap etc for asylum seekers, made snack bags for children of single moms going to court, moved a disabled man. There are some other things as well, but I've forgotten. And that is just the activities associated with church meetings which most likely get counted as "serving themselves" even though none of these things were for members of the church.

This is not counting things where people have volunteered in schools (where their children are not going), donated furniture and household goods to refugees, taken asylum seekers into their homes, played Santa Claus and his helpers at a baptist church with asylum seeker children, serving at food banks etc. And that doesn't count the rest my stake.

As a Just Serve specialist I found that finding out what other members do for service is like pulling teeth because no one wants to be "seen of men", but if you watch you start seeing a whole lot of service going on.

I've found like calm said that when a service is in place the church supports it instead of duplicating it. 

In the past year I've learned how the church is giving a LOT of money, not only to other organizations, but churches as well who help those that need it in just my little area. It is unreal to me how often I find out the church is donating here and there. Not just money, but food from the storehouse and household items from DI etc. 

And a lot of how that is happening is members of the church who get the word out that they need more volunteers for this organization or that and their ward members come and volunteer again and again and all that starts to trickle up the chain. The church is then able to find out through the volunteers not only the monetary needs, but the service ones as well so we start to have older couples, or singles who are some of the backbone of these charities and younger missionaries both on service missions and on regular missions putting in the energetic service needed by the youth and I'm not talking about proselyting as well. 

Yes, there are some people who only do the church service of teaching. There are also some who only help those they minister or who fall under their calling. But if you think the church and members of the church are not giving or serving outside of the church then it can only be because you have not heard of the vast amounts of things going on - understandable since the church doesnt advertise it, but if you are in charitable circles very long I would be surprised if you didn't start hearing about it pretty quickly. The funny thing is you might recognize that it is the church helping even when the charity doesn't  - I heard last year about a charity telling another charity that they were receiving help from 3 organizations - Deseret Industries, the bishop's storehouse and one other one I've forgotten, but they didn't know all 3 were from our church!

[Calm]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

The church’s survey on faith crisis indicated that it affects those with significantly more education than the average member. Does this mean that education decreases faith or could something else be going on here?

https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/documents/faith_crisis_study/Faith_Crisis_Report_R24B.pdf

That was not the Church's survey, but an independent group who included Dehlin's survey in their research...which then offered their work to the Church leaders.  I don't know if they actually gave a presentation because leadership decided to listen or it was just given to connections to pass on to other leaders.  Pretty sure it was not just posted online though.  Can't remember if this was discussed or not.

It is obviously Dehlin's survey because of the numbers involved.  I thought he was cited in the paper, but then I couldn't find him referenced specifically last time I looked...but compare his description of methodology in his survey with this paper...identical.

Dehlin does the same thing in making it appear like research initiated by the Church when he labels his work as "research for the LDS Church" on his johndehlin website when it was nothing of the sort, but rather research he hoped leadership would pay attention to.

Maybe the group didn't present it that way intentionally, but the word of mouth has created the perception it was Church initiated.  I find that a bit hard to believe though given those involved include experienced writers.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Calm

[Navidad]

I would also add that there is a lot of research on religious belief and faith. That is one reason I asked the OP for clarification. I probably have some information on LDS faith; but most of mine will be religious faith without regard to denominational affiliation. 

[Calm]

I feel like I am obsessing about the study not being presented as Church leadership initiated, so I should explain why I see it as a problem and have posted multiple times on this (it feels like every time the study gets mentioned, but I hope not).

And that is false expectations.  I assume and assume many others will assume as well the Church has a different and likely more extensive set of data than independent researchers can acquire, therefore I judge and assume others would judge a church sponsored survey which would likely be given such data (waste of money if they solicited such work, but then hamstring by not giving access to data) would be more accurate and in depth than one collected using online self selected methods, such as Dehlin used, which have very limited uses imo.  (They did expand on Dehlin's work with interviews and other stuff, so less limited than his).

So my apologies if I repeat this, but I will be speaking up if I see it referred to as the Church survey or some variation of that in the future (I posted on the same a short time ago, it feels weird to repeat myself so soon, but not everyone reads every post so understandable if such a response gets missed).

Edited February 23, 2019 by Calm

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

That was not the Church's survey, but an independent group who included Dehlin's survey in their research...which then offered their work to the Church leaders.  I don't know if they actually gave a presentation because leadership decided to listen or it was just given to connections to pass on to other leaders.  Pretty sure it was not just posted online though.  Can't remember if this was discussed or not.

It is obviously Dehlin's survey because of the numbers involved.  I thought he was cited in the paper, but then I couldn't find him referenced specifically last time I looked...but compare his description of methodology in his survey with this paper...identical.

Dehlin does the same thing in making it appear like research initiated by the Church when he labels his work as "research for the LDS Church" on his johndehlin website when it was nothing of the sort, but rather research he hoped leadership would pay attention to.

Maybe the group didn't present it that way intentionally, but the word of mouth has created the perception it was Church initiated.  I find that a bit hard to believe though given those involved include experienced writers.

Thanks and I’ve edited my post. It is immaterial to the point I was trying to make anyway. In order to determine what effect education has on faith, you need to do a lot more than ask self reported Latter-day Saints. You would need to do a much larger controlled study that includes those who no longer identify as LDS.