smac97 Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 7 minutes ago, Danzo said: You are right it is absurd. His legal status is irrelevant to his drunk driving. But his unlawful presence in the U.S. is relevant. Thanks, -Smac Link to comment
The Nehor Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Vance said: The source was right there in the link, and YOU STILL GOT IT WRONG!!!!!! “In a candid interview with Fox News, a migrant with the caravan identified as “Jose” admitted that he has already been deported from the U.S. for being convicted for felony attempted murder.” I said the source was Fox News when I saw the first reference to this this morning (not your link by the way) and was sure the report originated with Fox. I was right. The interview was done by a Fox reporter as your article even clearly states. Edited October 30, 2018 by The Nehor 1 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Vance said: Prima facie evidence that it was unlawful. Bearing false witness was unlawful, more evidence that it was unlawful Being successful didn't make it lawful. Lawful and just are not synonyms. Link to comment
The Nehor Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Vance said: You can't use the law to deny entrance into the US of anyone who wants to come here, because, JESUS!!! Putting aside your blatant sacrilegious disrespect for the Savior for a moment is your sarcasm an attempt to suggest the Savior is not a good reason for doing something? Or that his example and teachings are irrelevant to some decisions? Just saying that kind of thinking is the beginning of apostasy. 1 Link to comment
Danzo Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 6 minutes ago, smac97 said: But his unlawful presence in the U.S. is relevant. Thanks, -Smac You claim to be a lawyer? You understand what relevance is? Link to comment
MiserereNobis Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: Putting aside your blatant sacrilegious disrespect for the Savior for a moment is your sarcasm an attempt to suggest the Savior is not a good reason for doing something? Or that his example and teachings are irrelevant to some decisions? Just saying that kind of thinking is the beginning of apostasy. Exactly. My understanding is that Jesus is supposed to be at the center of all of our decisions and actions. 3 Link to comment
smac97 Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 Just now, Danzo said: You claim to be a lawyer? You understand what relevance is? I do. Are you able to have a discussion about a difficult topic without resorting to insults and false accusations? Thanks, -Smac 1 Link to comment
BlueDreams Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 1 hour ago, smac97 said: I don't think so. I think it's a reasonable one. It's the mirror image to anecdotes about "illegal immigrants are just people who want to come here and work and provide for their families." Illegal immigration is not a victimless crime. It's only reasonable, IMO, if it's truly representative of said population. It's not. Pulling out the worst cases and problems in said population in isolation to the actual stats, figures and voices of other opinions or perspectives is extremely biased sourcing. I don't find it reasonable at all. Testing.......I'm getting the forbidden 403 thing when I'm trying to post BD 2 Link to comment
Danzo Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, smac97 said: I do. Are you able to have a discussion about a difficult topic without resorting to insults and false accusations? Thanks, -Smac because it would appear that you a me have a vastly different understanding on what relevant evidence is. Lets do it this way. If we were in a trial for vehicular manslaughter and If you were the prosecutor and I were the defense attorney and I objected to your introducing the immigration status. How would you respond? How Should the Judge rule? Edited October 30, 2018 by Danzo 3 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, smac97 said: I do. Are you able to have a discussion about a difficult topic without resorting to insults and false accusations? Thanks, -Smac Your facile calls for civility are tiresome and interrupt the discussion more then the mild rebuke you received. It is almost as if this is a reflexive dodge to move on from you being wrong....... Edited October 30, 2018 by The Nehor 1 Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 1 hour ago, halconero said: FWIW, President Nelson added another comment regarding immigration a couple days ago: "On immigration, President Nelson said, 'We teach that we should build projects of cooperation instead of fences of opposition,' adding, 'I don't like fences.'" Yes, in principle of course; however, the problems occur when defining and working out the details of projects of cooperation. 1 Link to comment
BlueDreams Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 (edited) And the line you keep giving about victimless crimes with the foxnews report about it is a good point of showing a less common problem to represent the whole of an issue. Most undocumented immigrants didn't come here through direct boarder crossings. The greater majority come from visa overstays and border crossings as a whole have drastically dropped in numbers...those who do cross the border by foot may still try legal points of entry as well. So, again that story from an ICE agent, isn't representative of what's actually happening and the majority of said population. It expands the negative assumption of how common horrendous experiences occur and reaffirms a picture of danger and crime-breeding among undocumented immigrant populations....particularly among a group most likely to already believe such (republican and conservative leaning folk....the vast majority of fox news readers/listeners) Quote I'm surprised at the cynicism. I don't equate illegal immigrants with "minority communities." This isn't a race issue. There are plenty of "minority" folks who also oppose or are concerned about illegal immigration. FWIW, I deeply resent the "If you are concerned about illegal immigration you must be a bigot and hate brown people" trope. 13% of Hispanics want illegal immigrants deported, and a plurality feel that illegal immigration has a negative impact. (Source). Half (48%) of Democrats and 79% of Republicans are concerned about illegal immigration. (Source). See also this article: I disagree with these policy proposals. I think we need to provide for the illegal immigrants who are here. But these policy proposals are A) being presented as pertaining to black Americans, and B) are not race-based. So concern about illegal immigration is, for many, many people, not a "race" issue It's not cynicism. I'm surprised you can read that in what you quoted. It's not an equating, but a heavy overlap. And the overlap means issues faced by minority communities are often represented by the dialogue around undocumented or unauthorized immigrants....who represent a minority in both numbers, power, and voice in our country. And the dialogue around them echos what is heard again and again in minority communities throughout US history. The goal post of who's the problem group/population just switches out. Note: I never said that line in quotation marks. You are putting words in my mouth. I have worked very hard to not put bigot or hate towards a specific people in my arguments here. Overt racism is usually not the initial culprit of problems these days. And your stats and article paint a different picture for me than what you're giving. To me, what I see in the numbers is that political and racial identification strongly correlate with how one views this issue and why its concerning. In other words, it bolsters my perspective. Even one of your sources that you gives points that the higher hispanic concern was likely tied to how they are treated in the US rather than republican high concern about enforcement, deportation, and restrictions... that democrat concern has reduced while republican concern has stayed relatively the same for years. And its important to remember that And your article is from a group of black conservatives who are not representative of the larger African american population. Finding a small group of brown/black people who agree with an opinion that the majority of said minority groups wouldn't agree to doesn't say much. A fun comparison.....22% of US LDS folk ID as democrat or democratic leaning. Which means there are far more members of our faith who are democrat leaning than there are hispanics who want illegal immigrants deported. And far more that believe abortion should be legal in most cases. (source) Quote I'm not "hyper concerned." And I rub shoulders with significant numbers of illegal immigrants. Quite regularly, actually. Then you don't have to assume I mean you specifically. Especially sense I kept it extremely general and didn't name someone here specifically Quote Anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal on my part but based on some evidence...There have been polls to show as much. Whites especially have a small group of non-white peers considered in their "core social networks." Especially if they are over the age of 30. Even though this is more anecdotal evidence, a fun game to play is to look at one's friends list on FB. Find a number of friends who are white or another race and see how many of their friends are of the same race as them. It shows the same concept. Out of time, I don't know how much I'll be able to check in today. Plus something I'm writing is apparently triggering the "forbidden 403" response again....I'm seeing if its the amount of hyperlinks I had for sources EDIT: yep, Apparently....UGH! I swear all of this had sources. With luv, BD Edited October 30, 2018 by BlueDreams 2 Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 16 minutes ago, The Nehor said: “In a candid interview with Fox News, a migrant with the caravan identified as “Jose” admitted that he has already been deported from the U.S. for being convicted for felony attempted murder.” I said the source was Fox News when I saw the first reference to this this morning (not your link by the way) and was sure the report originated with Fox. I was right. The interview was done by a Fox reporter. Whatever one’s preference in news sources, this is an interesting example of poisoning the well. Link to comment
Gray Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 1 hour ago, halconero said: FWIW, President Nelson added another comment regarding immigration a couple days ago: "On immigration, President Nelson said, 'We teach that we should build projects of cooperation instead of fences of opposition,' adding, 'I don't like fences.'" That's some very sly shade Link to comment
MiserereNobis Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 14 minutes ago, BlueDreams said: Pulling out the worst cases and problems in said population in isolation to the actual stats, figures and voices of other opinions or perspectives is extremely biased sourcing. I agree. And there's a bit of irony here considering the quotation from George W. Bush in @smac97's signature line. 1 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 (edited) 1 minute ago, MiserereNobis said: I agree. And there's a bit of irony here considering the quotation from George W. Bush in @smac97's signature line. I have had more then one chuckle at the irony of that part of his signature line when in a post designed to vilify. Edited October 30, 2018 by The Nehor 1 Link to comment
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