what is our position on the Caravan

[The Nehor]

22 minutes ago, Steve J said:

In DMV, you better be bilingual if you want to mange anything with manual labor

Then learn Spanish if you want to make that a career. What is your point?

Fun Fact: Knowing things, knowing how to do things, and knowing languages often opens up employment doors. Shocking, but true.

[The Nehor]

27 minutes ago, Steve J said:

What argument are making? Bc you were making the argument that people were irrationally fearing that they would take their jobs... 

No, I was not. I think you may have confused me with someone else.

People do have that fear, both rationally and irrationally.

Edit: I would add that if automation, efficiency, and technology continue to grow in labor-saving power we are going to have to take a long hard look at the economy and restructure as full employment may become impractical and continuing as we are will lead to dystopia but we are at least decades and possibly a century or two from that.

Edited October 26, 2018 by The Nehor

[changed]

Here is an immigrant story for you - of one of my students.  This was a little family who came from Korea.  Many people take advantage of illegal immigrants, in this case - my student was forced to work for free alongside her father (who was paid very little) in  laundry mat.  This family lived in a one-room apartment, had to share a kitchen, sleeping on the floor - horrible living conditions, long work hours for almost no pay - slave labor - it really is a form a slavery some of the jobs that are happening... well... the mother in this family, she came to the rescue - she learned how to do nails really really well.  She learned a trade, set up her own business, taught the father how to do nails - they are now doing really well for themselves, and are not in a horrible minimum wage job any more.  They are productive, contributing members of society, putting their daughter through college, an amazing American story of hard work and ingenuity.  

[MiserereNobis]

37 minutes ago, Steve J said:

She stated that she was unable to get a job in the service industry because you needed to be bilingual.

This has little to no bearing on illegal immigration because it is about location. If you live in an area where there are many Spanish only speakers, a service job can easily consider speaking Spanish part of your qualifications. 

Imagine deep in the heart of Chinatown you apply at a restaurant. You speak only English. The other applicant speaks English and Chinese. All things equalish, the owner would be wise to hire the other. 

Your friend would be wise to learn Spanish if she’s gonna live in my neck of the woods (I’m just across the border in NM)

[MiserereNobis]

38 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

I see no reason why we can’t do both at the same time 

Then you need to study up on unjust laws. 

[Steve J]

I’m sorry if you think i was talking racial distinction.... it was more an influx of undocumented and unlicensed young men... they could have been Hispanic, German, Asian, etc...

[SteveO]

2 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Then you need to study up on unjust laws. 

Would you feel comfortable with say...President Trump deciding which laws were unjust and therefore not needing executive enforcement?

[Steve J]

6 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

This has little to no bearing on illegal immigration because it is about location. If you live in an area where there are many Spanish only speakers, a service job can easily consider speaking Spanish part of your qualifications. 

Imagine deep in the heart of Chinatown you apply at a restaurant. You speak only English. The other applicant speaks English and Chinese. All things equalish, the owner would be wise to hire the other. 

Your friend would be wise to learn Spanish if she’s gonna live in my neck of the woods (I’m just across the border in NM)

Ok... so native born Americans should learn the other language when they are in their country...

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m not sure they do pay their own way. 

I’ve heard that, even though they pay a modicum of taxes, illegal aliens are a net drain on social services, education, infrastructure, etc. ......................

A common misconception.  However, everyone who works in normal jobs has taxes and Social Security deducted automatically -- even if the SSN is fake, or one is using an ITIN.  The only case in which no taxes are paid is in unrecorded cash only jobs, which are quite rare these days.  Illegal aliens are not even eligible to receive the Medicare and Social Security benefits they are paying into each payday.  Their children, most of whom are born here and are thus citizens, do go to American public schools and are eligible for the same medical benefits all other citizens are entitled to (a great investment in human capital, which more than pays for itself in the long run).  Illegal aliens are a huge net benefit to the American economy.  https://www.vox.com/2018/4/13/17229018/undocumented-immigrants-pay-taxes .

[changed]

1 hour ago, Steve J said:

As many as 37 million people in Latin America would like to relocate to the U.S. permanently,

 

Here is a question for you - where would you personally like to move to?

https://www3.forbes.com/business/international-livings-10-best-places-to-retire-around-the-world-in-2017/3/

I have an aunt who spends half the year in Costa Rica - perhaps everyone in Costa Rica should freak out about all the Americans wanting to head over and enjoy the beach.... we could send a survey around "Would you be interested in permanently moving to a tropical paradise?)  I bet I could get a few million Americans to admit they would like to "relocate"...   

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/more-americans-are-retiring-outside-the-u-s/

Just under 400,000 American retirees are now living abroad, according to the Social Security Administration. The countries they have chosen most often: Canada, Japan, Mexico, Germany and the United Kingdom....

Haha, Americans are headed South, while others are headed north "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence?"  haha.

Edited October 26, 2018 by changed

[changed]

7 minutes ago, Steve J said:

Ok... so native born Americans should learn the other language when they are in their country...

 

Actually, no one is going to have to learn any languages:

http://puredigitalco.com/2017/10/11/babel-fish-reality/

We're all just going to walk around with Babel fish in our ears   

The tower of Babel is falling down... gotta love technology.  

Edited October 26, 2018 by changed

[Steve J]

6 minutes ago, changed said:

 

Here is a question for you - where would you personally like to move to?

https://www3.forbes.com/business/international-livings-10-best-places-to-retire-around-the-world-in-2017/3/

I have an aunt who spends half the year in Costa Rica - perhaps everyone in Costa Rica should freak out about all the Americans wanting to head over and enjoy the beach.... we could send a survey around "Would you be interested in permanently moving to a tropical paradise?)  I bet I could get a few million Americans to admit they would like to "relocate"...   

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/more-americans-are-retiring-outside-the-u-s/

Just under 400,000 American retirees are now living abroad, according to the Social Security Administration. The countries they have chosen most often: Canada, Japan, Mexico, Germany and the United Kingdom....

Haha, Americans are headed South, while others are headed north "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence?"  haha.

I wonder how many of the 400,000 were born in Mexico.... (this is an honest question)

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I was responding to your claim that Mexico has "strict entry laws." They do not, at least on the US side. Entry laws is not the same as traveling through the whole country to central America.

Mexico's entry law on the US border is a quarter and a driver's license.

Fair enough for you. You can cross the border from the US with a quarter and a driver's license. When I go to Canada, I have to have a passport or an enhanced driver's license. Which of those document do the caravan travelers present at the borders they cross?

Can you also take 7000 friends with you, travel the length of the Mexico, and freely pass the border into Guatemala?

Quote

Enjoy a Two Nation Vacation - San Diego and Baja Mexico

Cross Border Xpress

An easy and convenient way to travel to the region is the Cross Border Xpress pedestrian bridge connecting the Tijuana International Airport (TIJ) to San Diego. The airport offers access to over 30 destinations within Mexico and direct flights from China. 

DOCUMENTATION

When crossing the border back and forth between Baja and San Diego, you’ll need to have a valid passport or other acceptable identification handy. When entering the United States, U.S. citizens are required to show passport, U.S. passport card, Trusted Traveler Program card (NEXUS, SENTRI, Global Entry or FAST) or an Enhanced Driver's License. Resident aliens must possess a green card. Knowing which ID to bring depends upon your method of travel (air, land, or sea). Voter's registration card, military ID, driver's license and social security cards are not considered valid forms of citizenship identification. For more information on the San Diego ‒ Tijuana border crossing, visit Smart Border Coalition.

Citizens of other countries must carry a valid passport with a valid I-94 or multiple entry visa or visa waiver to re-enter the United States; please verify details with the Mexican Consulate before traveling.

When traveling by air between the U.S. and Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean or Bermuda, you are required to present a U.S. passport, except as noted below. This applies to everyone including newborns, infants and children.

• The only exceptions to this requirement are for:
  • U.S. citizens on active duty with the U.S. Armed Forces, traveling with military ID and travel orders
  • U.S. citizen merchant mariners traveling in conjunction with maritime business, with U.S. issued Merchant Mariner Document
  • Travelers with a NEXUS card used at a NEXUS kiosk at Canadian Preclearance airports
  • U.S. Lawful Permanent Residents with a Permanent Resident Card or other evidence of permanent residence status and required documentation; refugees and asylees with a Refugee Travel Document
• Guests traveling by land who plan to stay longer than 72 hours and travel beyond Ensenada must obtain a tourist permit at the Mexican consulate in the United States or at the Immigration office near the border entrance. The migratory from must be turned in when leaving the country and minors must be accompanied by their parents, or have a notarized letter from the absent parent, authorizing the leave the country.
• Special Travel Procedures for Children:
  • U.S. citizen children under age 16 arriving by sea from Canada, Mexico, Bermuda, or the Caribbean may present an original or certified copy of his or her birth certificate, Consular Report of Birth Abroad, or Certificate of Citizenship. 
  • U.S. citizen children under age 16 arriving by land from Canada or Mexico may present an original or certified copy of his or her birth certificate, Consular Report of Birth Abroad, or Certificate of Citizenship.¹
  • Groups of U.S. citizen children ages 16 through 18, when traveling with a school or religious group, social organization, or sports team, will be able to enter under adult supervision with originals or copies of their birth certificates or other proof of citizenship. See the Department of Homeland Security's GetYouHome.gov for more information on the changing travel requirements.

¹ Source: U.S. Department of State

INTERNATIONAL TRAVELER'S VISA REQUIREMENTS

Passport holders from countries on Mexico's no visa required list do not need to apply for a formal visa to visit Mexico. The maximum period of time that a visitor may stay in Mexico without a formal visa is six months. Pedestrians crossing into Tijuana at the San Ysidro crossing need to complete a Mexico Visitor's Permit (FMM ‒ FREE if the trip is 7 days or less and you cross by land) and present a passport. People driving across the border are not currently affected by this. The FMM is a simple form, you can acquire one at all land border crossings. If you travel beyond the 22 miles/35 km "free zone" after crossing a land border into Mexico you will need to pay a fee of around US $22. Your USA tourism visa is enough to return to the United States after visiting Mexico.

 

This is informative:

Quote

http://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2018/04/04/mexico-border-enforcement-migrants

On the U.S. contributions to Mexico's immigration enforcement efforts

"This has been very much a part of the U.S. security assistance program for Mexico. Well over $100 million has been destined, or designated, for use on the Mexican-Guatemalan border. So they support what Mexico is trying to do in that area, providing intelligence, communications equipment. They have given X-ray technology, even canine units. There's a lot that goes on to strengthen the capacity of Mexico to ensure and protect its borders."

On whether the U.S. is getting a return on that investment

"Yes, I think it is. I think there's a lot of ways in which Mexico has been trying to take control of the flow of undocumented migrants in Central America coming through. Here's the problem, however: People are leaving Central America because of the violence, because of the desperate poverty. And so many of them, actually, may not have the documents to enter the country but should be allowed to file for political asylum, in Mexico and in the United States. We've seen over a 300 percent increase in Central Americans seeking asylum in Mexico. That's really important. And Mexico has tried to expand its capacity to receive Central Americans and look at their asylum claims, just like the United States has."

 

 

Edited October 26, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[let’s roll]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I do not think that was a US effort primarily. It was largely internal though the US and other nations helped as they could.

Though the prayers of the Saints for the freeing of Eastern Europe as requested by the prophet certainly helped as did John the Revelator.

Agreed, although I think many were anxious to give all the credit to Pres. Reagan. 😊

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I hate to break this to you but the US has been meddling in Central American and South American countries since the start of the Could War and telling them to fix everything hasn’t worked yet. We could march in and “win” at horrific cost but then we spend the next half a century in a vicious quagmire trying to rebuild them. ..............................

Actually since long before the Cold War.  As my brother Marine, Maj-General Smedley Butler said of his experience suppressing freedom in Central America:

Quote

"I served in all commissioned ranks from second lieutenant to Major General. And during that period I spent most of my time being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism. I suspected I was just part of the racket all the time. Now I am sure of it."  https://www.americanswhotellthetruth.org/portraits/major-general-smedley-butler .

See his booklet, War is a Racket (1935).

[Steve J]

1 hour ago, let’s roll said:

I agree it’s not an either/or answer.  Immigration and asylum play a role, I’ve represented folks (pro bono) in successful petitions for political asylum. 

But my point was we’re treating it as an either/or proposition.  You don’t see any discussion in the US of improving conditions in their home countries, only vitriol on both sides on immigration.

We can do more.  The Berlin Wall came down, Germany was unified, governments in Eastern Europe left the Communist bloc.  It can be done with the proper focus and resolve of all parties.  . 

I’m advocating for that type of focus and resolve as we, in parallel,  carry out rational immigration and asylum policies.

I agree that their is no real discussion about improving home country conditions

[Robert F. Smith]

14 minutes ago, changed said:

......................

Just under 400,000 American retirees are now living abroad, according to the Social Security Administration. The countries they have chosen most often: Canada, Japan, Mexico, Germany and the United Kingdom....

Haha, Americans are headed South, while others are headed north "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence?"  haha.

Many expatriate American veterans also move in large numbers to places like the Philippines (Manila even has a U.S. Veterans Administration Hospital which services them).

[Bernard Gui]

22 minutes ago, Steve J said:

Imagine deep in the heart of Chinatown you apply at a restaurant. You speak only English. The other applicant speaks English and Chinese. All things equalish, the owner would be wise to hire the other. 

You've obviously never shopped at the Asian markets in the Northwest. I was just in the Hong Kong Market in Federal Way, WA, yesterday. All the workers except the cashiers were Latin Americans.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[changed]

26 minutes ago, Steve J said:

I wonder how many of the 400,000 were born in Mexico.... (this is an honest question)

Do a google image search for "Mexican retirement community for Americans" and see the pictures that come up

[changed]

30 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Fair enough for you. You can cross the border from the US with a quarter and a driver's license. When I go to Canada, I have to have a passport or an enhanced driver's license. Which of those document do the caravan travelers present at the borders they cross?

Can you also take 7000 friends with you, travel the length of the Mexico, and freely pass the border into Guatemala?

 

This is informative:

 

7,000 people headed to Mexico

ok - just 6,780, but close enough.

 

Edited October 26, 2018 by changed

[mrmarklin]

In general I'm very sympathetic to people who want a better life.  Some of the conditions these people live in are appalling.

That said, I think we need to control the US borders.   The current laws are not the correct ones IMHO.  Maybe this incident will be a catalyst for a more open policy for those who want to improve their lives.  There is certainly no reason not to regularize those already in the country, after proper application and vetting.  And to at least give work visas to those of good character who want to be here for opportunity.  No welfare benefits should be available for those who want to enter.  But I see no reason that opportunity should not be extended.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Steve J said:

Ok... so native born Americans should learn the other language when they are in their country...

If they want to live in El Paso? Yes. Or we could give it back to Mexico as an apology for the Mexican American war. That is if they will take it. I would not. 

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Most of the caravan is from Honduras with some Guatemalans and probably a couple of other nationalities mixed in. Honduras is a cesspool right now of violence and poverty. I would probably be running too.  

It was that way when I lived there 50 years ago. My first missionary discussion was in a barrio on the mountainside behind Tegucigalpa. The poorest of the poor lived up there. The dirt road up the hill had a trench dug along it that was used as the communal latrine. The family of 8 lived in a tiny shack constructed from flattened cardboard boxes. No furniture and a few worn blankets on the floor. The children under 8 had no clothes except ragged t-shirts. These were the kind of folks that were washed away in the mudslides caused by Hurricane Mitch.

Nicaragua was only a little better off under the oppressive hand of Anastasio Somoza, but even then the Sandinistas were active in the mountains. Their coming to power did nothing to help the poor. IMO this is the fatal flaw in the cultures. Guns rule, but that’s pretty much all they do. Of course, some progress is being made....Tegus has a shopping mall and Danli has a stake...the influence of the Church is being felt, there are more US aid and philanthropic organizations getting established, etc., but guns still rule. When I was there it was the Colombian cartels that called a lot of the shots, , but now it’s others. That hasn’t changed, and not much can until it does. Societal reform must happen or the caravans will keep rolling. Who knows how they are organized and financed. No one I met ever had money to pay for such a journey. They couldn’t afford a bus fare to Church.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, changed said:

Here is an immigrant story for you - of one of my students.  This was a little family who came from Korea.  Many people take advantage of illegal immigrants, in this case - my student was forced to work for free alongside her father (who was paid very little) in  laundry mat.  This family lived in a one-room apartment, had to share a kitchen, sleeping on the floor - horrible living conditions, long work hours for almost no pay - slave labor - it really is a form a slavery some of the jobs that are happening... well... the mother in this family, she came to the rescue - she learned how to do nails really really well.  She learned a trade, set up her own business, taught the father how to do nails - they are now doing really well for themselves, and are not in a horrible minimum wage job any more.  They are productive, contributing members of society, putting their daughter through college, an amazing American story of hard work and ingenuity.  

They came illegally? My daughter-in-law’s family came in legally from South Korea with very little....her dad had been in the US Army. He just retired from Boeing after 30 years of never missing a day’s work. All 3 of their daughters are college grads and are very prosperous. They are adamant about legal migration.

I have had many Korean/Cambodian/Vietnamese/Laotian/Burmese students who immigrated legally and have excelled including graduate degrees from high-ranking universities. Legal immigration is a very good thing. Illegal immigration not so much.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, changed said:

7,000 people headed to Mexico

ok - just 6,780, but close enough.

 

Those folks on the boats are providing millions of dollars and thousands of jobs. IMO, that’s a good thing.