The Nehor Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: The Savior had to die, and God our Father knew that the laws under which he was born would insure it, or would you rather he lived and there was no Atonement, and no Resurrection? I also assume that you use every legal (allowable means under the law) process to pay as little taxes as you can; right? That is not the same thing as fraud, the other poster spoke of, for sure. The poster I answered was seeking to imply we all try to evade paying taxes.. I understand, 8 years active Army, 2 years in The National Guard, and 23 years in Law-Enforcement, makes me "The Man" (to use a 60's term), and I a sworn enemy of the young, so does that make me wrong no matter what I post? I understand that more and more, most posters are much younger, and far more liberal, but does that mean those of us who are older are dinosaurs, should leave, or stop posting? Don't worry, my time IS coming to n end, but, I still love you all. I am arguing that the Savior's conviction was unjust even if it was lawful. No one is trying to drive you off. At least I am not. 1
Bernard Gui Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 7 hours ago, Danzo said: Wrong, had his presence here been legal, he would have still committed the crime. Your objection seems to be to his presence here, not to the legality of that presence. Your whole argument stems from believing that his presence at the scene of the crime is the contributing factor, not the legality of his presence. The legality or illegality of his presence here was depended on a combination of the place he was born, his relations here and the effectiveness of legal counsel that he might have retained to adjust his status. It also depended on the accident of the particular set of laws that he was subject to when he entered. His legality or illegality is not relevant to the crime committed. There is no way to know that. Had he been legally he might have been a model citizen gainfully employed and living in another place.
why me Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 5 hours ago, bluebell said: None of that answers those questions though. In europe there were many christians using christ to welcome over a million migrants and refugees into their continent. And now we see the impact. In Berlin, many gays have been assauted my young migrant men. This was just in the Berliner Zeitung and other newspapers have written about the rise in homophobia in Germany: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/is-berlin-s-gay-population-experiencing-a-backlash-1.3578454 One must read between the lines in the above article. And here is the article from the Berliner Zeitung. One can google translate it. https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/berlin/polizei/homophobe-uebergriffe-verpruegelt--weil-sie-anders-sind-31417208 These are the consequences of migration. Something that christians who use christ words need to be aware of.
Calm Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, why me said: In europe there were many christians using christ to welcome over a million migrants and refugees into their continent. And now we see the impact. In Berlin, many gays have been assauted my young migrant men. This was just in the Berliner Zeitung and other newspapers have written about the rise in homophobia in Germany: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/is-berlin-s-gay-population-experiencing-a-backlash-1.3578454 One must read between the lines in the above article. And here is the article from the Berliner Zeitung. One can google translate it. https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/berlin/polizei/homophobe-uebergriffe-verpruegelt--weil-sie-anders-sind-31417208 These are the consequences of migration. Something that christians who use christ words need to be aware of. From Okrahamer's thread in In The News: Quote “He also said that Muslims unfairly suffer discrimination for the bad actions of radicalized Muslims. "They are our brothers and sisters," President Nelson said, "and we don’t like adversarial proceedings between them or us." “On immigration, President Nelson said, "We teach that we should build projects of cooperation instead of fences of opposition," adding, "I don't like fences." 2
why me Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Calm said: From Okrahamer's thread in In The News: One problem is that islamism and political islam are on the rise within muslim communities. I am not writing about the terror kind but how the Quran is interpreted. Saudi Arabia has spent billions in spreading salafism and wahhabism throughtout europe and the world. Unfortunately, one cannot ask what kind of islam does a migrant adheres to. For example, Sufism is extremely tolerant. However, the more conservative forms of islam are not. Unfortunately, we do not discuss such issues when it comes to migration from the islamic world. Have you listened to the Hirsi Ali interview on this thread that I posted? Here is one of many articles about the rise of saudi sponsored islam throughout the world: https://theweek.com/articles/570297/how-saudi-arabia-exports-radical-islam However for the migrants in the caravan, how can the US check out if these people have criminal records? Or their documentation? Edited October 30, 2018 by why me
The Nehor Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 55 minutes ago, why me said: In europe there were many christians using christ to welcome over a million migrants and refugees into their continent. And now we see the impact. In Berlin, many gays have been assauted my young migrant men. This was just in the Berliner Zeitung and other newspapers have written about the rise in homophobia in Germany: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/is-berlin-s-gay-population-experiencing-a-backlash-1.3578454 One must read between the lines in the above article. And here is the article from the Berliner Zeitung. One can google translate it. https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/berlin/polizei/homophobe-uebergriffe-verpruegelt--weil-sie-anders-sind-31417208 These are the consequences of migration. Something that christians who use christ words need to be aware of. Huh, you have to read between the lines because it does not say what you are saying it says? “Some point to the 2015-2016 arrival of more than one million migrants – many raised in homophobic cultures in Afghanistan, Syria and northern Africa – and a 12 per cent rise in hate crimes against homosexuals in the same period. But German police warn against oversimplification, saying by far the largest group behind homophobic attacks are German men under 30.” So it is a consequence of migration even though authorities say it is not the main cause? 2
The Nehor Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: There is no way to know that. Had he been legally he might have been a model citizen gainfully employed and living in another place. So you are saying that if we gave all illegal immigrants legal residency there is a chance it will increase their employment and reduce criminality. Thanks for the suggested solution!
Scott Lloyd Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 Just now, The Nehor said: So you are saying that if we gave all illegal immigrants legal residency there is a chance it will increase their employment and reduce criminality. Thanks for the suggested solution! Or another way to interpret it is that if the government only admitted immigrants who had been through the vetting process and come legally, it would increase their employment and reduce the number of criminals. In fact, I'd say that's the more likely interpretation. 1
The Nehor Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 Just now, Scott Lloyd said: Or another way to interpret it is that if the government only admitted immigrants who had been through the vetting process and come legally, it would increase their employment and reduce the number of criminals. In fact, I'd say that's the more likely interpretation. Well, I actually just think the premise is bunk so I thought I would twist it for fun.
Calm Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 10 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Huh, you have to read between the lines because it does not say what you are saying it says? “Some point to the 2015-2016 arrival of more than one million migrants – many raised in homophobic cultures in Afghanistan, Syria and northern Africa – and a 12 per cent rise in hate crimes against homosexuals in the same period. But German police warn against oversimplification, saying by far the largest group behind homophobic attacks are German men under 30.” So it is a consequence of migration even though authorities say it is not the main cause? The migrants are egging on the Germans to attack gays, calling them chicken if they won't.
Bernard Gui Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 (edited) 52 minutes ago, The Nehor said: So you are saying that if we gave all illegal immigrants legal residency there is a chance it will increase their employment and reduce criminality. Thanks for the suggested solution! ??? No. Butterfly effect. Edited October 30, 2018 by Bernard Gui
Vance Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 11 hours ago, The Nehor said: I am arguing that the Savior's conviction was unjust even if it was lawful. No one is trying to drive you off. At least I am not. But it wasn't "lawful". Here is a clue, it occurred in the middle of the night. Have you not read "Jesus the Christ"?
Vance Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 14 hours ago, Danzo said: Are you seriously saying that if this guy had had his status adjusted (or if one of his parents happened to by a US citizen), he would not have been driving drunk? that is a serious stretch in logic. By that logic we could, by changing the US immigration laws, eliminate the problem of drunk driving. By your logic, the right of an alien to brake the law, both in entering this country and driving, most likely without a license, AND driving drunk, supersedes a citizens right to life.
Vance Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 The members of this mob intentions are oh so pure. https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/10/29/watch-caravan-migrant-admits-to-previously-being-deported-from-u-s-for-attempted-murder/ Let's just let them in and give them a hug, because . . . Jesus.
Kevin Christensen Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Vance said: The members of this mob intentions are oh so pure. https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/10/29/watch-caravan-migrant-admits-to-previously-being-deported-from-u-s-for-attempted-murder/ Let's just let them in and give them a hug, because . . . Jesus. Propaganda is all about deciding which examples to use (of all that could be selected) and generalizing from that selection as representative of the whole. Propaganda never begins with removing any beams from one's one eye, but rather seeks first and foremost, to find reason to accuse, cast blame, find fault all of which ends of excusing and justifying the accuser, who is so busy pilling stones and pointing that he never becomes the target. What happens to the perception of the LDS as a group if we select, completely at random, say, Isaac Haight as typical of what to expect as the product of our culture? Is he truly representative? Did he do he did because he was a typical Mormon, doing what any Mormon can be expected to do at all times and in all places? Or does he come from an exceptional, and non-representative situation? The shooter who visited the Tree of Life Synagogue in Squirrel Hill on Saturday (35 minutes from where I live and 10 minutes from where my grandaughters live) explained that he was defending the US against the invading caravan. https://www.vox.com/2018/10/29/18037580/pittsburgh-shooter-anti-semitism-racist-jewish-caravan FWIW Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA Edited October 30, 2018 by Kevin Christensen Added link 4
Gray Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Vance said: The members of this mob intentions are oh so pure. https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/10/29/watch-caravan-migrant-admits-to-previously-being-deported-from-u-s-for-attempted-murder/ Let's just let them in and give them a hug, because . . . Jesus. Have you talked to someone about your fake news addiction? 1
Guest Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 12 hours ago, The Nehor said: I am arguing that the Savior's conviction was unjust even if it was lawful. No one is trying to drive you off. At least I am not. Thank you, but there is a certain, "fire in the belly" needed to continue debating such matters. Well most matters to be honest. I have so many other things going on, that "fire" is being extinguished. As to your first comment, can you explain, "I am arguing that the Savior's conviction was unjust", please?
The Nehor Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Vance said: The members of this mob intentions are oh so pure. https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/10/29/watch-caravan-migrant-admits-to-previously-being-deported-from-u-s-for-attempted-murder/ Let's just let them in and give them a hug, because . . . Jesus. Oh, for...... I saw that clickbait and made a few predictions: 1. It came from Fox News. 2. It would be incredibly short on details with no follow up so it serves as propaganda instead of real reporting. Right on both counts. What a bunch of slipshod amateur-hour reporting. Guy says he was convicted of attempted murder and is hoping for a pardon from Trump and that he will get across the border. No questions or investigation? First of all, is he an idiot thinking a migrant is going to get a Trump pardon? More importantly, where is the digging? This has the potential to be a decent news piece. What jurisdiction was this in? What were the details of the case? Why is someone convicted of an attempted murder felony being deported instead of being locked up? If an American citizen went to Canada and tried to kill someone would we be okay with Canada just dumping them at the border? What happens if a felon convicted in a US court shows up at the border and asks for asylum as this guy plans? Are they caught by routine fingerprinting? What checks are in place? All fantastic questions but the Fox reporter seem utterly uninterested. Nope, this is just propaganda and details might muddy the waters and take away from the “murderers on imminent approach” narrative they want to spew. And yet people line up to go to these lazy propagandists for news? Are you completely incurious? So desperate for anything that confirms your views? At least it vindicates Paul I suppose: “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.” Edited October 30, 2018 by The Nehor 3
The Nehor Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 1 minute ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: Thank you, but there is a certain, "fire in the belly" needed to continue debating such matters. Well most matters to be honest. I have so many other things going on, that "fire" is being extinguished. As to your first comment, can you explain, "I am arguing that the Savior's conviction was unjust", please? The Savior’s conviction was lawful but unjust.
Guest Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 Just now, The Nehor said: The Savior’s conviction was lawful but unjust. Still not following?
The Nehor Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 7 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: Still not following? I am not sure what the question is then.
Danzo Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: There is no way to know that. Had he been legally he might have been a model citizen gainfully employed and living in another place. So according to your logic, having different immigration laws would have prevented this tragedy.
Guest Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 13 hours ago, Danzo said: Yes, I help illegal immigrants without social security numbers fill out their 1040s and teach them how to do it. They pay me to do it. My goal is to exalt the higher laws and to not condemn people for minor offenses when possible. In my studies of law, I have learned that some laws are more important than other laws (both secular and spiritual laws). I want to speak to the two comments above. How does someone file a 1040, without a Social Security Number, and if they do so, how do they conceal their status as someone who is in this country illegally? Also, if you are an Attorney, you cannot violate the law, nor pick and choose with laws to obey, without being disbarred. Just as I could not as an sworn Officer of the Law. Nor am I allowed as a Latter-day Saint, at least in this day and age, choose which laws I want to abide by, and ignore or break, or "help to break", others. Anyway, I'm done with this topic.
Guest Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 5 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I am not sure what the question is then. How was Jesus's "conviction" unjust? With that, maybe see you in another thread. My lack of helping others even understand my comments no questions, are more "fire extinguishing", to extend my earlier metaphor.
The Nehor Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: How was Jesus's "conviction" unjust? With that, maybe see you in another thread. My lack of helping others even understand my comments no questions, are more "fire extinguishing", to extend my earlier metaphor. It was unjust because he did not violate any laws. It was legal because the false witnesses were enough to convict. The process was irregular but the I’s were dotted and the T’s were crossed. 1
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