Things that Increase or Diminish Faith

[Navidad]

5 hours ago, california boy said:

This survey has some real red flags for me.  Among Mormons, 76% say they attend weekly?  Where are these wards.  I certainly have never seen one.  Does anyone see this kind of activity in their area?  Is there a link back to the PEW institute?  

I find it encouraging that only 57% of all Mormons believe they are the one true faith. There is hope!

[Navidad]

34 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

One of my Jewish Latter-day Saint friends really reinforced this point for me. He repeatedly sang the praises of the faithful Evangelicals who had taught him to first have faith in Jesus Christ. The leap from Judaism to Restoration Christianity was just too great for him, he said. We desperately need other Christian churches to be vibrant and effective -- for many, many reasons!

And many, not all, but many already are!

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 minutes ago, Navidad said:

And many, not all, but many already are!

I'm glad if that's the case where you are. It's not here. According to out latest census (which almost certainly undercounts, as I noted last week), only about 4 per cent of our population affiliates with Christian churches that are not in significant-to-terminal decline.

[Navidad]

12 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I'm glad if that's the case where you are. It's not here. According to out latest census (which almost certainly undercounts, as I noted last week), only about 4 per cent of our population affiliates with Christian churches that are not in significant-to-terminal decline.

How do you define decline? We must define it very differently. I find everywhere churches and wards that are vibrant and alive in their enthusiasm for their faith. What does "significant-to-terminal" decline mean to you? Methinks you are engaged in a bit of bias confirmation? I am talking about enthusiasm, daring, paradigm challengers and changers. I think you must be strictly talking about membership numbers, something I don't really even think about. Shrinking numbers, if that is what you are talking about can really have purifying results. How does one count the enthusiasm for exploring and faith, especially in groups that don't prioritize proselytizing, like mine? 

 

Edited February 25, 2019 by Navidad

[Hamba Tuhan]

38 minutes ago, Navidad said:

How do you define decline? We must define it very differently. I find everywhere churches and wards that are vibrant and alive in their enthusiasm for their faith. What does "significant-to-terminal" decline mean to you?

Terminal decline is a point where, if membership decrease is not reversed, the church will actually cease to exist by a known date ... at which point there is literally no one left in that church to 'express enthusiasm for their faith'. For example, in the five years between our last two censuses, the number of Catholics identifying declined 10.67 per cent. And the number of those claiming membership in our largest Protestant denomination declined 22.22 per cent. Our second-largest Protestant denomination posted a 26 per cent decline! That's all in five years. Unreversed, these declines will result in the extinction of all three churches. This would be less worrying if there seemed to be a movement into more 'vibrant' faith groups, but that's not showing up in the census, where the 'all other Christian' category increased by just over 10 per cent of the Catholic Church's loss. Other named Christian churches are actually all faring even worse. Lutheran identification, for example, dropped 41.67 per cent in the same five years. No named denomination has increased between the two censuses. Those remaining steady are limited to the Latter-day Saints, the Salvation Army, the Adventists, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Pentecostals.

I totally get your point about numbers not equalling enthusiasm (or faith), but vibrant, effective churches for the most part don't lose nearly half of their members in a five-year period. Beyond that, Christian-bashing is only increasing. Literally just this weekend, our 'proudly progressive' government announced that they'll be banning school chaplains from next year. (They're already optional and work at no cost to the school.) Increasingly, people of faith who will disagree with this decision are too scared to complain very loudly. And that includes our Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu and Sikh friends.

Edited February 25, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

You have a rich heritage. You also cite men of very different traditions who exemplify the diversity and richness of non-LDS Christian traditions. Enns has an Anabaptist heritage, Wright an Anglican, and Bowman a Southern Baptist evangelical perspective. I find it sad that you have such a limited view of the richness of the current non-LDS Christian scholarship. The folks you mention are bright, scholarly folks who don't mind challenging the mainstream approach to things. There are many more in every tradition in the non-LDS Christian world. Thanks for sharing. 

I have spent my life being trained by and associated with those non-LDS scholars, have spent time rubbing shoulders with them in archeological digs and in learned symposia, and I have spent much of my time citing them in research that I have done.  They are indeed good, selfless, very smart people, but most of them are hamstrung by theological tenets which are both alien to the Bible and to logic.  Some of them acknowledge this and are searching for a better way within secular interpretative canons or paradigms.  I admire all of them and sympathize with their existential dilemma.  I do not enjoy witnessing the Judeo-Christian death spiral, but I do understand the inevitability of it.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I really don't want this to be true in any way!

I have a good Catholic friend whom I admire immensely. He's good and kind and deep and clever. He also, I suspect, would agree with you. He has told me that, from his perspective, Christianity is dying. He's already trying to determine what his personal role should be in this context. He has told me on more than one occasion that he's the only person who regularly attends his parish who is under the age of 60 and one of the few males. He rejects all Latter-day Saint truth claims outright but envies the fact that we are still, in his words, 'spiritually alive'.

(The most spiritually alive he's ever met, he claims. One evening, he said the Elders and I should visit the parish to teach the people there how to be spiritually alive. I told him we could do that, but it would just result in everyone becoming Saints.)

I don't think this is a good situation for the world at large or for us Latter-day Saints in particular. For all of Restoration history, we have parasitised other Christian churches, relying on them to teach the basics before we could 'add anything to it', and especially to help create Christian or at least free pluralist societies, where Christian values are at least familiar and where laws allow us to exist and to preach. It's going to be a new thing for us if we have to start going it alone.

Some of my close relatives spent their lives teaching normative Christianity to alien cultures (in Japan, Korea, and China, for example), and LDS missionaries are currently working in countries where no form of Christianity is much appreciated (India, for example).  Is the Gospel of Jesus Christ culture-bound, or is it universal?  Only time will tell whether the LDS message is more or less acceptable in such alien environments.   It is currently going great guns in the African bush.

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, california boy said:

This survey has some real red flags for me.  Among Mormons, 76% say they attend weekly?  Where are these wards.  I certainly have never seen one.  Does anyone see this kind of activity in their area?  ....................

I live in just such a ward in Provo, Utah, but I admit that it may be quite unusual.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

I find it encouraging that only 57% of all Mormons believe they are the one true faith. There is hope!

Part of that may be due to Joseph Smith's constant reiteration that we should take truth from whatever source, that the LDS do not have all truth, and that the Jews represent another true faith (with a somewhat different eschatology).

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

LDS missionaries are currently working in countries where no form of Christianity is much appreciated (India, for example).

I know this, but I remain convinced that much of this is owing to earlier European colonialism/contact and the work of prior churches/missionaries.

Quote

Is the Gospel of Jesus Christ culture-bound, or is it universal?

Absolutely universal, but we're going to have to lift our game significantly if we're going to do the work largely alone.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 2/22/2019 at 6:18 AM, changed said:

It is the type of volunteer work, not the hours.  I do not consider proselytizing to be volunteer work for example.  How many half-way homes, women's shelters, and soup kitchens does the LDS church own and operate for example?  How many drug rehab clinics does it own and operate?  I have seen homeless people come to church, and get turned away with nothing to offer them.  Tithing is not spent on poor people, it is spent on church buildings - and even that - it is confusing how one could spend say https://www.gymmembershipfees.com/ymca-prices/ $25 per person for YMCA membership - and somehow the YMCA is able to maintain buildings and exercise equip, provide classes by professionals, provide 24/7 service (not just once a week service)... and yet what does the LDS church do with 10%?  The YMCA does so much more with their $25 than Mormons do with their 10%.  

I make this comparison because the YMCA is a place you can send homeless people too.  A homeless person can get a shower, a place to stay, and a job at the YMCA - they are has youth intervention services etc. etc. all for the low low price of $25/month you support a good cause and you get access to exercise equip and classes.  http://ymcacolumbus.org/housing  Does the Mormon church offer housing and supportive services - they get a lot more $ from their members, so what are they doing with it exactly?

The vast majority of the "service" and "volunteer" work within the Mormon church is given only to Mormons - and only to Mormons in good standing.  Mormons are really good at serving themselves and calling it noble.

And you know all this how?  What sources did you consult?

According to that report, in addition to huge amounts of tithing, fast offerings, and humanitarian aid contributions to the Church, individual LDS members give on average "$1,171 a year outside the church."  Why would those horrible Mormon jackals and evil wild dog LDS do that?  Is that what you call "serving themselves and calling it noble"?

When LDS doctors and nurses show up twice weekly at 5pm at the Free Clinic in Provo (in a govt clinic bldg used daily, 9-5), they get zero compensation, and there are two older non-proselyting LDS missionaries there to translate Spanish to English.  That just has to be false, right?  When wards conduct blood drives, or food drives to help the local non-LDS Food Bank, that is all a sham, right?  When the LDS Church provides millions of dollars to Catholic Relief in parts of Africa where there is no LDS distribution network, that is just a trick, right?  When non-proselyting LDS experts provide water wells in drought-stricken areas, or a job-finding service for anyone in Georgia, its all just a lie, right?

When LDS volunteers harvest the raisins in Southern California, there just has to be an under the table deal going on, right?  They don't really give those raisins away free with a bishop's food order, right?  And the Bishops Storehouses that give away free food are operated by highly paid missionaries and volunteers, right?  And those huge ranches owned by the LDS Church, they don't really provide free beef to the needy, do they?

And all that phony baloney talk about LDS humanitarian aid during worldwide disasters just cannot be true, right?  Mormons don't really care about others, do they?

And locally, talk of LDS recently donating huge sums ($400,000) to homeless shelters must be false, right?   https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900047417/a-latter-day-saint-foundation-donates-dollar400000-to-utah-womens-shelter.html .

Absurd even to imagine the LDS Church contributing $10 million "to the nonprofit Shelter the Homeless organization, which has been coordinating assistance to Salt Lake City’s transient population for three decades," right?   https://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/11/02/mormon-church-donates-10-million-to-help-house-salt-lake-citys-homeless-needy/ .

On the same level as the astonishing claim that, during the most recent decade, the LDS Church has donated "more than $42 million in commodities and cash 'to eight community and religious organizations that serve the homeless in Salt Lake City'," right?  https://kutv.com/news/local/lds-first-presidency-releases-statement-on-utah-homeless . 

And it can't possibly be true that the LDS Church donated $25,000 to Affirmation (the LGBTQ organization), right?   https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/07/10/mormon-church-makes/ .

Same applies to my Southern California bishop's request for me to prepare a summary of local welfare sources, so that he could better serve people (members and non-members) who came to him in need, right?  I have sent that summary to you in the Personal Messaging herewith, even though it must be transparent falsehood, right?

So, when a Mormon like me donates annually to the Union Rescue Mission in Los Angeles, or to my local non-profit radio station, it just doesn't count, right?

It must be the case that Mormons just talk about the Gospel of Jesus Christ, right?  It doesn't really matter to them, does it?

For more factual nonsense, see my “LDS Church Welfare Expenditures,” 2012, online at http://www.scribd.com/doc/107498713/LDS-Church-Welfare-Expenditures .

Edited February 27, 2019 by Robert F. Smith

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

For more factual nonsense, see my “LDS Church Welfare Expenditures,” 2012, online at http://www.scribd.com/doc/107498713/LDS-Church-Welfare-Expenditures .

Which of course doesn't even touch on individual actions. I can't even tabulate how many hours members in my ward would spend each week in attempts to alleviate suffering. Or the tens of thousands of dollars that don't even pass through the Church structure.

[changed]

On 2/26/2019 at 8:51 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

And you know all this how?  What sources did you consult?

 

 

The LDS church donates to other established charity organizations - Catholics etc. actually run the half-way homes etc.  Again, list something that the Mormons actually run themselves - Link to a women's shelter that the Mormon church owns, runs, and operates 24/7.  (Not just donates to, but actually owns and operates).  Let's see a homeless shelter that is owned and operated by the Mormon church.  

Things that diminish faith - in my location, other organizations are much more involved in charity work.

Edited February 28, 2019 by changed

[CAS]

14 hours ago, changed said:

 

The LDS church donates to other established charity organizations - Catholics etc. actually run the half-way homes etc.  Again, list something that the Mormons actually run themselves - Link to a women's shelter that the Mormon church owns, runs, and operates 24/7.  (Not just donates to, but actually owns and operates).  Let's see a homeless shelter that is owned and operated by the Mormon church.  

Things that diminish faith - in my location, other organizations are much more involved in charity work.

Why is owning and operating it more important than making certain it does not fail? How does that diminish faith, for me it increases my faith. Are you aware that there is a lot being done by people who refuse to have others find out about it? Just go out of your way to do something helpful and keep it to yourself and I think you will see this issue differently.

[let’s roll]

15 hours ago, changed said:

 

The LDS church donates to other established charity organizations - Catholics etc. actually run the half-way homes etc.  Again, list something that the Mormons actually run themselves - Link to a women's shelter that the Mormon church owns, runs, and operates 24/7.  (Not just donates to, but actually owns and operates).  Let's see a homeless shelter that is owned and operated by the Mormon church.  

Things that diminish faith - in my location, other organizations are much more involved in charity work.

Does your calculation of time spent in charity work include time spent by members in their ecclesiastical responsibilities? 

What’s your perception on how that time compares to time spent on those endeavors by other faiths in your area?

Does your calculation include time spent by full-time missionaries?

what’s your perception on how that time compares to time spent on those endeavors by other faiths in your area?

l’d invite you to consider what the Savior said about the worth of souls in determining the value of such endeavors and whether you consider them on par with, or even more important than, what you might characterize as “charity work.”

I trust we could all be more anxiously engaged in good works, and as we strive to do so suggest that assisting others in finding the rest promised by the Savior will in most cases be the most valuable work we can do.

[Robert F. Smith]

16 hours ago, changed said:

The LDS church donates to other established charity organizations - Catholics etc. actually run the half-way homes etc.  Again, list something that the Mormons actually run themselves - Link to a women's shelter that the Mormon church owns, runs, and operates 24/7.  (Not just donates to, but actually owns and operates).  Let's see a homeless shelter that is owned and operated by the Mormon church.  

Things that diminish faith - in my location, other organizations are much more involved in charity work.

False.  For many  years, as I have repeatedly shown on this board, the LDS Church makes much greater per capita contributions to regular humanitarian causes than any other religious group.  In many cases, where other religious or private organizations exist and have an already existing distribution network, the LDS Church does not hesitate to donate large sums (and commodities) to them.  When I mentioned the eight non-LDS organizations which aid the homeless and the needy in SLC, and which regularly receive many millions of dollars from the LDS Church, you respond in anger, as though there is something wrong with the LDS Church helping others, even though they are not LDS.  Yet the other day, in your response, you complained that the LDS Church only helped others in a crass effort to obtain converts.  Yet that has just not been true.

Another selfless instance of aid to a needy non-LDS organization, was the leadership of Pres Nathan Eldon Tanner in obtaining LDS contributions to save Westminster College in SLC when it had fallen on hard times back in the 1970s.  Why would LDS people, led by a member of the LDS First Presidency, reach out to aid a Presbyterian college which had historically been anti-LDS?  Do you even recognize Christ-like behavior when you see it?

Unless I misunderstand you, you have made it clear that your faith is diminished by anything the LDS Church does to help the needy, and that you will change the goal posts whenever convenient to obtain your predetermined result.  Is that Christlike behavior?

[changed]

5 hours ago, CAS said:

Why is owning and operating it more important than making certain it does not fail? How does that diminish faith, for me it increases my faith. Are you aware that there is a lot being done by people who refuse to have others find out about it? Just go out of your way to do something helpful and keep it to yourself and I think you will see this issue differently.

collaborations are wonderful things, but I give credit to those who own and operate the venture.  If I am going to choose an organization to belong to, it would be the organization who owns and runs charity ventures, not those who simply donate to it.  

 

5 hours ago, let’s roll said:

Does your calculation of time spent in charity work include time spent by members in their ecclesiastical responsibilities?   No - that is serving oneself, not really serving others.

What’s your perception on how that time compares to time spent on those endeavors by other faiths in your area? I work with other faiths, as well as secular organizations in my area. Catholics do the most, followed by educational institutions. 

Does your calculation include time spent by full-time missionaries? - I do not consider proselyting missions to be charity.  

what’s your perception on how that time compares to time spent on those endeavors by other faiths in your area?  While going through a few natural disasters in our area, other religious groups allowed their church buildings to be used to house people, goods, and launch re-building efforts.  The LDS church did not allow any of its buildings to be used for shelter, or storage, or for anyone outside of the LDS faith.  They had meetings, and did some volunteer work, but it did not compare to the other churches in the neighborhood.  

l’d invite you to consider what the Savior said about the worth of souls in determining the value of such endeavors and whether you consider them on par with, or even more important than, what you might characterize as “charity work.”

I trust we could all be more anxiously engaged in good works, and as we strive to do so suggest that assisting others in finding the rest promised by the Savior will in most cases be the most valuable work we can do.

As well as the comments in italics above - I will say this about bringing people to Christ.  Last Sunday we had a talk on missionary work, in which the percentage of inactive saints in our ward was discussed.  Thing is, right before the meeting, I was at Starbucks meeting with a group of inactives.  I asked one family who had recently left if anyone had talked with them - the answer was no.  No one reached out to them, no one called them - this was a really really active family - who has now not been to church sense December.  We have formed our own support group for one another, because there was no support, and no discussion from anyone in the church.  This is after I asked - I asked for a faith support group - and was told no, that the regularly scheduled church meetings would be good.

When it comes to real questions, there is a dis-fellowship of sorts that happens.  

Real missionaries are not afraid of difficult questions - and do not ex-communicate (officially or unofficially) those who ask harder questions.  

The missionaries came into RS - they handed out a piece of paper "How to share the gospel" - and the entire list was nothing but how to preach - teach, testify, invite - and no where on there was the word "listen".  LDS teaching is one-way, from them to you, with nothing in return.  No answers to real questions.  No listening to what you are really struggling with.  Childish primary answers.  

Jesus listened to his critics.  He answered their questions.  He ate dinner with sinners and publicans - I am not seeing this in the LDS church.  The 50+% of the ward that is inactive because hard questions are not being addressed and answered?  It is a joke - to listen to the sacrament meeting talk, and then - knowing the inactives - knowing no one reached out to talk with them - knowing everyone turned their nose up at the hard issues, and would rather believe they left because they were "sinners" than to believe they left because they had concerns about church history, about racism, about gender roles, and polygamy, and everything else - want a list of what causes people to lose faith?  read the CES letter - read "Letter to my wife". That is why so very many people leave.  

 

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

False.  For many  years, as I have repeatedly shown on this board, the LDS Church makes much greater per capita contributions to regular humanitarian causes than any other religious group.  In many cases, where other religious or private organizations exist and have an already existing distribution network, the LDS Church does not hesitate to donate large sums (and commodities) to them.  When I mentioned the eight non-LDS organizations which aid the homeless and the needy in SLC, and which regularly receive many millions of dollars from the LDS Church, you respond in anger, as though there is something wrong with the LDS Church helping others, even though they are not LDS.  Yet the other day, in your response, you complained that the LDS Church only helped others in a crass effort to obtain converts.  Yet that has just not been true.

Another selfless instance of aid to a needy non-LDS organization, was the leadership of Pres Nathan Eldon Tanner in obtaining LDS contributions to save Westminster College in SLC when it had fallen on hard times back in the 1970s.  Why would LDS people, led by a member of the LDS First Presidency, reach out to aid a Presbyterian college which had historically been anti-LDS?  Do you even recognize Christ-like behavior when you see it?

Unless I misunderstand you, you have made it clear that your faith is diminished by anything the LDS Church does to help the needy, and that you will change the goal posts whenever convenient to obtain your predetermined result.  Is that Christlike behavior?

Google "Who are the most charitable organizations in the world" and you will get lists like: https://topyaps.com/top-10-charitable-organizations-in-the-world/ 

The LDS church did not come up in any of my searches with the above.  

 

Edited March 1, 2019 by changed

[changed]

 

Things that increase faith - faith in what?

Here is my list of things that increase my faith in God (not in church, in God)

• Seeing that everyone through the world, regardless of creed or color, hold to basically the same beliefs when it comes to serving others, loving one another, learning, working, being honest etc. Diversity and freedom of beliefs mixed with everyone coming to the same conclusions on the important things in life, this increases my faith that God loves everyone (not one gorup or another)etc.  http://www.scifiwright.com/2013/02/illustrations-of-the-tao/
• Nature - nature increases my faith in God.
• My own free will and choice - knowing we believe what we want to believe, I like the idea of believing in an all-loving God (although not necessarily an all-powerful one).  

 

Increase faith in a church - in a religious organization:

I don't think anyone is supposed to have faith in any organization or group.  If it is a political group, or religious group, or sports group - or I don't care what kind of a group - I am impressed if the group is able to handle diversity, allows freedom of speech and freedom of inquiry.  I respects groups who hold everyone in the group as equals, that show respect concern and understanding for one another.  Groups who are honest - open - vulnerable with one another - supportive - that do not require anyone to be perfect, take everyone as they are, and respect everyone enough to know preaching is not needed.

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

10 minutes ago, changed said:

He ate dinner with sinners and publicans - I am not seeing this in the LDS church.

You clearly aren't doing a very good job of spying on me, then. This is precisely what our stake president and I did last night: we ate dinner with an inactive family. It was delicious: noodles and vegetables seasoned heavily with habanero chillies and fermented crayfish paste. We listened, we shared, and we left with warm hugs and a request that we please return soon.

It was already after 9:00 at that point, but we next went to the hospital to visit another inactive family, who are sitting vigil at the bedside of an elderly family member who had a massive stroke just over two weeks ago. The non-members in that room outnumbered the members, and pretty much everyone reeked of tobacco smoke, but we hugged and talked and listened for nearly an hour.

I don't know if people in your corner of the Church really don't take their ministering responsibilities seriously, or if you just don't see accurately what's happening. All I know is that your repeated descriptions sound completely alien to me.

[let’s roll]

12 minutes ago, changed said:

collaborations are wonderful things, but I give credit to those who own and operate the venture.  If I am going to choose an organization to belong to, it would be the organization who owns and runs charity ventures, not those who simply donate to it.  

 

As well as the comments in italics above - I will say this about bringing people to Christ.  Last Sunday we had a talk on missionary work, in which the percentage of inactive saints in our ward was discussed.  Thing is, right before the meeting, I was at Starbucks meeting with a group of inactives.  I asked one family who had recently left if anyone had talked with them - the answer was no.  No one reached out to them, no one called them - this was a really really active family - who has now not been to church sense December.  We have formed our own support group for one another, because there was no support, and no discussion from anyone in the church.  This is after I asked - I asked for a faith support group - and was told no, that the regularly scheduled church meetings would be good.

When it comes to real questions, there is a dis-fellowship of sorts that happens.  

Real missionaries are not afraid of difficult questions - and do not ex-communicate (officially or unofficially) those who ask harder questions.  

The missionaries came into RS - they handed out a piece of paper "How to share the gospel" - and the entire list was nothing but how to preach - teach, testify, invite - and no where on there was the word "listen".  LDS teaching is one-way, from them to you, with nothing in return.  No answers to real questions.  No listening to what you are really struggling with.  Childish primary answers.  

Jesus listened to his critics.  He answered their questions.  He ate dinner with sinners and publicans - I am not seeing this in the LDS church.  The 50+% of the ward that is inactive because hard questions are not being addressed and answered?  It is a joke - to listen to the sacrament meeting talk, and then - knowing the inactives - knowing no one reached out to talk with them - knowing everyone turned their nose up at the hard issues, and would rather believe they left because they were "sinners" than to believe they left because they had concerns about church history, about racism, about gender roles, and polygamy, and everything else - want a list of what causes people to lose faith?  read the CES letter - read "Letter to my wife". That is why so very many people leave.  

 

Google "Who are the most charitable organizations in the world" and you will get lists like: https://topyaps.com/top-10-charitable-organizations-in-the-world/ 

The LDS church did not come up in any of my searches with the above.  

 

Thank you for you thoughtful response Changed.  And thank you for your labor with those who have questions and doubts.

In those labors, what have folks told you regarding what God has told them they should do—that is, how are they being led by God to act upon their righteous desires?

Or have you found that those with doubts also doubt either their ability to receive guidance from God or doubt that God is willing to reveal His will to them, or both?  If so, what counsel have you chosen to share with them.

 

[changed]

5 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

You clearly aren't doing a very good job of spying on me, then. This is precisely what our stake president and I did last night: we ate dinner with an inactive family. It was delicious: noodles and vegetables seasoned heavily with habanero chillies and fermented crayfish paste. We listened, we shared, and we left with warm hugs and a request that we please return soon.

It was already after 9:00 at that point, but we next went to the hospital to visit another inactive family, who are sitting vigil at the bedside of an elderly family member who had a massive stroke just over two weeks ago. The non-members in that room outnumbered the members, and pretty much everyone reeked of tobacco smoke, but we hugged and talked and listened for nearly an hour.

I don't know if people in your corner of the Church really don't take their ministering responsibilities seriously, or if you just don't see accurately what's happening. All I know is that your repeated descriptions sound completely alien to me.

 

Perhaps it is different in other parts of the world, but the inactive support group I am in is comprised of only inactives - we are shunned, blacklisted as you will, given the cold shoulder for "losing our testimony".  

A rose by any other name... call us "inactive" or call us "ex-mo's".  Inactive members = ex-mormon members... and I do not see anyone in our stake reaching out to ex-mos.  

Edited March 1, 2019 by changed

[changed]

9 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Thank you for you thoughtful response Changed.  And thank you for your labor with those who have questions and doubts.

In those labors, what have folks told you regarding what God has told them they should do—that is, how are they being led by God to act upon their righteous desires?

Or have you found that those with doubts also doubt either their ability to receive guidance from God or doubt that God is willing to reveal His will to them, or both?  If so, what counsel have you chosen to share with them.

 

I am one of them - I am one who has questions and doubts, so I hang with the ex-mos, and I also attend church as a non-literal secular participant, not as a believer (I attend due to the mixed-faith family I am in).  

I am still a spiritual person, but am now more of a Unitarian - my new beliefs are recognizing the value in community within the early stages of faith development, but then the need for individualized testimonies and growth in later years.  I believe all religious organizations are good enough to take their followers the first few steps, and imperfect enough to force all followers to then take an independent and individual journey with God.  

I respect everyone's chosen path, but do encourage those who are inactive to at least hold on to some piece of spirituality within their lives.  

The lesson of Judas - what can we learn from the apostle Judas?  We learn not to trust even apostles - Mathew 17:16 I brought him to Your disciples, but they could not heal him.... what was the point of disciples not healing him?  To force him to go directly to the Savior - which is what everyone I think should be doing.  No middle man.  No relying on any arms of flesh - not even the arms of disciples - by the end, we are all supposed to ditch religious affiliations, and find our own very personal faith... This is the new idea that is now working for me.  I no longer am upset that everyone goes to different religious meetings, no longer worried about anyone's salvation, no longer worried that anything is unfair - see it all as it is supposed to be.  

Edited March 1, 2019 by changed

[nuclearfuels]

On 2/20/2019 at 4:29 PM, CAS said:

I am curious if people believe there is an actual relationship between faith and:

1. Education, does it strengthen or weaken faith?

2. Types of callings, does being a Teacher help one be more faithful than say a Family History Consultant? Are there callings that appear to be more likely to increase a person’s faith? What are those callings?

3. Family background, persons from a strong by the book family - do they tend to have more success rearing faithful children and being faithful members themselves?

4. Those who claim to have felt the Holy Ghost, do they tend to have stronger faith?

5. Regular daily scripture study, does this help make a person more likely to be faithful?

 

What do I mean by faithful?

I would like this to be understood as a person who is less likely to criticize Church leadership, more likely to attend all meetings, more likely to hold a temple recommend, less likely to be inactive or less-active, more likely to hold a calling and that they are talented at their calling, etcetera.

This is not meant to demean anyone or to be taken negatively toward anyone, for anyone reason. If there are other categories that appear to strengthen faithfulness please add to this list. I would very much like this to not turn into a battering over words and terminologies as I would like this to actually be a faith promoting discussion and to be clear I am not so much looking for things that diminish faith but do welcome input along those lines.

This is my first post on this forum, I am hoping to be able to learn something here from your experiences and your opinions. If you have professional studies you recommend please provide a link if there is one and if not please be concise in your explanation, since what I am looking for is what you THINK. If there is already an exact post on this line of thought (I looked and could not find one) please provide the title so that I can look it up. Thank you.

1. Education, in my experience (social sci, poli sci) my faith has increased by learning the ludicrous acts of politicians (all types, all sides), and their philosophies.  THe wordl changes men from the outside in; the Savior changes men from the inside out.

2. Serving in youth callings for many years helped me understand what I missed by never attending mutual and scouts and such. Learning about the destiny of the Millenial Generation also inspired and edified me; made me want to serve more, do a better job

3.  Both my parents are converts - both have emotional and chemical imbalances and challenges. Divorced when I was very young; remarried to a train-wreck...honestly, without the gospel in my life as a child, I'd justify my apostasy with ever so clever sophistry as many have attempted to do

4. I can't deny having felt the Holy Spirit many times and it has strengthened my faith. I dont' dare say my faith is unshakable as I have no interest in prayign for spiritual mountains to climb, after other challenges I've already faced and survived with Jesus helping me every step 

5. Yes but I find if I'm in the later chapters of Mosiah and the middle chapters of Alma, reading each chapter from the last verse to the first helps me learn more.  Ther are also days when reading one verse, or one word, and studinying, pondering on that are sufficent to help me CTR....that day at least.

On 2/20/2019 at 4:39 PM, Tacenda said:

As a single young adult and inactive, a short stint, I was called to team teach primary. It lead me to being active again and marrying in the temple eventually. So having callings can certainly elevate a person's faith. 🙂

When my faith has been challenged the most, I've actively sought out Primary callings.

The music, the Spirit, and the innocence of the children bring a Spirit that is, to me, close to that level of the Spirit that's in the Temple

[Hamba Tuhan]

19 minutes ago, changed said:

The inactive support group I am in is comprised of only inactives - we are shunned, blacklisted as you will, given the cold shoulder for "losing our testimony".  

I only have your posts in this forum to go off of, but I'm assuming your realise that you sound very angry, accusatory and judgemental in many of them? Do you think it's possible that you've scared other members away? I personally like the 'challenge' of a disaffected member, but I can understand why others might not ... especially when we all have to pick and choose whom to minister to in our limited time. Just a thought. 

[let’s roll]

14 minutes ago, changed said:

I am one of them - I am one who has questions and doubts, so I hang with the ex-mos, and I also attend church as a non-literal secular participant, not as a believer (I attend due to the mixed-faith family I am in).  

I am still a spiritual person, but am now more of a Unitarian - my new beliefs are recognizing the value in community within the early stages of faith development, but then the need for individualized testimonies and growth in later years.  I believe all religious organizations are good enough to take their followers the first few steps, and imperfect enough to force all followers to then take an independent and individual journey with God.  

I respect everyone's chosen path, but do encourage those who are inactive to at least hold on to some piece of spirituality within their lives.  

The lesson of Judas - what can we learn from the apostle Judas?  We learn not to trust even apostles - Mathew 17:16 I brought him to Your disciples, but they could not heal him.... what was the point of disciples not healing him?  To force him to go directly to the Savior - which is what everyone I think should be doing.  No middle man.  No relying on any arms of flesh - not even the arms of disciples - by the end, we are all supposed to ditch religious affiliations, and find our own very personal faith... This is the new idea that is now working for me.  I no longer am upset that everyone goes to different religious meetings, no longer worried about anyone's salvation, no longer worried that anything is unfair - see it all as it is supposed to be.  

Thank you for your openness and for sharing.

To reciprocate, let me say I’ve never believed I’ve needed, nor have I wanted, an intermediary between me and God or me and the Savior. 

I took God at His word that He would share wisdom with me each time I was sincere in asking for it, and also took the Savior at His word when He offered me rest if I came to Him.

Pride, doubt and fear have sometimes hampered my efforts at Divine communion, but when my trust and faith have come to the forefront, I’ve found that God and Christ have, without fail, kept their promises.

I wish you Godspeed in the journey you described.