Things that Increase or Diminish Faith

[Calm]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Thanks and I’ve edited my post. It is immaterial to the point I was trying to make anyway. In order to determine what effect education has on faith, you need to do a lot more than ask self reported Latter-day Saints. You would need to do a much larger controlled study that includes those who no longer identify as LDS. 

I think an up to date longitudinal study of children of record LDS from various economic, cultural, and educational families as well as older converts to see if there are economic or education changes over a lifetime in ways different than the general public would be fascinating to me (I would assume there are differences based on the high value we place on both education and self sufficiency---thinking of the Perpetual Education Fund which combines both into one project; however, it often appears to be more academic study until one has a decent career outlook and then switching to more personal religious study in emphasis...at least to me).  And I think I have read one that does measures changes over time, but if so, can't remember anything more than a vague "didn't I read that somewhere" and it was probably long enough ago it might be out of date given how the internet has changed educational opportunities.  There are studies that show higher rates of retention among more committed families which would seem likely to interact with higher education rates among more committed families, but I am not sure how they have been combined or if they have.  I have not so long ago  read summaries of the many Pew studies as well as others, but memory is vague on connections, if any made (man, I hope my brain wakes up in spring or I am going to have to start spending more time on rereading things that should be automatic by now).  I rely too much on the board to keep my brain going, make it exercise, lol.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

The (***edit: unsourced) survey on faith crisis (****edit: that may have been presented to the church leadership) indicated that it affects those with significantly more education than the average member. Does this mean that education decreases faith or could something else be going on here?

https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/documents/faith_crisis_study/Faith_Crisis_Report_R24B.pdf

Calm suggested that the source of that report was not part of LDS Church leadership, and I cannot tell whether it is based on standard social science survey techniques.  I would like to see verification of its conclusions, and some discussion as to why it differs so markedly from the non-Mormon Pew research.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

 

Quote

20 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

But shouldn't all those well-educated guys be more likely to be atheists?  What is it about the LDS community, religion, culture, etc., which finds a confluence of faith and intellect?  Is LDS theology more coherent than other theologies?  Is it that the Mormon community is a kind of ethnicity or way of life?  What is the secret ingredient(s)?

The atheists wouldn’t identify as Mormon would they? So how would you know? I am a college educated ex-Mormon atheist, who went from being fully in (per survey questions) to fully out in a matter of a couple of month. Mormonism doesn’t allow a lot of middle ground when approached in an intellectual way. What makes you think the survey indicates education strengthening faith vs education making people either fully commit or fully leave (and hence not show up among self identifying Mormons in the survey). 

I was asking a series of questions there, and you responded as though I had not.  The accepted wisdom in modern times is that better-educated people tend to become atheists.  Perhaps the secularization of Europe is a case in point, with North America merely a latecomer to that phenomenon.  Do you disagree?

I consider you quite wrong to suggest that "Mormonism doesn’t allow a lot of middle ground when approached in an intellectual way."  I consider exactly the opposite to be true, and Mark Bukowsli (on this board) shares my view.  That does not mean that we are correct.  Perhaps we are deluded.  But each of us can give solid intellectual reasons why LDS theology is coherent and very resilient -- something untrue of normative Judeo-Christian theology.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Robert F. Smith

[CAS]

5 hours ago, Navidad said:

Welcome to the forum. Are you interested in knowing what makes people faithful to their faith group in general, or only what makes LDS Christians faithful to their faith? I don't want to chime in with my thoughts about why I am faithful to my faith, if that is not your intent.

Your thoughts about why you are faithful to your faith would be of interest to me.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

On 2/22/2019 at 12:22 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

But shouldn't all those well-educated guys be more likely to be atheists?

You have provided zero evidence either way on what impact a college education has on Mormons. Of those people that stay LDS, and identify as such, educated saints are very faithful. How many educated Saints lose their faith and no longer identify as Mormons? 

an equally valid interpretation of the data could be that educated Mormons who no longer participate are much less likely to identify as Mormon than say lapsed Catholics. Am I wrong?

The only way to tell would be to study LDS over time and see what impact education levels have while controlling for other variables. Then compare to other religious groups. 

Quote

  What is it about the LDS community, religion, culture, etc., which finds a confluence of faith and intellect? 

You’ve provided zero evidence that there is such a confluence. 

Quote

Is LDS theology more coherent than other theologies?  Is it that the Mormon community is a kind of ethnicity or way of life?  What is the secret ingredient(s)?

See above. 

Edited February 23, 2019 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

You have provided zero evidence either way on what impact a college education has on Mormons. Of those people that stay LDS, and identify as such, educated saints are very faithful. How many educated Saints lose their faith and no longer identify as Mormons? 

an equally valid interpretation of the data could be that educated Mormons who no longer participate are much less likely to identify as Mormon than say lapsed Catholics. Am I wrong?

The only way to tell would be to study LDS over time and see what impact education levels have while controlling for other variables. Then compare to other religious groups. 

You’ve provided zero evidence that there is such a confluence. ..............

https://www.reddit.com/r/latterdaysaints/comments/4bnont/as_mormons_become_more_educated_they_become_more/ .

You're free to reject non-Mormon Pew research conclusions (avoidance response?), and I am still asking why these characteristics obtain among Mormons and not among other religious groups.  Any substantive ideas?

 .

[SeekingUnderstanding]

45 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

https://www.reddit.com/r/latterdaysaints/comments/4bnont/as_mormons_become_more_educated_they_become_more/ .

You're free to reject non-Mormon Pew research conclusions (avoidance response?),

I’m completely on board with the pew data. In your world do two variables that are correlated always exist in a simple causative relationship? That is you believe correlation equals causation? That’s your argument? Really?

Quote

and I am still asking why these characteristics obtain among Mormons and not among other religious groups.  Any substantive ideas?

 .

That’s easy. People don’t want to associate with a religion that is seen as fundamentalist by their peers unless they were all in. The more education one has, the more likely ones peers view Mormonism as fundamentalist (the data bears this out with much lower commitment levels among mainline Protestants and Catholics than say evangelicals). Hence only fully committed Mormons show up in the survey. Can I prove it? No. It is simply one valid explanation of the data, but I’m not the one making a positive assertion, you are. Hence you bear the burden of proof. 

[Robert F. Smith]

15 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I’m completely on board with the pew data. In your world do two variables that are correlated always exist in a simple causative relationship? That is you believe correlation equals causation? That’s your argument? Really?

I asked for substantive ideas, and you provided one.  I did not claim the fallacy of post hoc, ergo propter hoc.  Of course correlation is not causation, although many an anti-Mormon lives and thrives on that false notion.

Quote

That’s easy. People don’t want to associate with a religion that is seen as fundamentalist by their peers unless they were all in. The more education one has, the more likely ones peers view Mormonism as fundamentalist (the data bears this out with much lower commitment levels among mainline Protestants and Catholics than say evangelicals). Hence only fully committed Mormons show up in the survey. Can I prove it? No. It is simply one valid explanation of the data, but I’m not the one making a positive assertion, you are. Hence you bear the burden of proof. 

On the contrary.  I have been asking why the data exist.  And, by the way, there is a plethora of other data which call into serious question your own speculative rationale here:

For example, some years ago two evangelical scholars took a close look at Mormon scholarship in defense of the faith, finding that the Mormons had been extraordinarily astute in every area.  They claimed that their fellow evangelicals had lost the battle.  Owen & Mosser in http://www.academia.edu/185247/_Mormon_Scholarship_Apologetics_and_Evangelical_Neglect_Losing_the_Battle_and_Not_Knowing_It_ .

Non-Mormon scholar Stephen Webb 

Quote

"used to think of Mormonism as little more than an exotic and abnormal addition to Christianity. When I taught Mormon history to my students, I emphasized its remarkable spirit of endurance, its organizational savvy, and the sheer scope of its religious imagination. Yet I regret to say that I did not try to hide my condescension.

"I have come to repent of this view, and not just because I came to my senses about how wrong it is to be rude toward somebody else’s faith. I changed my mind because I came to realize just how deeply Christ-centered Mormonism is. Mormonism is more than Christianity, of course—most obviously by adding the Book of Mormon to the Bible—and that makes it much less than Christianity as well. Nevertheless, the fact that Mormonism adds to the traditional Christian story does not necessarily mean that it detracts from Christianity to the point of denying it altogether.

"After all, what gives Christianity its identity is its commitment to the divinity of Jesus Christ. And on that ground Mormons are more Christian than many mainstream Christians who do not take seriously the astounding claim that Jesus is the Son of God.

"Mormonism is obsessed with Christ, and everything that it teaches is meant to awaken, encourage, and expand faith in him. It adds to the plural but coherent portrait of Jesus that emerges from the four gospels in a way, I am convinced, that does not significantly damage or deface that portrait."  http://www.firstthings.com/article/2012/01/mormonism-obsessed-with-christ .

Mormons excel in other areas:

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"A 1993 study published in Demography [magazine] showed that Mormons marrying within their church are least likely of all Americans to become divorced. Only 13 percent of LDS couples have divorced after five years of marriage, compared with 20 percent for religiously homogamist unions among Catholics and Protestants and 27 percent among Jews. However, when a Mormon marries outside his or her denomination, the divorce rate soars to 40 percent -- second only to mixed-faith marriages involving a Jewish spouse (42 percent)."

Quote

[Vern] Bengtson and his fellow researchers [at USC] found that the familial part of social networks remains critical in transmitting religious beliefs-—-or a lack of such. “Religious momentum across generations” remains a reality, Bengtson contends. Bengtson’s study especially found “momentum” with Mormon, Jewish, and evangelical Protestant families. Each had a fairly steady transmission rate, as the sociologists call it, between 1970 and 2005. Here are a few key data points:

    In 1970, 67 percent of Mormon parents had young adult children who shared their religion. By 2005, 85 percent did.

    In 1970, 70 percent of evangelical parents had young adult children within the same tradition. By 2005, 62 percent did.

    In 1970, 94 percent of Jewish parents had young adult children who shared their religion. By 2005, 82 percent did.  http://www.weeklystandard.com/author/william-mckenzie .

These are normal, natural tendencies: 

Quote

At least the studies that I’ve seen of sociologists in the United States and Europe show that most people remain in the religion into which they were born. The exceptions are people who were born to parents who had a mixed religion. Often, they will change. So, we can begin with the premise that most people stay in the family religion. Those that do change were in situations with a bit of conflict, and were perplexed about the issue.  http://www.religiousfreedom.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=356&Itemid=18 .

But why are Mormons more generous?

Quote

According to a non-Mormon two university study "researchers found that active members of the LDS Church volunteer and donate significantly more than the average American. When it comes to the time they spend volunteering, the average adult American LDS member contributes as much as seven times more than that of the average American.

"An average American Latter-day Saint provides almost 430 hours of volunteer labor annually. This equates to approximately 35 hours per month. In comparison, the average American volunteer provides about four hours of volunteering per month."   https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865697571/Study-shows-just-how-generous-Mormons-are-with-their-time-money.html .

Why is there a strong tendency of atheists to be less tolerant than religious people?  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/atheists-agnostic-religion-close-minded-tolerant-catholics-uk-france-spain-study-belgium-catholic-a7819221.html .

And why are religious people happier?  Pew research also shows that, in the U.S. and other countries, participation in a religious congregation is a key factor in happiness, civic engagement and good health –  http://www.pewforum.org/2019/01/31/religions-relationship-to-happiness-civic-engagement-and-health-around-the-world/ .

 

 

Edited February 24, 2019 by Robert F. Smith

[Hamba Tuhan]

On 2/22/2019 at 4:00 PM, changed said:

Mormonism is kind of a club for rich educated people who want to feel like they are serving, when really, they are only serving themselves.  

Poor, uneducated people in the Mormon church go inactive... because they are not wanted.

I'm not certain how to respond to this in the best way, but you are 100 per cent wrong. You have no idea how a ward operates, and you clearly have no idea what I spend most of my out-of-work time doing. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

On 2/22/2019 at 6:22 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

But shouldn't all those well-educated guys be more likely to be atheists?  What is it about the LDS community, religion, culture, etc., which finds a confluence of faith and intellect?  Is LDS theology more coherent than other theologies?  Is it that the Mormon community is a kind of ethnicity or way of life?  What is the secret ingredient(s)?

I can only speak for myself: it's because it actually lives up to its promises in a practical, testable, repeatable way.

[Navidad]

On 2/22/2019 at 9:09 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

I was asking a series of questions there, and you responded as though I had not.  The accepted wisdom in modern times is that better-educated people tend to become atheists.  Perhaps the secularization of Europe is a case in point, with North America merely a latecomer to that phenomenon.  Do you disagree?

I consider you quite wrong to suggest that "Mormonism doesn’t allow a lot of middle ground when approached in an intellectual way."  I consider exactly the opposite to be true, and Mark Bukowsli (on this board) shares my view.  That does not mean that we are correct.  Perhaps we are deluded.  But each of us can give solid intellectual reasons why LDS theology is coherent and very resilient -- something untrue of normative Judeo-Christian theology.

My experience with attending LDS-related conferences and reading a lot of LDS scholarly literature is that there is much middle ground for perspective. The pew might be a different reality. I was with you completely right up until your last statement following the hyphen - "something untrue of normative Judeo-Christian theology." I am not sure about that. I find much richness, coherence, and resilience in such theology especially when it comes to ecclesiology, eschatology, pneumatology, hermeneutics, and soteriology. I attended five different evangelical and mainstream seminaries and graduate schools of religion and found wide freedom and diversity of thought. I have preached in churches , mission groups, and colleges/universities ranging from reformed to Anabaptist to fundamentalist, Pentecostal, Wesleyan, and Anglican - wonderful diversity of thought and generosity in discussing varying perspectives. 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

My experience with attending LDS-related conferences and reading a lot of LDS scholarly literature is that there is much middle ground for perspective. The pew might be a different reality. I was with you completely right up until your last statement following the hyphen - "something untrue of normative Judeo-Christian theology." I am not sure about that. I find much richness, coherence, and resilience in such theology especially when it comes to ecclesiology, eschatology, pneumatology, hermeneutics, and soteriology. I attended five different evangelical and mainstream seminaries and graduate schools of religion and found wide freedom and diversity of thought. I have preached in churches , mission groups, and colleges/universities ranging from reformed to Anabaptist to fundamentalist, Pentecostal, Wesleyan, and Anglican - wonderful diversity of thought and generosity in discussing varying perspectives. 

My grandpa and one of my uncles were Methodist ministers with advanced degrees.  They lived at a time before Methodism became moribund, when a Christian lifestyle mattered, when the mission field was filled to overflowing and ready for harvest.  Indeed, my ancestor Rev Sampson Smith ran a Presbyterian Prep School for the synod in Eastern Pennsylvania back in the mid-1700s, and his wife was the daughter of a famous Presbyterian minister in a long line of such good men of the Church of Scotland.  Back in those days, a minister had to know Hebrew and Greek, both of which I have studied extensively.  I love to listen to the Rev Tom Wright and Pete Enns, and other luminaries within the normative Protestant and Catholic faiths.  They have much to teach us.  I even include anti-Mormons like Rob Bowman in that group of fine gentlemen of the cloth.  The problem is that the Protestant and Catholic faiths are dying in the face of rampant secularism and the incoherent nature of their theologies.  They have never managed an adequate reply to something like Bertrand Russell's "Why I am Not a Christian."  They simply do not have rigor and logic on their side, which I find irremediably sad.

[california boy]

16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

https://www.reddit.com/r/latterdaysaints/comments/4bnont/as_mormons_become_more_educated_they_become_more/ .

You're free to reject non-Mormon Pew research conclusions (avoidance response?), and I am still asking why these characteristics obtain among Mormons and not among other religious groups.  Any substantive ideas?

 .

This survey has some real red flags for me.  Among Mormons, 76% say they attend weekly?  Where are these wards.  I certainly have never seen one.  Does anyone see this kind of activity in their area?  Is there a link back to the PEW institute?  

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, california boy said:

This survey has some real red flags for me.  Among Mormons, 76% say they attend weekly?  Where are these wards.  I certainly have never seen one.  Does anyone see this kind of activity in their area?  Is there a link back to the PEW institute?  

I live in the Davis County area and I am pretty sure ours is that high in a lot of neighborhoods.

[california boy]

Things that diminish faith?  Claims of revelations from God when in fact it is just personal opinion that they feel good about. 

[california boy]

Just now, Tacenda said:

I live in the Davis County area and I am pretty sure ours is that high in a lot of neighborhoods.

You think the church average is anywhere close to 76% weekly attendance?

[Tacenda]

18 minutes ago, california boy said:

You think the church average is anywhere close to 76% weekly attendance?

Not at all, just in certain areas. So I haven't read the survey very closely, they are saying it's the overall average? hum...

Edited February 24, 2019 by Tacenda

[cdowis]

On 2/20/2019 at 4:29 PM, CAS said:

I am curious if people believe there is an actual relationship between faith and:

I  love yes or no questions.  It's so easy to impress someone with your answers.

1. Education, does it strengthen or weaken faith?

Yes

2. Types of callings, does being a Teacher help one be more faithful than say a Family History Consultant? Are there callings that appear to be more likely to increase a person’s faith?

Yes and no.  Depends on the individual 

3. Family background, persons from a strong by the book family - do they tend to have more success rearing faithful children and being faithful members themselves?

Hmmmm.....  You got me on that one.  It is a matter of research, and I suspect several studies have been done on it.

4. Those who claim to have felt the Holy Ghost, do they tend to have stronger faith?

5. Regular daily scripture study, does this help make a person more likely to be faithful?

YES.. ABSOLUTELY...HALLELUJAH!!!!

 

 

Edited February 24, 2019 by cdowis

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

This survey has some real red flags for me.  Among Mormons, 76% say they attend weekly?  Where are these wards.  I certainly have never seen one.  Does anyone see this kind of activity in their area?  Is there a link back to the PEW institute?  

The survey is of self reported LDS. The most telling thing about it is that the majority of those who don’t attend, don’t identify as LDS. At least to pollsters.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

This survey has some real red flags for me.  Among Mormons, 76% say they attend weekly?  Where are these wards.  I certainly have never seen one.  Does anyone see this kind of activity in their area?  Is there a link back to the PEW institute?  

Pew Research Center's survey of "Mormons in America," Jan 12, 2012, online at http://www.pewforum.org/2012/01/12/mormons-in-america-executive-summary/ .

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The problem is that the Protestant and Catholic faiths are dying in the face of rampant secularism and the incoherent nature of their theologies.

I really don't want this to be true in any way!

I have a good Catholic friend whom I admire immensely. He's good and kind and deep and clever. He also, I suspect, would agree with you. He has told me that, from his perspective, Christianity is dying. He's already trying to determine what his personal role should be in this context. He has told me on more than one occasion that he's the only person who regularly attends his parish who is under the age of 60 and one of the few males. He rejects all Latter-day Saint truth claims outright but envies the fact that we are still, in his words, 'spiritually alive'.

(The most spiritually alive he's ever met, he claims. One evening, he said the Elders and I should visit the parish to teach the people there how to be spiritually alive. I told him we could do that, but it would just result in everyone becoming Saints.)

I don't think this is a good situation for the world at large or for us Latter-day Saints in particular. For all of Restoration history, we have parasitised other Christian churches, relying on them to teach the basics before we could 'add anything to it', and especially to help create Christian or at least free pluralist societies, where Christian values are at least familiar and where laws allow us to exist and to preach. It's going to be a new thing for us if we have to start going it alone.

Edited February 25, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 hours ago, california boy said:

You think the church average is anywhere close to 76% weekly attendance?

What is meant when people report 'weekly attendance'? If I'm sick at home one week, should I report no? What if I'm away for two weeks on business? What if I'm an ambulance worker, a nurse, or an aged-care worker and regularly work two Sundays per month? I would assume this is a proxy response that means 'I attend church whenever I can'.

And that raises an issue I've brought up on this forum several times already, including, I think, just last week. When I was last serving in a bishopric, I kept an attendance roll of all members for an entire quarter. In our ward, just under 60 per cent of our members attended during that quarter. But the highest weekly attendance figure we had was around 25 per cent. That's because people who attend regularly don't actually attend every single week. To take just one example, the bishop I served under had some months where he travelled for work three of four Sundays, and he missed at least one Sunday per month.

In our ward, we have doctors, disability workers, aged-care workers, prison wardens, youth workers, ambulance workers, and others who all work some Sundays. We have people whose business regularly takes them away. We have people who get sick. We have people who travel for holidays and family events. (Living in the capital, many people come here to work but don't consider it home and so go visit family every chance they get.) I didn't actually attend my ward last week because of stake business. Attempts to extrapolate who's really active (attends 'every week') based upon sacrament meeting attendance (which is based on only 12 Sundays per year) is always going to undercount.

I'm not at all surprised that 76 per cent of self-identified members would say they attend church every week. I think we'd get roughly that response from our ward. We have those who regularly attend, those who don't but are known, and those who don't but no one has any idea where or sometimes who they are. It's this last group that I suspect wouldn't self-identify as Saints. Our known inactives certainly would.

[Calm]

40 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I really don't want this to be true in any way!

I have a good Catholic friend whom I admire immensely. He's good and kind and deep and clever. He also, I suspect, would agree with you. He has told me that, from his perspective, Christianity is dying. He's already engaging in an exercise of determining what his personal role is in such a context. He has told me on more than one occasion that he's the only person who regularly attends his parish who is under the age of 60 and one of the few males. He rejects all Latter-day Saint truth claims outright but envies the fact that we are still, in his words, 'spiritually alive'. One evening, he said the Elders and I should visit the parish to teach the people there how to be spiritually alive. I told him we could do that, but it would just result in everyone becoming Saints.

I don't think this is a good situation for the world at large or for us Latter-day Saints in particular. For all of Restoration history, we have parasitised other Christian churches, relying on them to teach the basics before we could 'add anything to it', and especially to help create Christian or at least free pluralist societies, where Christian values are at least familiar and where laws allow us to exist and to preach. It's going to be a new thing for us if we have to start going it alone.

We had a Chinese couple who had zip knowledge of Christianity over for a first discussion with missionaries.  Even some basic definitions had to be explained as they had an atheist background.

Missionaries struggled to create a framework.  There is so much we assume people know and think about God and the afterlife.

Edited February 25, 2019 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

We had a Chinese couple who had zip knowledge of Christianity over for a first discussion with missionaries.  Even some basic definitions had to be explained as they had an atheist background.

Missionaries struggled to create a framework.  There is so much we assume people know and think about God and the afterlife.

One of my Jewish Latter-day Saint friends really reinforced this point for me. He repeatedly sang the praises of the faithful Evangelicals who had taught him to first have faith in Jesus Christ. The leap from Judaism to Restoration Christianity was just too great for him, he said. We desperately need other Christian churches to be vibrant and effective -- for many, many reasons!

Edited February 25, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[Navidad]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

My grandpa and one of my uncles were Methodist ministers with advanced degrees.  They lived at a time before Methodism became moribund, when a Christian lifestyle mattered, when the mission field was filled to overflowing and ready for harvest.  Indeed, my ancestor Rev Sampson Smith ran a Presbyterian Prep School for the synod in Eastern Pennsylvania back in the mid-1700s, and his wife was the daughter of a famous Presbyterian minister in a long line of such good men of the Church of Scotland.  Back in those days, a minister had to know Hebrew and Greek, both of which I have studied extensively.  I love to listen to the Rev Tom Wright and Pete Enns, and other luminaries within the normative Protestant and Catholic faiths.  They have much to teach us.  I even include anti-Mormons like Rob Bowman in that group of fine gentlemen of the cloth.  The problem is that the Protestant and Catholic faiths are dying in the face of rampant secularism and the incoherent nature of their theologies.  They have never managed an adequate reply to something like Bertrand Russell's "Why I am Not a Christian."  They simply do not have rigor and logic on their side, which I find irremediably sad.

You have a rich heritage. You also cite men of very different traditions who exemplify the diversity and richness of non-LDS Christian traditions. Enns has an Anabaptist heritage, Wright an Anglican, and Bowman a Southern Baptist evangelical perspective. I find it sad that you have such a limited view of the richness of the current non-LDS Christian scholarship. The folks you mention are bright, scholarly folks who don't mind challenging the mainstream approach to things. There are many more in every tradition in the non-LDS Christian world. Thanks for sharing.