Robert F. Smith Posted March 1, 2019 Posted March 1, 2019 2 hours ago, changed said: collaborations are wonderful things, but I give credit to those who own and operate the venture. If I am going to choose an organization to belong to, it would be the organization who owns and runs charity ventures, not those who simply donate to it. Changing the goal posts based on your realization that your previous claims were mistaken is not a sign of probity. All along you thought that those non-LDS charitable organizations were working on their own. Why are you so angry and disappointed to discover that the LDS Church was working quietly behind the scenes to assist them? And not in a small way. 2 hours ago, changed said: As well as the comments in italics above - I will say this about bringing people to Christ. Last Sunday we had a talk on missionary work, in which the percentage of inactive saints in our ward was discussed. Thing is, right before the meeting, I was at Starbucks meeting with a group of inactives. I asked one family who had recently left if anyone had talked with them - the answer was no. No one reached out to them, no one called them - this was a really really active family - who has now not been to church sense December. We have formed our own support group for one another, because there was no support, and no discussion from anyone in the church. This is after I asked - I asked for a faith support group - and was told no, that the regularly scheduled church meetings would be good. When it comes to real questions, there is a dis-fellowship of sorts that happens. Real missionaries are not afraid of difficult questions - and do not ex-communicate (officially or unofficially) those who ask harder questions. The missionaries came into RS - they handed out a piece of paper "How to share the gospel" - and the entire list was nothing but how to preach - teach, testify, invite - and no where on there was the word "listen". LDS teaching is one-way, from them to you, with nothing in return. No answers to real questions. No listening to what you are really struggling with. Childish primary answers. Jesus listened to his critics. He answered their questions. He ate dinner with sinners and publicans - I am not seeing this in the LDS church. The 50+% of the ward that is inactive because hard questions are not being addressed and answered? It is a joke - to listen to the sacrament meeting talk, and then - knowing the inactives - knowing no one reached out to talk with them - knowing everyone turned their nose up at the hard issues, and would rather believe they left because they were "sinners" than to believe they left because they had concerns about church history, about racism, about gender roles, and polygamy, and everything else - want a list of what causes people to lose faith? read the CES letter - read "Letter to my wife". That is why so very many people leave. The deliberate falsehoods contained in the so-called "CES Letter" should be small comfort to those who bear false witness about the LDS Church. Losing faith based on a lie is probably not the best basis on which to make decisions. Jesus was not namby-pamby about that, instead he was a thunderbolt to the liars and hypocrites. 2 hours ago, changed said: Google "Who are the most charitable organizations in the world" and you will get lists like: https://topyaps.com/top-10-charitable-organizations-in-the-world/ The LDS church did not come up in any of my searches with the above. There are a great many non-religious or secular charitable organizations worldwide. Sometimes they are called NGOs (non-governmental organizations). Many of those you found on that list are supported by governments, or groups of governments, like the U.N. None of them are churches. Those you did not list include The Gates Foundation (run by Bill Gates and his wife), another is Jimmy Carter's The Carter Center, another is Habitat for Humanity. Perhaps you have donated to such organizations. If so, that is great. I have done that also, as have many Mormons. However, you apparently do not know what "per capita" means. Of all religious organizations, the LDS Church contributes more per capita than the others. That does not mean the total is larger, only that the individual giving is greater for each LDS member. The Roman Catholic Church may donate more money total than any other church only because it is such a large organization, but the individual giving per member is much smaller than for the LDS. Here is a non-Mormon research chart which shows per capita giving: Quote Mormon: 5.6% Assemblies of God: 2.9% Nondenominational Evangelical: 2.6% Baptist: 2% Lutheran: 1.5% Jewish: 1.4% Eastern Orthodox: 1.3% Methodist: 1.2 % Episcopalian: 1.2% Presbyterian: 1.2% Catholic: .7% Muslim: .6% Buddhist: .6% http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2012/01/29/sunday‑review/29giving‑gfx.html?ref=sunday‑review . Once again, your apriori assumptions are shown to be completely false. 2
changed Posted March 1, 2019 Posted March 1, 2019 10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I only have your posts in this forum to go off of, but I'm assuming your realise that you sound very angry, accusatory and judgemental in many of them? Do you think it's possible that you've scared other members away? I personally like the 'challenge' of a disaffected member, but I can understand why others might not ... especially when we all have to pick and choose whom to minister to in our limited time. Just a thought. I do not mean to sound angry - I guess tone of voice does not come through. I think these issues - around the early church - are hard issues to talk through. What some consider honest, legitimate concerns, others consider offensive and rude to bring up. I'm not sure how anyone is going to gain a testimony if there are taboo topics that will cause "believers" to become defensive and offended. I have told several in our ward (including the entire RS last Sunday) that if they want to get inactives to come back to church, they will need to face the harder issues. Consider the scriptures - do they hide what Judas did? Do they hide when the apostles are confused, cannot walk on water, cannot heal people? If the scriptures can be honest with all of the problems their apostles and prophets had - from Adam to Jonah - why can't the LDS church be honest with the problems their apostles and prophets have/had?
changed Posted March 1, 2019 Posted March 1, 2019 8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Changing the goal posts based on your realization that your previous claims were mistaken is not a sign of probity. All along you thought that those non-LDS charitable organizations were working on their own. Why are you so angry and disappointed to discover that the LDS Church was working quietly behind the scenes to assist them? And not in a small way. The deliberate falsehoods contained in the so-called "CES Letter" should be small comfort to those who bear false witness about the LDS Church. Losing faith based on a lie is probably not the best basis on which to make decisions. Jesus was not namby-pamby about that, instead he was a thunderbolt to the liars and hypocrites. There are a great many non-religious or secular charitable organizations worldwide. Sometimes they are called NGOs (non-governmental organizations). Many of those you found on that list are supported by governments, or groups of governments, like the U.N. None of them are churches. Those you did not list include The Gates Foundation (run by Bill Gates and his wife), another is Jimmy Carter's The Carter Center, another is Habitat for Humanity. Perhaps you have donated to such organizations. If so, that is great. I have done that also, as have many Mormons. However, you apparently do not know what "per capita" means. Of all religious organizations, the LDS Church contributes more per capita than the others. That does not mean the total is larger, only that the individual giving is greater for each LDS member. The Roman Catholic Church may donate more money total than any other church only because it is such a large organization, but the individual giving per member is much smaller than for the LDS. Here is a non-Mormon research chart which shows per capita giving: Once again, your apriori assumptions are shown to be completely false. Robert - I did not leave over the CES letter, or over charity - I left because a bishopric member abused my kids, and I lost faith in leadership. I am now meeting with a group of ex-mo's, and the majority of their issues stem from things like the CES letter. 1
CAS Posted March 1, 2019 Author Posted March 1, 2019 12 hours ago, changed said: collaborations are wonderful things, but I give credit to those who own and operate the venture. If I am going to choose an organization to belong to, it would be the organization who owns and runs charity ventures, not those who simply donate to it. That is in no way representative of why I joined this organization. It had nothing to do with people and what they do at all.
CAS Posted March 1, 2019 Author Posted March 1, 2019 12 hours ago, changed said: Things that increase faith - faith in what? Here is my list of things that increase my faith in God (not in church, in God) Seeing that everyone through the world, regardless of creed or color, hold to basically the same beliefs when it comes to serving others, loving one another, learning, working, being honest etc. Diversity and freedom of beliefs mixed with everyone coming to the same conclusions on the important things in life, this increases my faith that God loves everyone (not one gorup or another)etc. http://www.scifiwright.com/2013/02/illustrations-of-the-tao/ Nature - nature increases my faith in God. My own free will and choice - knowing we believe what we want to believe, I like the idea of believing in an all-loving God (although not necessarily an all-powerful one). Increase faith in a church - in a religious organization: I don't think anyone is supposed to have faith in any organization or group. If it is a political group, or religious group, or sports group - or I don't care what kind of a group - I am impressed if the group is able to handle diversity, allows freedom of speech and freedom of inquiry. I respects groups who hold everyone in the group as equals, that show respect concern and understanding for one another. Groups who are honest - open - vulnerable with one another - supportive - that do not require anyone to be perfect, take everyone as they are, and respect everyone enough to know preaching is not needed. Since faith also means to have confidence I have to somewhat disagree. After what I have heard, seen, felt and lived over the last 45 years I have great confidence in the Church, and in my case more than any other. This is not the only Church I have been a member of nor is it the only Church or type of religion (Christian) I have considered and studied before joining, although I did not join this Church based on my reasoning or intellect.
Navidad Posted March 1, 2019 Posted March 1, 2019 My faith is increased in the quiet times when I am alone or with my wife. My faith is increased when I pray and receive confirmation of a reply in my spirit. My faith is increased when I experience growth in my Christian life via sanctification by the Spirit. This comes at times when I am able to overcome something that at some time in the past I might not have been able to overcome. My faith is increased when I see, talk and pray with Christians of other faiths. I hear and feel the Spirit in their prayers. I know they believe some things differently than me. That just increases my appreciate for, and faith in an omnipotent God who gives to all men generously. I believe in the mystery of faith and of knowledge of that which is far above and beyond our comprehension. I have faith in the gospel and the church that is the Christian church in all its manifestations, variant doctrines, and human fallibility. I have faith that the atonement is what unites us all and that it is sufficient to bind every Christian and every Christian church in the world to each other. I have faith in God's authority. I have confidence that He will give it through His Spirit to whomever He will. Last, I have faith that the work of Christ is sufficient for my salvation. I believe the work of sanctification is a joint effort between Him and me and that it pleases Him when I do well and that it saddens Him when I don't. I am pretty sure that I believe that heaven will be a time of reflection, awareness, and continual growth for eternity. I say pretty sure, because I am very cautious about being too confident of that which is in the future. 2
Robert F. Smith Posted March 1, 2019 Posted March 1, 2019 3 hours ago, changed said: Robert - I did not leave over the CES letter, or over charity - I left because a bishopric member abused my kids, and I lost faith in leadership. I am now meeting with a group of ex-mo's, and the majority of their issues stem from things like the CES letter. I did not say that the CES Letter caused you to leave, and I have no problem at all with you and your family leaving the LDS faith. In my opinion, people can come and go as they please, and I do not complain about it at all. Indeed, I fully respect such individual choices. I do call into question faith in fallible leaders and fallible organizations -- no matter how well-meaning such leaders and members of those organizations may be. The only faith worth having is in Jesus Christ and in his Gospel, which means his Atonement and ethical/moral teachings. Faith in any human organization is very unwise, to say the least. Yet all of us are members of a variety of human governmental and social organizations, and we usually have little choice in that fact. I also call into question the bearing of constant false witness against this or that institution which they blame for not being perfect. The CES Letter is merely one example of reckless disregard for the truth which is used to libel and smear an innocent group of people. If Mormons and the Mormon Church are so horrible, then at least tell the truth about them. That should be quite enough. 2
Navidad Posted March 1, 2019 Posted March 1, 2019 On 2/24/2019 at 7:38 PM, Hamba Tuhan said: Terminal decline is a point where, if membership decrease is not reversed, the church will actually cease to exist by a known date ... at which point there is literally no one left in that church to 'express enthusiasm for their faith'. For example, in the five years between our last two censuses, the number of Catholics identifying declined 10.67 per cent. And the number of those claiming membership in our largest Protestant denomination declined 22.22 per cent. Our second-largest Protestant denomination posted a 26 per cent decline! That's all in five years. Unreversed, these declines will result in the extinction of all three churches. This would be less worrying if there seemed to be a movement into more 'vibrant' faith groups, but that's not showing up in the census, where the 'all other Christian' category increased by just over 10 per cent of the Catholic Church's loss. Other named Christian churches are actually all faring even worse. Lutheran identification, for example, dropped 41.67 per cent in the same five years. No named denomination has increased between the two censuses. Those remaining steady are limited to the Latter-day Saints, the Salvation Army, the Adventists, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Pentecostals. I totally get your point about numbers not equalling enthusiasm (or faith), but vibrant, effective churches for the most part don't lose nearly half of their members in a five-year period. Beyond that, Christian-bashing is only increasing. Literally just this weekend, our 'proudly progressive' government announced that they'll be banning school chaplains from next year. (They're already optional and work at no cost to the school.) Increasingly, people of faith who will disagree with this decision are too scared to complain very loudly. And that includes our Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu and Sikh friends. Hey amigo - are your data points for the world or for the United States? Just curious. Mennonites are for example declining in the US, but are booming in Mexico, Belize, Bolivia, and Ethiopia. It is a fascinating development within what has historically been a culture-bound denomination.
changed Posted March 1, 2019 Posted March 1, 2019 5 hours ago, CAS said: Since faith also means to have confidence I have to somewhat disagree. After what I have heard, seen, felt and lived over the last 45 years I have great confidence in the Church, and in my case more than any other. This is not the only Church I have been a member of nor is it the only Church or type of religion (Christian) I have considered and studied before joining, although I did not join this Church based on my reasoning or intellect. I used to have confidence in the church - wanted a place on earth that was safe so very badly I was able to look the other way for years and years... then when I needed support the most, I found no one was willing to be there for anything hard.... if you have a baby, or are in the hospital - losing someone you love - setting up funerals, normal things like that - then great - the LDS church is a wonderful support - can give you rides, bring you meals etc. etc. but if it is something more serious - drug abuse, divorce, abuse - then time after time I have seen people left to their own devices. I guess it really does parallel M17:16 I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him.... for more serious things - there is no balm in Gilead. What is worse - when some disciples find they are unable to help someone, rather than admit their shortcoming and send that person to their Savior - rather than admit they are not strong enough - they will remain silent, or blame the victim, or do anything they can to avoid the situation all together. If someone is not able to help - I get that - I deal with many students I am unable to fully help - I cannot fully solve their problems for them, but I can at least mourn with those who mourn, show sympathy, admit that I am not strong enough either - and not leave them isolated, not leave them alone - to not be silent and ignore them.
changed Posted March 1, 2019 Posted March 1, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: I did not say that the CES Letter caused you to leave, and I have no problem at all with you and your family leaving the LDS faith. In my opinion, people can come and go as they please, and I do not complain about it at all. Indeed, I fully respect such individual choices. I do call into question faith in fallible leaders and fallible organizations -- no matter how well-meaning such leaders and members of those organizations may be. The only faith worth having is in Jesus Christ and in his Gospel, which means his Atonement and ethical/moral teachings. Faith in any human organization is very unwise, to say the least. Yet all of us are members of a variety of human governmental and social organizations, and we usually have little choice in that fact. I also call into question the bearing of constant false witness against this or that institution which they blame for not being perfect. The CES Letter is merely one example of reckless disregard for the truth which is used to libel and smear an innocent group of people. If Mormons and the Mormon Church are so horrible, then at least tell the truth about them. That should be quite enough. Separate the wheat from the tares - yes, there are issues within the CES letter, but there are also truths within it. There were some very ugly things within the early church - some very ugly things through the entire history of the church, and it does no good to ignore or be silent about it. As I said in another post - if you read the NT - the original apostles made some really big mistakes - and those mistakes are fully acknowledged and recorded in the scriptures for all to see and read. No one tries to hide the mistakes, we all learn from them. example: Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of the heavens. The apostles made a HUGE mistake, trying to keep little kids from coming to Jesus. If I can re-apply that scripture a little? Suffer the Africans to come unto me and forbid them not, allow everyone of all races to come unto me and forbid them not for of such is the kingdom of the heavens. Rather than blaming God for the priesthood ban, or refusing to admit a mistake was made, or refusing to admit racism existed and still exists within the church - rather than putting that mistake out there for everyone to see - when you hide it, belittle it, blame the surrounding society - make excuses for yourself, instead of admitting the mistake? This is very troublesome. Repentance applies to organizations - not just people. If the LDS church could say "we have made mistakes, we are not led by God in all things, no disciples or apostles were ever led by God on all things, we make mistakes just as prophets and apostles of old made mistakes and we are sorry about anything we have done to lead anyone astray, or distance anyone from their Savior and for God. Know that we are only disciples like all of you - we will do our best to lead and guide, but in the end everyone must come to their own individual testimony. 58. 26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward. Now there is a scripture I can get behind. Not only are we not to be commanded in all things - if we run across something that goes against our conscience - members of the LDS church should be free to disagree with some of the things the prophet has taught - we're not supposed to follow Jonah into any boats or into the mouth of a fish. We all agree the LDS church is not perfect - are there any examples - any at all - where the church repents and admits honestly mistakes that have been made? We all agree that the LDS leaders are not pefect - are there any examples - any at all - where leaders admit their mistakes, and advise followers not to follow everything? Advise followers they need to think for themselves? If someone refuses to repent - refuses to come clean - what is your opinion of that person??? no matter how much good they do, if they cannot repent, and repentance is the most important thing there is just about - if they cannot repent, they are not washed clean - running around in soiled garments until they repent... It is not an innocent group of people until repentance happens. Repentance involves being sorry for the mistakes, admitting mistakes, confessing them to all who have been hurt, this is the first step in moving forward. Edited March 1, 2019 by changed
CAS Posted March 1, 2019 Author Posted March 1, 2019 2 hours ago, changed said: I used to have confidence in the church - wanted a place on earth that was safe so very badly I was able to look the other way for years and years... then when I needed support the most, I found no one was willing to be there for anything hard.... if you have a baby, or are in the hospital - losing someone you love - setting up funerals, normal things like that - then great - the LDS church is a wonderful support - can give you rides, bring you meals etc. etc. but if it is something more serious - drug abuse, divorce, abuse - then time after time I have seen people left to their own devices. I guess it really does parallel M17:16 I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him.... for more serious things - there is no balm in Gilead. What is worse - when some disciples find they are unable to help someone, rather than admit their shortcoming and send that person to their Savior - rather than admit they are not strong enough - they will remain silent, or blame the victim, or do anything they can to avoid the situation all together. If someone is not able to help - I get that - I deal with many students I am unable to fully help - I cannot fully solve their problems for them, but I can at least mourn with those who mourn, show sympathy, admit that I am not strong enough either - and not leave them isolated, not leave them alone - to not be silent and ignore them. I suppose I look at this differently than you, when something was going on that no one could help me with, I either went at it alone (which never worked) or I went to the Lord (which has never failed). But, that is just me. Has nothing to do with whether the Church is legit or not. Knowing that the Church is legit never came to me from other mortals, but I do understand that a lot of people find out that way. 2
changed Posted March 1, 2019 Posted March 1, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, CAS said: I suppose I look at this differently than you, when something was going on that no one could help me with, I either went at it alone (which never worked) or I went to the Lord (which has never failed). But, that is just me. Has nothing to do with whether the Church is legit or not. Knowing that the Church is legit never came to me from other mortals, but I do understand that a lot of people find out that way. Thanks for your replies. I guess I was just naive and going about everything completely wrong. Does anyone teach this stuff at church? Teach people that the church is not going to help you with the hard stuff? or is it just one of those unwritten things you are just supposed to "know"? Edited March 1, 2019 by changed
let’s roll Posted March 1, 2019 Posted March 1, 2019 2 hours ago, changed said: Separate the wheat from the tares - yes, there are issues within the CES letter, but there are also truths within it. There were some very ugly things within the early church - some very ugly things through the entire history of the church, and it does no good to ignore or be silent about it. As I said in another post - if you read the NT - the original apostles made some really big mistakes - and those mistakes are fully acknowledged and recorded in the scriptures for all to see and read. No one tries to hide the mistakes, we all learn from them. example: Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of the heavens. The apostles made a HUGE mistake, trying to keep little kids from coming to Jesus. If I can re-apply that scripture a little? Suffer the Africans to come unto me and forbid them not, allow everyone of all races to come unto me and forbid them not for of such is the kingdom of the heavens. Rather than blaming God for the priesthood ban, or refusing to admit a mistake was made, or refusing to admit racism existed and still exists within the church - rather than putting that mistake out there for everyone to see - when you hide it, belittle it, blame the surrounding society - make excuses for yourself, instead of admitting the mistake? This is very troublesome. Repentance applies to organizations - not just people. If the LDS church could say "we have made mistakes, we are not led by God in all things, no disciples or apostles were ever led by God on all things, we make mistakes just as prophets and apostles of old made mistakes and we are sorry about anything we have done to lead anyone astray, or distance anyone from their Savior and for God. Know that we are only disciples like all of you - we will do our best to lead and guide, but in the end everyone must come to their own individual testimony. 58. 26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward. Now there is a scripture I can get behind. Not only are we not to be commanded in all things - if we run across something that goes against our conscience - members of the LDS church should be free to disagree with some of the things the prophet has taught - we're not supposed to follow Jonah into any boats or into the mouth of a fish. We all agree the LDS church is not perfect - are there any examples - any at all - where the church repents and admits honestly mistakes that have been made? We all agree that the LDS leaders are not pefect - are there any examples - any at all - where leaders admit their mistakes, and advise followers not to follow everything? Advise followers they need to think for themselves? If someone refuses to repent - refuses to come clean - what is your opinion of that person??? no matter how much good they do, if they cannot repent, and repentance is the most important thing there is just about - if they cannot repent, they are not washed clean - running around in soiled garments until they repent... It is not an innocent group of people until repentance happens. Repentance involves being sorry for the mistakes, admitting mistakes, confessing them to all who have been hurt, this is the first step in moving forward. Thanks for your thoughtful analogy. To add one thought. God has instructed us that He is the judge and that we are to forgive all, each and every time, regardless of the sin, regardless of whether or not they’ve repented, and regardless of whether or not they ask for forgiveness. If, as you suggest, repentance applies to organizations as well as people, I trust we have the same mandate from God with respect to those organizations as we have to people, forgive them, each and every time, regardless of the sin, regardless of whether or not they’ve repented, and regardless of whether or not they ask for forgiveness. 1
Calm Posted March 1, 2019 Posted March 1, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, let’s roll said: Thanks for your thoughtful analogy. To add one thought. God has instructed us that He is the judge and that we are to forgive all, each and every time, regardless of the sin, regardless of whether or not they’ve repented, and regardless of whether or not they ask for forgiveness. If, as you suggest, repentance applies to organizations as well as people, I trust we have the same mandate from God with respect to those organizations as we have to people, forgive them, each and every time, regardless of the sin, regardless of whether or not they’ve repented, and regardless of whether or not they ask for forgiveness. I agree with this, just want to be sure this does n't mean imo that we should forget harm done or not act to protect ourselves and others in the future, rather than act as if it never happened. I think "remember no more" will take place when we can know as we are known by God and thus know when someone else has truly repented and forsaking eternally a behaviour. That is not allowed us in this life, imo. Also forgiveness can't be compelled in others through guilt or shaming or whatever. We need to come to it in our own time and way with the help of God. Edited March 1, 2019 by Calm 1
Robert F. Smith Posted March 1, 2019 Posted March 1, 2019 2 hours ago, changed said: ....................... If I can re-apply that scripture a little? Suffer the Africans to come unto me and forbid them not, allow everyone of all races to come unto me and forbid them not for of such is the kingdom of the heavens. Rather than blaming God for the priesthood ban, or refusing to admit a mistake was made, or refusing to admit racism existed and still exists within the church - rather than putting that mistake out there for everyone to see - when you hide it, belittle it, blame the surrounding society - make excuses for yourself, instead of admitting the mistake? This is very troublesome. Blaming God for racial curses and racism has been endemic throughout Western society for quite some time. Most people no longer believe that claptrap, just as they no longer believe that slavery could be justified. Too many have seen the depredations of Adolf Hitler, and the lynchings of the Klan. Millions of bodies later, it appears to have been insane to believe that stuff. It could be that you believe racism still dominates some churches, and you feel free to libel the LDS Church as a currently racist organization. In so saying, I don't see you admitting that Joseph Smith headed a Church which ordained Black men and sent them on missions, that Joseph was strongly opposed to slavery, and that he frankly stated that if a Black man were given the same circumstances as a white man, he would succeed as well as a white man. You are unwilling to admit that Bruce McConkie, in a powerful 1978 address, condemned his and others previous racist beliefs. You are unwilling to quote Pres Uchtdorf's claim in Gen'l Conf that mistakes have been made. You don't quote Pres Hinckley saying "I remind you that no man who makes disparaging remarks concerning those of another race can consider himself a true disciple of Christ." You are not interested in Apostle Orson Pratt's open opposition in the Utah Territorial Legislature to Pres Brigham Young's racist policies. Instead, you actively seek to make the LDS Church look worse than any other church in the matter of racism and slavery -- even though the opposite was the case. 2 hours ago, changed said: Repentance applies to organizations - not just people. If the LDS church could say "we have made mistakes, we are not led by God in all things, no disciples or apostles were ever led by God on all things, we make mistakes just as prophets and apostles of old made mistakes and we are sorry about anything we have done to lead anyone astray, or distance anyone from their Savior and for God. Know that we are only disciples like all of you - we will do our best to lead and guide, but in the end everyone must come to their own individual testimony. 58. 26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward. Now there is a scripture I can get behind. Not only are we not to be commanded in all things - if we run across something that goes against our conscience - members of the LDS church should be free to disagree with some of the things the prophet has taught - we're not supposed to follow Jonah into any boats or into the mouth of a fish. We all agree the LDS church is not perfect - are there any examples - any at all - where the church repents and admits honestly mistakes that have been made? We all agree that the LDS leaders are not pefect - are there any examples - any at all - where leaders admit their mistakes, and advise followers not to follow everything? Advise followers they need to think for themselves? The answer to all of your questions here is "yes," such admissions have been made, and Bro Brigham even called for members to seek for themselves to know whether what he said was true. Those like you who do not read history won't know that, of course, but the sources have been there for you to consult all along. Anger has blinded you to them and has caused you to make many false assumptions. So, instead of presenting an accurate account of LDS history, you have given a hate-filled version of it. 2 hours ago, changed said: If someone refuses to repent - refuses to come clean - what is your opinion of that person??? no matter how much good they do, if they cannot repent, and repentance is the most important thing there is just about - if they cannot repent, they are not washed clean - running around in soiled garments until they repent... It is not an innocent group of people until repentance happens. Repentance involves being sorry for the mistakes, admitting mistakes, confessing them to all who have been hurt, this is the first step in moving forward. Your call to repentance is something we could all take to heart, although it is important to be sure that you have removed the beam from your own eye before demanding that others remove the speck from theirs. Why? Because your vision is obstructed by the beam, and you can't see the speck in the other's eye until you have removed the beam from yours. Your specific failure to get it right on so many of your false accusations against the LDS Church (on charitable giving, racism, fallibility, etc.) tells me that you haven't yet repented yourself. Confessing your errors and setting them right is indeed a good first step. Once you have come clean, only then are you ready to sit in judgment of others. For, as you judge, so shall you be judged. 1
let’s roll Posted March 2, 2019 Posted March 2, 2019 2 hours ago, Calm said: I agree with this, just want to be sure this does n't mean imo that we should forget harm done or not act to protect ourselves and others in the future, rather than act as if it never happened. I think "remember no more" will take place when we can know as we are known by God and thus know when someone else has truly repented and forsaking eternally a behaviour. That is not allowed us in this life, imo. Also forgiveness can't be compelled in others through guilt or shaming or whatever. We need to come to it in our own time and way with the help of God. Hi Calm. My imperfect understanding of the need for us to forgive as I described in my post is that such forgiveness works to remove from our soul the hate, bitterness, and anger that will canker it. I think we can forgive and still take the steps you describe to protect ourselves and others from future harm including remembering the sin to the extent necessary to do so if we take those steps with a pure heart. 2
changed Posted March 2, 2019 Posted March 2, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, let’s roll said: Thanks for your thoughtful analogy. To add one thought. God has instructed us that He is the judge and that we are to forgive all, each and every time, regardless of the sin, regardless of whether or not they’ve repented, and regardless of whether or not they ask for forgiveness. If, as you suggest, repentance applies to organizations as well as people, I trust we have the same mandate from God with respect to those organizations as we have to people, forgive them, each and every time, regardless of the sin, regardless of whether or not they’ve repented, and regardless of whether or not they ask for forgiveness. I agree - consider also though, that forgiveness, and staying active, are two very different things. I have forgiven the person who was abusive to our family - see him as being mentally insane - but I choose not to interact with, or be around him. If the church does not repent - there are many who will see that as being a dangerous institution, and will choose to establish healthy boundaries for themselves. This does not mean they do not forgive - or that they spend the rest of their lives being angry, it just meas they will no longer go to church, or choose to associate with some of the people who go. If the church would choose to be open about issues from history, choose to admit mistakes where mistakes were made, to say the words "I am sorry, I was wrong" - I think that might be an incredible example to everyone of honesty, and being real. I think a few people would consider coming back to church if it was a place of honest and open communication. Edited March 2, 2019 by changed
changed Posted March 2, 2019 Posted March 2, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Blaming God for racial curses and racism has been endemic throughout Western society for quite some time. Most people no longer believe that claptrap, just as they no longer believe that slavery could be justified. Too many have seen the depredations of Adolf Hitler, and the lynchings of the Klan. Millions of bodies later, it appears to have been insane to believe that stuff. It could be that you believe racism still dominates some churches, and you feel free to libel the LDS Church as a currently racist organization. In so saying, I don't see you admitting that Joseph Smith headed a Church which ordained Black men and sent them on missions, that Joseph was strongly opposed to slavery, and that he frankly stated that if a Black man were given the same circumstances as a white man, he would succeed as well as a white man. You are unwilling to admit that Bruce McConkie, in a powerful 1978 address, condemned his and others previous racist beliefs. You are unwilling to quote Pres Uchtdorf's claim in Gen'l Conf that mistakes have been made. You don't quote Pres Hinckley saying "I remind you that no man who makes disparaging remarks concerning those of another race can consider himself a true disciple of Christ." You are not interested in Apostle Orson Pratt's open opposition in the Utah Territorial Legislature to Pres Brigham Young's racist policies. Instead, you actively seek to make the LDS Church look worse than any other church in the matter of racism and slavery -- even though the opposite was the case. The answer to all of your questions here is "yes," such admissions have been made, and Bro Brigham even called for members to seek for themselves to know whether what he said was true. Those like you who do not read history won't know that, of course, but the sources have been there for you to consult all along. Anger has blinded you to them and has caused you to make many false assumptions. So, instead of presenting an accurate account of LDS history, you have given a hate-filled version of it. Your call to repentance is something we could all take to heart, although it is important to be sure that you have removed the beam from your own eye before demanding that others remove the speck from theirs. Why? Because your vision is obstructed by the beam, and you can't see the speck in the other's eye until you have removed the beam from yours. Your specific failure to get it right on so many of your false accusations against the LDS Church (on charitable giving, racism, fallibility, etc.) tells me that you haven't yet repented yourself. Confessing your errors and setting them right is indeed a good first step. Once you have come clean, only then are you ready to sit in judgment of others. For, as you judge, so shall you be judged. Thank you for your replies Robert - do you have links for the above quotes? Yes - the issues of Africans and the priesthood have been talked about, but I have never heard anyone admit it was a mistake - the comments are more along the lines of "we don't understand God always" - kind of blaming God for the ban, rather than blaming prophets for it. I have not heard the words "I am sorry, I was wrong" coming from the church - close, but then at the last minute, there is never an admonition of guilt. I could have just missed it, I work FT - overtime - with kids, I do not have the hours and hours it takes to go through everything, so please provide links if there are genuine full admissions to guilt and complete apologies. I actually have gone through - I will call it Metanoia - am perfectly willing to admit and have gone through, in more detail than anyone cares to hear, my shortcomings. (One of which being confrontational, and course.) Yes, I am trying to become better at a lot of things myself, and am trying to find the best community - open, honest, vulnerable community, to learn and grow from. Edited March 2, 2019 by changed
Robert F. Smith Posted March 2, 2019 Posted March 2, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, changed said: Thank you for your replies Robert - do you have links for the above quotes? Already in 1833, Joseph had revealed D&C 101:79-80, Quote Therefore, it is not right that any man should be in bondage one to another. And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood. Quote Joseph Smith said: "Elder Hyde inquired about the situation of the negro. I replied, they came into the world slaves mentally and physically. Change their situation with the whites, and they would be like them. They have souls, and are subjects of salvation. Go into Cincinnati or any city, and find an educated negro, who rides in his carriage, and you will see a man who has risen by the powers of his own mind to his exalted state of respectability. The slaves in Washington are more refined than many in high places, and the black boys will take the shine off many of those they brush and wait on. Elder Hyde remarked, "Put them on the level, and they will rise above me." I replied, "if I raised you to be my equal, and then attempted to oppress you, would you not be indignant?" History of the Church, V:216. As Wikipedia correctly summarized: Quote From the beginning, black people have been members of Mormon congregations, and Mormon congregations have always been interracial. When the Mormons migrated to Missouri, they encountered the pro-slavery sentiments of their neighbors. Joseph Smith upheld the laws regarding slaves and slaveholders, and affirmed the curse of Ham as placing his descendants into slavery, "to the shame and confusion of all who have cried out against the South." With that being said, Smith still remained abolitionist in his actions and doctrines. After the Mormons were expelled from Missouri, Smith took an increasingly strong anti-slavery position, and a few black men were ordained to the LDS priesthood. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people_and_early_Mormonism . Indeed, Black men were allowed to participate in temple rites in Kirtland, and were allowed to do baptism for the dead in Nauvoo. Moreover, Joseph publicly opposed slavery in his official 1844 Presidential Platform. Bruce McConkie said: Quote There are statements in our literature by the early Brethren which we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things, and people write me letters and say, “You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such?” And all I can say to that is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world. https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r-mcconkie_alike-unto-god-2/ . Quote "I do not know all of the providences of the Lord, but I do know that he permits false doctrine to be taught in and out of the Church and that such teaching is part of the sifting process of mortality. I repeat: Brigham Young erred in some of his statements on the nature and kind of being that God is and as to the position of Adam in the plan of salvation" - Bruce R McConkie, Letter to Eugene England, February 19, 1981, online at http://www.mrm.org/bruce-mcconkies-rebuke-of-eugene-england . Pres. Uchtdorf said at Oct 2013 LDS Conference: Quote Some struggle with unanswered questions about things that have been done or said in the past. We openly acknowledge that in nearly 200 years of Church History, along with an uninterrupted line of inspired, honorable, and divine events, there have been some things said and done that could cause people to question. Sometimes questions arise because we simply don’t have all the information and we just need a bit more patience. When the entire truth is eventually known, things that didn’t make sense to us before will be resolved to our satisfaction. Sometimes there’s a difference of opinion as to what the facts really mean. A question that creates doubt in some, can, after careful investigation, build faith in others. And to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine. I suppose the Church would only be perfect, if it were run by perfect beings. God is perfect and his doctrine is pure. But he works through us, his imperfect children. And imperfect people make mistakes. October 5, 2013, LDS General Conference, Ensign, 43/11 (Nov 2013):22. Quote Yes - the issues of Africans and the priesthood have been talked about, but I have never heard anyone admit it was a mistake - the comments are more along the lines of "we don't understand God always" - kind of blaming God for the ban, rather than blaming prophets for it. I have not heard the words "I am sorry, I was wrong" coming from the church - close, but then at the last minute, there is never an admonition of guilt. I could have just missed it, I work FT - overtime - with kids, I do not have the hours and hours it takes to go through everything, so please provide links if there are genuine full admissions to guilt and complete apologies. Most people are in your same situation: They have a job and a family, and that doesn't leave much time for professional historiography. What they believe and know is often fraught with second hand information, much of it faulty. They do the best they can, but really have no basis for making absolute judgments about what has happened in the past. Reminds me of the horrible McMartin PreSchool case in which the L.A. District Attorney spent years prosecuting a group of innocent people. A huge mistake, and he never even said he was sorry. Quote I actually have gone through - I will call it Metanoia - am perfectly willing to admit and have gone through, in more detail than anyone cares to hear, my shortcomings. (One of which being confrontational, and course.) Yes, I am trying to become better at a lot of things myself, and am trying to find the best community - open, honest, vulnerable community, to learn and grow from. That is commendable, and that is all anyone can ask of you. "To thine own self be true, and it follows as night the day that then thou cans't not be false to any man." Here is an evangelical Presbyterian pastor who publicly repented in Nov 2004 in the Salt Lake Tabernacle: Quote I am now convinced that we evangelicals have often seriously misrepresented the beliefs and practices of the Mormon community. Indeed, let me state it bluntly to the LDS folks here this evening, we have sinned against you. Dr. Richard J. Mouw, President, Fuller Theological Seminary Edited March 2, 2019 by Robert F. Smith
Recommended Posts