The VERY Respectful Temple Poll

[JLHPROF]

On the other temple poll I commented that very little seems to be viewed as eternal in the Church anymore.  I thought I'd start a poll.  Obviously  NO specific temple content/comments.

[Jane_Doe]

My perspective: eternal Truths are eternal.  The specifics of the rituals we go through to understand these Truths are specifically catered to us, to help us better understand.  Hence, as we and our understanding changes, so do the educational tools used.

In one way, it's like learning math: math is math.  2+2=4.  The end.  But the ways in which we teach math and the pieces we focus on do indeed change, because we change.  And that's not remotely a bad thing.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

My perspective: eternal Truths are eternal.  The specifics of the rituals we go through to understand these Truths are specifically catered to us, to help us better understand.  Hence, as we and our understanding changes undertake, so do the educational tools used.

In one way, it's like learning math: math is math.  2+2=4.  The end.  But the ways in which we teach math and the pieces we focus on do indeed change, because we change.  And that's not remotely a bad thing.

Thank you for the response.  I think that represents the views of a large number of members.  I respectfully disagree.

[bluebell]

I agree with Jane. 

[JLHPROF]

16 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I agree with Jane. 

Most members do.  That's why the endowment has changed so much from what Joseph restored.

[Jane_Doe]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Most members do.  That's why the endowment has changed so much from what Joseph restored.

Again, just sharing my perspective: the First Vision and 1800's Restoration were restoring large-scale communication and priesthood authority.  Get those channels flowing once more and to continue learning (9th AofF).  It was never meant to be a "stop!" point for learning, individually and collectively.  

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Again, just sharing my perspective: the First Vision and 1800's Restoration were restoring large-scale communication and priesthood authority.  Get those channels flowing once more and to continue learning (9th AofF).  It was never meant to be a "stop!" point for learning, individually and collectively.  

I agree.  Truth never ends.  We will always be learning.  I believe God is still learning.

Increased learning doesn't negate eternal patterns.  Take baptism.  Baptism by immersion in water is a requirement to enter the Celestial Kingdom.  I believe that means every Celestial Kingdom in existence is populated by people who were baptized by immersion on the earth where they spent their mortal probations (or vicariously).  Baptism is an eternal ordinance required to enter a Celestial glory. 

Learning more doesn't negate the need of ordinance any more than learning algebra negates the need for arithmetic.

[Jane_Doe]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I agree.  Truth never ends.  We will always be learning.  I believe God is still learning.

Increased learning doesn't negate eternal patterns.  Take baptism.  Baptism by immersion in water is a requirement to enter the Celestial Kingdom.  I believe that means every Celestial Kingdom in existence is populated by people who were baptized by immersion on the earth where they spent their mortal probations (or vicariously).  Baptism is an eternal ordinance required to enter a Celestial glory. 

Learning more doesn't negate the need of ordinance any more than learning algebra negates the need for arithmetic.

But the way we present and teach arithmetic and algebra has varied over time.  

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

But the way we present and teach arithmetic and algebra has varied over time.  

But that's the question.  Are the things taught in the temple a representative presentation of truth or the truths themselves.

I believe they are actually ancient and eternal.  When Joseph calls the method of temple prayer he restored the way to "pray and get an answer" or Brigham says the keywords, signs and tokens allow us to pass by the angels  that stand as sentinels I believe them.

I believe that the reason we no longer receive revelations that are written down in the Church isn't that we've moved beyond the need for them.  I believe it's because we no longer teach how to correctly approach God in our temples.  Not in prayer, not at the veil, and not in higher ordinances.  The things the early prophets said were absolutely needed to enter God's presence and receive revelations we no longer do.

It's either that or Joseph, Brigham, Wilford etc were all wrong.

[SouthernMo]

How do people who voted that they believe the penalties are eternal and the same on every world come to that conclusion?  It’s very clear that the penalties have changed.

[strappinglad]

10 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Baptism by immersion in water is a requirement to enter the Celestial Kingdom

OK but would it be alright to use water vapor or heavy water or wine or...?

If a man is missing a limb or two he can still be baptised , no? Yet we worry if a few strands of hair don't quite go under. Circumstances dictate exemptions. Again , a person without a right arm can still be endowed. What part is eternal and what part symbol ? 

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

OK but would it be alright to use water vapor or heavy water or wine or...?

If a man is missing a limb or two he can still be baptised , no? Yet we worry if a few strands of hair don't quite go under. Circumstances dictate exemptions. Again , a person without a right arm can still be endowed. What part is eternal and what part symbol ? 

I think you meant to quote JLH and not Jane but you make a good point. 

Another exception to the rule of baptism and the celestial kingdom are children who die before 8 and receive the celestial kingdom without baptism. 

[Maidservant]

I actually don't know and don't possess a conviction as to the way the poll is stated.  I haven't thought about nor sought about it in that way.

I am of the understanding that the temple is map, not the Thing.  So if the map helps you to see the Thing, then it is good.  But it is not the Thing itself.

Temple means template, or is associated with that meaning.

The actual ordinance of baptism is the entry into this world.  The actual entry into the Holy of Holies is the entry into this world.  This world IS the veil.  We are passing through the veil now.  Your endowment IS your passage within this world, and what you unlock and experience and attain to within it (i.e. overcoming and subjecting all things).  You are already in the process of giving the tokens to 'angels'.

The temple is the map.  It's a key.  It's not the door nor the room nor the Life--simply the key that allows you to open the door and enter the room/the Life.  The temple endowment ceremony is not the actual endowment.  It's just the instruction for how to receive your endowment from this Lifetime.

I don't know that the wheel needs to be reinvented every time there is a new temple world (which, by the way, I don't think all worlds are set up as temple/baptism/binding of Isaac worlds; just as a temple is a building, but not all buildings are temples).  So, I would imagine the temple/late presentations as they are, perhaps not eternal, but durable, tried and tested, if you will.  But not untouchable.  But I would ask what else would be a worthy replacement, and I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Maidservant

[Maidservant]

 

26 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

It's either that or Joseph, Brigham, Wilford etc were all wrong.

Coming to meat doesn't mean that milk was wrong--except it does mean that milk is wrong.  But not when it was milk.  Only when we come to meat does milk become wrong.

I am not saying affirmatively that Joseph etc were the milk and we are the meat; only that it's possible to have a point of view that does not rely on an either-or binary.  You may.  But not everyone has to.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Maidservant

[strappinglad]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think you meant to quote JLH

True but JLHs quote was in Janes post . Oops. 

[JLHPROF]

50 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

How do people who voted that they believe the penalties are eternal and the same on every world come to that conclusion?  It’s very clear that the penalties have changed.

You mean were dropped, not coincidentally at the same time recordable revelation appears to have ceased.

No true temple prayer, no true revelation.

Drop an eternal principle, lose a blessing.

[mfbukowski]

The covenants are eternal because they define behaviors all Godly societies must have to be "Godly" by definition.

The presentation is cultural but describes universal themes, fall from innocence etc.

God speaks through humans

 

Edited December 29, 2018 by mfbukowski

[clarkgoble]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

On the other temple poll I commented that very little seems to be viewed as eternal in the Church anymore.  I thought I'd start a poll.  Obviously  NO specific temple content/comments.

I think the assumption that ceremonies are in detail the same everywhere is deeply problematic. An obvious example is the Didiche (early Christian text outlining their sacrament prayer) that differs from Moroni 5. Brigham Young was explicit that he got the ceremony to a certain point but I don't think he ever claimed it was "eternal" in the sense you are. Quite the contrary. 

The second issue is that I believe the endowment is preparatory for the actual ascent/resurrection. You're endowed to be something not as something. As such (IMO) it'd be silly to take the signs and tokens as eternal since it's preparing us for that actual reception of tokens and signs used in the real ascent. That's not to say they might not be required of us, but I think it's teaching a pattern.

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

You mean were dropped, not coincidentally at the same time recordable revelation appears to have ceased.

Good grief. Lots of revelation still out there.

 

 

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Brigham Young was explicit that he got the ceremony to a certain point but I don't think he ever claimed it was "eternal" in the sense you are. Quite the contrary. 

The second issue is that I believe the endowment is preparatory for the actual ascent/resurrection. You're endowed to be something not as something. As such (IMO) it'd be silly to take the signs and tokens as eternal since it's preparing us for that actual reception of tokens and signs used in the real ascent. That's not to say they might not be required of us, but I think it's teaching a pattern.

I  don't think Brigham would agree with you.  In the lives of many of these early leaders we can trace the path they followed from ordinance to ordinance to ascension in this life, prior to resurrection.

They've already walked the path as restored and achieved the goals and results.  Yet here we are thinking it isn't necessary and there are alternate routes (contrary to what Joseph taught).

And Brigham was clear about the ancient and eternal nature of the elements listed in this poll.  He agreed with you on the presentation elements.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Most members do.  That's why the endowment has changed so much from what Joseph restored.

Here's the problem:

To discover if this is true, we would have to read actual transcripts of temple ordinances, then and now.

But only anti Mormons can do that.

There's a little epistemological problem here.

[mfbukowski]

One presumes that the prophets seers and revelators know more about the temple than we do.

I think that has to be a given otherwise why would we listen to them about anything?

If the prophets seers and revelators think that the endowment or its presentation can be changed who are we to say they are wrong?

If the ordinances were given by the 15,  and the prophet, then the 15 and the prophet must know what can and cannot be changed

I don't see how anything else can be justified. 

So who was wrong, the original 15 or the present 15 and how could you know that?

We must postulate they are correct or else we are all........ messed up. We might as well be Presbyterian.

But I have a testimony they are correct,  and that is the final arbiter for me. If testimony doesn't work then God has no way to communicate with mankind.

I know that that is incorrect because he has communicated with me. 

Edited December 29, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Hamba Tuhan]

7 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Take baptism.  Baptism by immersion in water is a requirement to enter the Celestial Kingdom.  I believe that means every Celestial Kingdom in existence is populated by people who were baptized by immersion on the earth where they spent their mortal probations (or vicariously).

So which of the following is the correct set of words to speak when baptising someone?

• I baptize thee, having authority from the Almighty God, as a testimony that ye have entered into a covenant to serve him until you are dead as to the mortal body; and may the Spirit of the Lord be poured out upon you; and may he grant unto you eternal life, through the redemption of Christ, whom he has prepared from the foundation of the world.
• Having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.
• Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.

5 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

No true temple prayer, no true revelation.

So you've stopped receiving revelation? I certainly haven't!

[clarkgoble]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

One presumes that the prophets seers and revelators know more about the temple than we do.I think that has to be a given otherwise why would we listen to them about anything?

I tend to assume they know more than I do about it, but I don't think that has anything to do with why I listen to them. It may well be they know just what you and I know about the temple but the Lord tells them about other things like changing how long church is.

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Here's the problem:

To discover if this is true, we would have to read actual transcripts of temple ordinances, then and now.

But only anti Mormons can do that.

There's a little epistemological problem here.

Some of us just remember the big differences from when we were endowed and what was taken out when Pres. Hinkley removed many masonic elements like the five points of fellowship and the enactment of curses.

But there's also quite a bit of secondary literature on all this. No anti-Mormonism necessary.

5 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I  don't think Brigham would agree with you.  In the lives of many of these early leaders we can trace the path they followed from ordinance to ordinance to ascension in this life, prior to resurrection.

They've already walked the path as restored and achieved the goals and results.  Yet here we are thinking it isn't necessary and there are alternate routes (contrary to what Joseph taught).

And Brigham was clear about the ancient and eternal nature of the elements listed in this poll.  He agreed with you on the presentation elements.

Hard to say much without knowing what you're referring to. I think I know what you're referring to, but if it is what I think it is then it simply doesn't make the claim you're taking it as. (Here assuming you're referring to Young's comments on the heavenly ascent in JD 2)

 

Edited December 29, 2018 by clarkgoble

[SouthernMo]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Here's the problem:

To discover if this is true, we would have to read actual transcripts of temple ordinances, then and now.

But only anti Mormons can do that.

There's a little epistemological problem here.

Why can only anti-Mormons read temple transcripts?

[rpn]

There wasn't an option that the temple sealing of families is eternal, though not necessarily the ceremonies.   That is what I would have said.