SWK Quote re Marijuana

[USU78]

From his 1971 conference address:

From among the discordant voices we are shocked at those of many priests who encourage the defilement of men and wink at the eroding trends and who deny the omniscience of God. Certainly these men should be holding firm, yet some yield to popular clamor.

I give some quotes from the press:

“Many churchmen are reluctant to give a definite yes or no to marijuana.” “It depends upon circumstances.” (Time, August 16, 1968.)

They have developed “situation ethics,” which seem to cover all sins.

 

 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

From his 1971 conference address:

 

 

And???

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, USU78 said:

From his 1971 conference address:

Quote

From among the discordant voices we are shocked at those of many priests who encourage the defilement of men and wink at the eroding trends and who deny the omniscience of God. Certainly these men should be holding firm, yet some yield to popular clamor.

I give some quotes from the press:

“Many churchmen are reluctant to give a definite yes or no to marijuana.” “It depends upon circumstances.” (Time, August 16, 1968.)

They have developed “situation ethics,” which seem to cover all sins.

 

Not sure what this means.  For example, compared to what?  It is at least arguable that Nicotine cigarettes and booze are far more dangerous than marijuana.  Yet they are legal, taxed, and regulated.  Why?  Because it is the smarter answer to a vexing problem.  Anyhow, I don't know that all sins or mistakes are equal.  Some are more damaging than others.  Indeed, the quickest way to earn the contempt and disregard of youth is to bear false witness as the relative gravity of this or that sin.  When people claimed that adultery and fornication were the same as murder, they only cheapened and devalued their own arguments against sin.  We need to temper our arguments lest we devalue the meaning of the Atonement and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.   Let us put first things first, and not get confused by knee-jerk nonsense.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[strappinglad]

Canada has just recently legalized MJ. Cannabis with whatever levels of THC can be sold at " approved" sites. However, in the wisdom of government, cannabis with no THC and only the supposedly pain controlling CBD oil must be used only with prescription. The reasoning? , not enough studies on the benefits. Studies on the benefits or detriments of getting high....not required. ALLRIGHTYTHEN !!!

[Calm]

I can see the reasoning.  People who are ill or desperate and are trying to get better don't need to further screw up their life by self medicating with uncontrolled substances that lie about what they can do.  Getting actual help without throwing away money on useless stuff, that is a good thing.

Otoh, what people do in their leisure time, the risk is on them.  Though it doesn't always work that way with drunk driving, lower production, and such.  Taxes on recreational products can help cover some of the costs.

[provoman]

Pre Conference article  title.

 

Mormon church backs deal to allow medical marijuana in Utah

Edited October 24, 2018 by provoman

[pogi]

15 hours ago, USU78 said:

From his 1971 conference address:

Quote

 

From among the discordant voices we are shocked at those of many priests who encourage the defilement of men and wink at the eroding trends and who deny the omniscience of God. Certainly these men should be holding firm, yet some yield to popular clamor.

I give some quotes from the press:

“Many churchmen are reluctant to give a definite yes or no to marijuana.” “It depends upon circumstances.” (Time, August 16, 1968.)

They have developed “situation ethics,” which seem to cover all sins.

 

Interesting how times change, because the current leaders of the church agree with those old "discordant voices" in that legalization of marijuana does indeed depend upon circumstances.

Quote

"The church does not object to the medicinal use of marijuana, if doctor-prescribed, in dosage form, from a licensed pharmacy," said Elder Jack N. Gerard, a General Authority Seventy with the church, often called by some the Mormon church.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900029171/mormon-church-joins-utah-coalition-saying-no-to-marijuana-initiative-but-yes-to-medical-marijuana.html

Secondly, being in favor of legalization does not equate to "encouraging the defilement of men".  Certainly, no current church leader would accuse a Latter-day Saint of encouraging the defilement of men if they are against prohibition.  One can be in favor of liberty, against the failed coercion of the drug war, and opposed to recreational use.  I am opposed to alcohol consumption, but I am also opposed to prohibition - it really is possible. 

Edited October 24, 2018 by pogi

[LoudmouthMormon]

Hi from smoky Colorado.  We did it first, and we did it worst.  Utah is learning from us hopefully, and won't be making the same mistakes we did.  For the love of pete - do not, repeat, NOT, amend y'alls constitution to include growing MJ for personal use (medical or otherwise).  That has screwed with us royally.  The Cartels (and others) have moved in bigtime.  They are very good businessmen.  It's not the violent bloodbath we were worried about, but it is a reason Colorado has rental prices going through the roof, and a lot of rental property owners are stuck with tens of thousands of dollars of damage.

Here's how it works:

- Go rent six to ten homes somewhere.  Hopefully out in the middle of nowhere on acreage with a barn, but plain old houses in neighborhoods will do also.
- Start by going to an MJ doctor and get a prescription.  That allows you to legally grow 99 plants instead of the 3 everyone gets.  There are half a dozen docs in the state happy to sell you a medical recommendation for $500.
- Bring in $10-$20k of equipment per house.  The plants need about a gallon of water each per day, they need lots and lots of light, and air circulation.  
- Install your equipment.  Feel free to modify plumbing and electric to suit your needs.  Feel free to drill holes through the floor.  The lights put off a lot of heat, so go ahead and install 3-4 commercial-grade air conditioners - just drill the ductwork straight through the side of the house.  The water will put off a lot of moisture - don't worry about the black mold that will spread through the house - you'll only be here for one, maybe two growing seasons. And it won't be you doing the growing and harvesting, it'll be the undocumented illegals you've pressed into indentured servitude.
- You get your workforce from south of the border.  It's a deal for them - you pay them enough to stay alive, and if they work for three full grow cycles, you promise them $5,000 so they can bring their family.
- One grow cycle is about 90 days. 

Let's do some math. Start up - $10-$50k gets you:
   Water costs: up to 99 gal/day for 90 days ~8,000 gallons.  
   Electricity costs: Grow lights + air conditioners
   Rental costs: You'll pay whatever they ask.  $3000/mo for a crappy old 2 bedroom house in bad shape?  No problem.  

If you know what you're doing, each 90 day grow cycle will produce 500 lbs or more of MJ.  Sell it in Colorado for $1,400/lb ($700k), or move it to another state and sell it for $4,000/lb ($2 million).  Every 90 days.

Oh, after you're done with your second crop and you've started your third grow, tip off the cops on your houses.  They show up and arrest and deport your workforce, and you're off the hook for their $5k bonus.  The cops are closing in on you anyway, because neighbors are starting to report the smell and the 4 AC units running nonstop even though it's 40 degrees outside, and you blew out the neighborhood electrical transformer because of your lights.  Utility companies are closing in on you with their on-site verification, and although they're wary of getting tagged as a snitch and being killed by you, they'll be here eventually.

Does everyone get the math here?  For a $50k investment, you make upwards of $3-4 million in 180 days.  Per house.  It's all cash, no taxes.  You destroy a few houses in the process, but they're not your houses.   What kind of idiot passes up a chance to make a few million dollars tax free in six months?  Thanks Colorado!   (If you want to be legit, own and maintain your grow locations, and pay 20-30% taxes, you can make maybe $100k-300k a year in Colorado.)  

 

I had this all explained to me by the Colorado Springs vice cop running their MJ operation.  They've got 6 cops and a Sargent working 4 days a week, doing nothing but busting illegal grow ops.  They served 100 warrants last year, each one of them a story like I just told you.  This is just in one city in Colorado.  He showed us the pictures of the homes, the mold, the air conditioning units, the holes drilled through the floor, results of the electrical fires.   Some of these growers are so good at it, their plants are like small trees, you have to use a chain saw to cut the trunk.  

I had parts of this story verified by the 2nd counselor in my bishopric, a guy named Sean, with a rental property.  The cops called him one day, and called him over to his property, where he discovered his destroyed rental unit.  That was a fun two weeks for him. 

So yeah Utah, take a good dang hard look at Colorado.  Don't make the same mistakes we're making.  No matter where you stand on medical MJ, open up your dang eyes before you vote yourdangselves into the same dang situation we're in.  It's almost enough to make this little LDS boy cuss.

So, you were wondering why the church has been supporting y'alls proposition 2?  Now you know a bit more than you did before. 

Edited October 24, 2018 by LoudmouthMormon

[oremites]

27 minutes ago, pogi said:

Interesting how times change, because the current leaders of the church agree with those old "discordant voices" in that legalization of marijuana does indeed depend upon circumstances.

When Spencer W. Kimball talked about that in conference, everyone would have understood him to mean the recreational use of marijuana.  Remember this was 1971.  Marijuana was a recreational drug and the idea of it being medicinal was only on the radar of very few people.

Here's a more complete quote from the Time article he quoted: "Many churchmen are reluctant to give a definite yes or no to marijuana, on the grounds that the medical evidence as to its harmfulness is incomplete."  In other words, they weren't saying it might be OK for medicinal use.  They were saying they don't know if recreational use is really that bad.

Context matters, including the context of the times and how the people then would have understood his point.  I don't think there's any conflict between what he said then and what leaders are saying now.

 

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

I can see the reasoning.  People who are ill or desperate and are trying to get better don't need to further screw up their life by self medicating with uncontrolled substances that lie about what they can do.  Getting actual help without throwing away money on useless stuff, that is a good thing............................

The Univ of Utah has had a research project for a number of years in which they inject cannabinoids into children with seizures.  Seems to calm the brain.

[pogi]

6 minutes ago, oremites said:

When Spencer W. Kimball talked about that in conference, everyone would have understood him to mean the recreational use of marijuana.  Remember this was 1971.  Marijuana was a recreational drug and the idea of it being medicinal was only on the radar of very few people.

Here's a more complete quote from the Time article he quoted: "Many churchmen are reluctant to give a definite yes or no to marijuana, on the grounds that the medical evidence as to its harmfulness is incomplete."  In other words, they weren't saying it might be OK for medicinal use.  They were saying they don't know if recreational use is really that bad.

Context matters, including the context of the times and how the people then would have understood his point.  I don't think there's any conflict between what he said then and what leaders are saying now.

Thanks for the further context. 

However, even when it comes to recreational use I still hold that a vote for legalization of marijuana does not necessarily equate to "encouraging the defilement of men."  There are many faithful libertarian members who view it as non-contradictory to be in favor of liberty while simultaneously being opposed to personal recreational use.  It is really no different from a member being opposed to recreational alcohol while simultaneously being opposed to prohibition.

The political views of our leaders do change over time on issues like this.  Early Mormon settlers built breweries in Salt Lake almost as soon as they arrived. 

Quote

"ZCMI sold beer, wine and even Valley Tan, a locally produced whiskey.   Hotel Utah, built by the church in 1910, boasted a basement with one of the finest bars in the West. Proceeds from the bar were used to pay off the $2 million cost of construction.  In what became known as the Wine Mission, European converts in the 1860s put their viticultural expertise to work and produced 3,000 gallons of wine a year in southern Utah."

It was Heber J Grant who aligned the church policy with the national temperance movement of the time, with absolute abstinence becoming church law.  Grant was pro prohibition.  Before that there were actually spittoons installed in the Salt Lake Tabernacle.  

President Grant probably would have said the same thing about alcohol "a vote for recreational alcohol use is the same as encouraging the defilement of men."  I wonder how many current leaders would agree with that reasoning today.

Political opinions of our leaders do change over time, and it is not accurate to say that a vote for legalization of marijuana (even recreational use) is the same as encouraging the defilement of men, nor does it wink at the eroding trends of society, nor does it deny the omniscience of God.  That is not fair to say about our Libertarian brothers and sisters.

[hope_for_things]

16 hours ago, USU78 said:

From his 1971 conference address:

 

 

It sounds like a slippery slope argument essentially suggesting that it all starts with situational marijuana use and quickly leads to complete moral relativism. 

[RevTestament]

42 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Hi from smoky Colorado.  We did it first, and we did it worst.  Utah is learning from us hopefully, and won't be making the same mistakes we did.  For the love of pete - do not, repeat, NOT, amend y'alls constitution to include growing MJ for personal use (medical or otherwise).  That has screwed with us royally.  The Cartels (and others) have moved in bigtime.  They are very good businessmen.  It's not the violent bloodbath we were worried about, but it is a reason Colorado has rental prices going through the roof, and a lot of rental property owners are stuck with tens of thousands of dollars of damage.

Here's how it works:

- Go rent six to ten homes somewhere.  Hopefully out in the middle of nowhere on acreage with a barn, but plain old houses in neighborhoods will do also.
- Start by going to an MJ doctor and get a prescription.  That allows you to legally grow 99 plants instead of the 3 everyone gets.  There are half a dozen docs in the state happy to sell you a medical recommendation for $500.
- Bring in $10-$20k of equipment per house.  The plants need about a gallon of water each per day, they need lots and lots of light, and air circulation.  
- Install your equipment.  Feel free to modify plumbing and electric to suit your needs.  Feel free to drill holes through the floor.  The lights put off a lot of heat, so go ahead and install 3-4 commercial-grade air conditioners - just drill the ductwork straight through the side of the house.  The water will put off a lot of moisture - don't worry about the black mold that will spread through the house - you'll only be here for one, maybe two growing seasons. And it won't be you doing the growing and harvesting, it'll be the undocumented illegals you've pressed into indentured servitude.
- You get your workforce from south of the border.  It's a deal for them - you pay them enough to stay alive, and if they work for three full grow cycles, you promise them $5,000 so they can bring their family.
- One grow cycle is about 90 days. 

Let's do some math. Start up - $10-$50k gets you:
   Water costs: up to 99 gal/day for 90 days ~8,000 gallons.  
   Electricity costs: Grow lights + air conditioners
   Rental costs: You'll pay whatever they ask.  $3000/mo for a crappy old 2 bedroom house in bad shape?  No problem.  

If you know what you're doing, each 90 day grow cycle will produce 500 lbs or more of MJ.  Sell it in Colorado for $1,400/lb ($700k), or move it to another state and sell it for $4,000/lb ($2 million).  Every 90 days.

Oh, after you're done with your second crop and you've started your third grow, tip off the cops on your houses.  They show up and arrest and deport your workforce, and you're off the hook for their $5k bonus.  The cops are closing in on you anyway, because neighbors are starting to report the smell and the 4 AC units running nonstop even though it's 40 degrees outside, and you blew out the neighborhood electrical transformer because of your lights.  Utility companies are closing in on you with their on-site verification, and although they're wary of getting tagged as a snitch and being killed by you, they'll be here eventually.

Does everyone get the math here?  For a $50k investment, you make upwards of $3-4 million in 180 days.  Per house.  It's all cash, no taxes.  You destroy a few houses in the process, but they're not your houses.   What kind of idiot passes up a chance to make a few million dollars tax free in six months?  Thanks Colorado!   (If you want to be legit, own and maintain your grow locations, and pay 20-30% taxes, you can make maybe $100k-300k a year in Colorado.)  

 

I had this all explained to me by the Colorado Springs vice cop running their MJ operation.  They've got 6 cops and a Sargent working 4 days a week, doing nothing but busting illegal grow ops.  They served 100 warrants last year, each one of them a story like I just told you.  This is just in one city in Colorado.  He showed us the pictures of the homes, the mold, the air conditioning units, the holes drilled through the floor, results of the electrical fires.   Some of these growers are so good at it, their plants are like small trees, you have to use a chain saw to cut the trunk.  

I had parts of this story verified by the 2nd counselor in my bishopric, a guy named Sean, with a rental property.  The cops called him one day, and called him over to his property, where he discovered his destroyed rental unit.  That was a fun two weeks for him. 

So yeah Utah, take a good dang hard look at Colorado.  Don't make the same mistakes we're making.  No matter where you stand on medical MJ, open up your dang eyes before you vote yourdangselves into the same dang situation we're in.  It's almost enough to make this little LDS boy cuss.

So, you were wondering why the church has been supporting[I think you meant criticizing] y'alls proposition 2?  Now you know a bit more than you did before. 

Thanks for the warning. Utah needs to be aware of the problems which have occurred in other states which have legalized any types of cannabis use. I have not supported Proposition 2, but have been against it, even though I am for allowing medical cannabis. In order to keep out the recreational stuff, I have decided to promote high CBD strains with a somewhat arbitrary grow limit to 1%-1.5% THC strains and usage - not enough to be psychoactive. This allows true medical uses while discouraging recreational use disguised as medical use, and all the money in recreational use.

The Church has been against Proposition 2, but has recently come out in favor of a proposed bill allowing for regulated medical use under the care of a doctor through pharmacies. This bill would not allow prescriptions for smoking MJ, but I don't  think it has any limits for the amount of THC a doctor could prescribe. My personal research has found little to no true medical use for high THC MJ with the probable exception of pain relief. However, pain relief has also been reported with low THC varieties of medical cannabis, so for except in cases of painful terminal conditions, I don't see much medical efficacy for high THC MJ - although further research may find some. However, in such terminal cases usually opiods work OK without having to worry about addiction. So, in short I see virtually no societal benefit to high THC MJ. Further, there are studies which connect MJ use to brain damage in youths, lung cancer and other ailments. I think it best to just keep it illegal, and discourage its use. So in this sense I don't really favor the proposed bill either - it seems to discourage high CBD cannabis too much while allowing high THC MJ use in the form of oils, etc. By not allowing unregulated private grows, I think we could avoid the problems you are describing in CO, while allowing true medical use. The problem as I see it is that the money in recreational MJ will continue to present continual pressure on whatever system is put in place for medical use.

[oremites]

26 minutes ago, pogi said:

However, even when it comes to recreational use I still hold that a vote for legalization of marijuana does not necessarily equate to "encouraging the defilement of men." 

I appreciate your additional comments, but I don't think you can link the "encouraging the defilement of men" comment to the legalization question in any way.

If it would help, imagine President Kimball adding this to his comments above - "To be clear, I'm only speaking about the recreational use of marijuana and not addressing the issue of legalization or medicinal use."  He may or may not have thought that legalization would equate to the "defilement" but we don't know that.

Yes, leaders attitudes change over time, but this is not an example of it.  Would church leaders today say that the recreational use of marijuana is OK?

You can be for the legalization of marijuana (even for recreational use) as a matter of liberty and not feel rebuked by President Kimball as "encouraging the defilement of men" because that's not what he was talking about.

[Bernard Gui]

52 minutes ago, pogi said:

Political opinions of our leaders do change over time, and it is not accurate to say that a vote for legalization of marijuana (even recreational use) is the same as encouraging the defilement of men, nor does it wink at the eroding trends of society, nor does it deny the omniscience of God.  That is not fair to say about our Libertarian brothers and sisters.

A number of people very close to me have been defiled by pot.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Hi from smoky Colorado.  We did it first, and we did it worst.  Utah is learning from us hopefully, and won't be making the same mistakes we did.  For the love of pete - do not, repeat, NOT, amend y'alls constitution to include growing MJ for personal use (medical or otherwise).  That has screwed with us royally.  The Cartels (and others) have moved in bigtime.  They are very good businessmen.  It's not the violent bloodbath we were worried about, but it is a reason Colorado has rental prices going through the roof, and a lot of rental property owners are stuck with tens of thousands of dollars of damage.

Here's how it works:

- Go rent six to ten homes somewhere.  Hopefully out in the middle of nowhere on acreage with a barn, but plain old houses in neighborhoods will do also.
- Start by going to an MJ doctor and get a prescription.  That allows you to legally grow 99 plants instead of the 3 everyone gets.  There are half a dozen docs in the state happy to sell you a medical recommendation for $500.
- Bring in $10-$20k of equipment per house.  The plants need about a gallon of water each per day, they need lots and lots of light, and air circulation.  
- Install your equipment.  Feel free to modify plumbing and electric to suit your needs.  Feel free to drill holes through the floor.  The lights put off a lot of heat, so go ahead and install 3-4 commercial-grade air conditioners - just drill the ductwork straight through the side of the house.  The water will put off a lot of moisture - don't worry about the black mold that will spread through the house - you'll only be here for one, maybe two growing seasons. And it won't be you doing the growing and harvesting, it'll be the undocumented illegals you've pressed into indentured servitude.
- You get your workforce from south of the border.  It's a deal for them - you pay them enough to stay alive, and if they work for three full grow cycles, you promise them $5,000 so they can bring their family.
- One grow cycle is about 90 days. 

Let's do some math. Start up - $10-$50k gets you:
   Water costs: up to 99 gal/day for 90 days ~8,000 gallons.  
   Electricity costs: Grow lights + air conditioners
   Rental costs: You'll pay whatever they ask.  $3000/mo for a crappy old 2 bedroom house in bad shape?  No problem.  

If you know what you're doing, each 90 day grow cycle will produce 500 lbs or more of MJ.  Sell it in Colorado for $1,400/lb ($700k), or move it to another state and sell it for $4,000/lb ($2 million).  Every 90 days.

Oh, after you're done with your second crop and you've started your third grow, tip off the cops on your houses.  They show up and arrest and deport your workforce, and you're off the hook for their $5k bonus.  The cops are closing in on you anyway, because neighbors are starting to report the smell and the 4 AC units running nonstop even though it's 40 degrees outside, and you blew out the neighborhood electrical transformer because of your lights.  Utility companies are closing in on you with their on-site verification, and although they're wary of getting tagged as a snitch and being killed by you, they'll be here eventually.

Does everyone get the math here?  For a $50k investment, you make upwards of $3-4 million in 180 days.  Per house.  It's all cash, no taxes.  You destroy a few houses in the process, but they're not your houses.   What kind of idiot passes up a chance to make a few million dollars tax free in six months?  Thanks Colorado!   (If you want to be legit, own and maintain your grow locations, and pay 20-30% taxes, you can make maybe $100k-300k a year in Colorado.)  

 

I had this all explained to me by the Colorado Springs vice cop running their MJ operation.  They've got 6 cops and a Sargent working 4 days a week, doing nothing but busting illegal grow ops.  They served 100 warrants last year, each one of them a story like I just told you.  This is just in one city in Colorado.  He showed us the pictures of the homes, the mold, the air conditioning units, the holes drilled through the floor, results of the electrical fires.   Some of these growers are so good at it, their plants are like small trees, you have to use a chain saw to cut the trunk.  

I had parts of this story verified by the 2nd counselor in my bishopric, a guy named Sean, with a rental property.  The cops called him one day, and called him over to his property, where he discovered his destroyed rental unit.  That was a fun two weeks for him. 

So yeah Utah, take a good dang hard look at Colorado.  Don't make the same mistakes we're making.  No matter where you stand on medical MJ, open up your dang eyes before you vote yourdangselves into the same dang situation we're in.  It's almost enough to make this little LDS boy cuss.

So, you were wondering why the church has been supporting y'alls proposition 2?  Now you know a bit more than you did before. 

Thanks!! I hope Utah would be smart enough to never go down that road. But it does need to full on recognize the awesome medicinal uses and not be too specific on who is allowed to use it. Because there are far more uses than the three or four popular ones making news.

[Tacenda]

21 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Thanks for the warning. Utah needs to be aware of the problems which have occurred in other states which have legalized any types of cannabis use. I have not supported Proposition 2, but have been against it, even though I am for allowing medical cannabis. In order to keep out the recreational stuff, I have decided to promote high CBD strains with a somewhat arbitrary grow limit to 1%-1.5% THC strains and usage - not enough to be psychoactive. This allows true medical uses while discouraging recreational use disguised as medical use, and all the money in recreational use.

The Church has been against Proposition 2, but has recently come out in favor of a proposed bill allowing for regulated medical use under the care of a doctor through pharmacies. This bill would not allow prescriptions for smoking MJ, but I don't  think it has any limits for the amount of THC a doctor could prescribe. My personal research has found little to no true medical use for high THC MJ with the probable exception of pain relief. However, pain relief has also been reported with low THC varieties of medical cannabis, so for except in cases of painful terminal conditions, I don't see much medical efficacy for high THC MJ - although further research may find some. However, in such terminal cases usually opiods work OK without having to worry about addiction. So, in short I see virtually no societal benefit to high THC MJ. Further, there are studies which connect MJ use to brain damage in youths, lung cancer and other ailments. I think it best to just keep it illegal, and discourage its use. So in this sense I don't really favor the proposed bill either - it seems to discourage high CBD cannabis too much while allowing high THC MJ use in the form of oils, etc. By not allowing unregulated private grows, I think we could avoid the problems you are describing in CO, while allowing true medical use. The problem as I see it is that the money in recreational MJ will continue to present continual pressure on whatever system is put in place for medical use.

You are wrong that there is no need for high THC. It's more needed then you think, surprised that you didn't see that in your research. In fact you aren't going to cure some cancers without higher THC, won't happen. 

From reading your post, I feel sorry for you and others that are so rigid in your thinking and for your acceptance of pharma only. So sad how you are missing out on possibly the biggest chance of eliminating many ailments/cancers/opioid abuse.

[provoman]

2 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Hi from smoky Colorado.  We did it first, and we did it worst.  Utah is learning from us hopefully, and won't be making the same mistakes we did.  For the love of pete - do not, repeat, NOT, amend y'alls constitution to include growing MJ for personal use (medical or otherwise).  That has screwed with us royally.  The Cartels (and others) have moved in bigtime.  They are very good businessmen.  It's not the violent bloodbath we were worried about, but it is a reason Colorado has rental prices going through the roof, and a lot of rental property owners are stuck with tens of thousands of dollars of damage.

Here's how it works:

- Go rent six to ten homes somewhere.  Hopefully out in the middle of nowhere on acreage with a barn, but plain old houses in neighborhoods will do also.
- Start by going to an MJ doctor and get a prescription.  That allows you to legally grow 99 plants instead of the 3 everyone gets.  There are half a dozen docs in the state happy to sell you a medical recommendation for $500.
- Bring in $10-$20k of equipment per house.  The plants need about a gallon of water each per day, they need lots and lots of light, and air circulation.  
- Install your equipment.  Feel free to modify plumbing and electric to suit your needs.  Feel free to drill holes through the floor.  The lights put off a lot of heat, so go ahead and install 3-4 commercial-grade air conditioners - just drill the ductwork straight through the side of the house.  The water will put off a lot of moisture - don't worry about the black mold that will spread through the house - you'll only be here for one, maybe two growing seasons. And it won't be you doing the growing and harvesting, it'll be the undocumented illegals you've pressed into indentured servitude.
- You get your workforce from south of the border.  It's a deal for them - you pay them enough to stay alive, and if they work for three full grow cycles, you promise them $5,000 so they can bring their family.
- One grow cycle is about 90 days. 

Let's do some math. Start up - $10-$50k gets you:
   Water costs: up to 99 gal/day for 90 days ~8,000 gallons.  
   Electricity costs: Grow lights + air conditioners
   Rental costs: You'll pay whatever they ask.  $3000/mo for a crappy old 2 bedroom house in bad shape?  No problem.  

If you know what you're doing, each 90 day grow cycle will produce 500 lbs or more of MJ.  Sell it in Colorado for $1,400/lb ($700k), or move it to another state and sell it for $4,000/lb ($2 million).  Every 90 days.

Oh, after you're done with your second crop and you've started your third grow, tip off the cops on your houses.  They show up and arrest and deport your workforce, and you're off the hook for their $5k bonus.  The cops are closing in on you anyway, because neighbors are starting to report the smell and the 4 AC units running nonstop even though it's 40 degrees outside, and you blew out the neighborhood electrical transformer because of your lights.  Utility companies are closing in on you with their on-site verification, and although they're wary of getting tagged as a snitch and being killed by you, they'll be here eventually.

Does everyone get the math here?  For a $50k investment, you make upwards of $3-4 million in 180 days.  Per house.  It's all cash, no taxes.  You destroy a few houses in the process, but they're not your houses.   What kind of idiot passes up a chance to make a few million dollars tax free in six months?  Thanks Colorado!   (If you want to be legit, own and maintain your grow locations, and pay 20-30% taxes, you can make maybe $100k-300k a year in Colorado.)  

 

I had this all explained to me by the Colorado Springs vice cop running their MJ operation.  They've got 6 cops and a Sargent working 4 days a week, doing nothing but busting illegal grow ops.  They served 100 warrants last year, each one of them a story like I just told you.  This is just in one city in Colorado.  He showed us the pictures of the homes, the mold, the air conditioning units, the holes drilled through the floor, results of the electrical fires.   Some of these growers are so good at it, their plants are like small trees, you have to use a chain saw to cut the trunk.  

I had parts of this story verified by the 2nd counselor in my bishopric, a guy named Sean, with a rental property.  The cops called him one day, and called him over to his property, where he discovered his destroyed rental unit.  That was a fun two weeks for him. 

So yeah Utah, take a good dang hard look at Colorado.  Don't make the same mistakes we're making.  No matter where you stand on medical MJ, open up your dang eyes before you vote yourdangselves into the same dang situation we're in.  It's almost enough to make this little LDS boy cuss.

So, you were wondering why the church has been supporting y'alls proposition 2?  Now you know a bit more than you did before. 

Please explain what is wrong? Criminals will always be around and no amount of laws will stop that.

So a person has a choice in CO. to earn millions tax free or a few hundred thousand. 

A criminal will always weigh the options.

What you posted, is in my opinion not relevant to a the discussion of medical marijuana in the State of Uath. 

People from Utah need to look to AZ - large LDS population AND medical marijuana. 

[provoman]

23 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

A number of people very close to me have been defiled by pot.

Wisdom and order in all things. A person close to me has been defiled by all manner of legal substances; but that does not mean I need to take a prohibition stance on ever legal substance that was part of the abuse.

[provoman]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The Univ of Utah has had a research project for a number of years in which they inject cannabinoids into children with seizures.  Seems to calm the brain.

 

Edited October 24, 2018 by provoman

[RevTestament]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

You are wrong that there is no need for high THC. It's more needed then you think, surprised that you didn't see that in your research. In fact you aren't going to cure some cancers without higher THC, won't happen. 

From reading your post, I feel sorry for you and others that are so rigid in your thinking and for your acceptance of pharma only. So sad how you are missing out on possibly the biggest chance of eliminating many ailments/cancers/opioid abuse.

Tacenda, I never said I support pharma only. In fact I said I felt the proposed Utah bill would discourage use of true CBD medical strains. What I mean is that pharma only channels would be costly and therefore serve to make CBD strains less available. Perhaps you should read what I said closer. 

If high THC strains show actual statistically significant cancer cures, they can always be legalized. However, a couple of anecdotal cases just are not statistically significant when we know cases of spontaneous remission occur - when people find out they have cancer they change their habits - they begin to eat healthier, they do all sorts of things which may cause the cancer to go into remission. Point me to a controlled study, and I may become more sympathetic.

If I didn't think the high THC strains would get abused, I would say fine, but there is credible evidence of societal harm they cause, while there is little credible evidence of their benefit. We have been through this conversation before where I asked you to show a society which has benefited by recreational use. You had no response.

[pogi]

58 minutes ago, oremites said:

I appreciate your additional comments, but I don't think you can link the "encouraging the defilement of men" comment to the legalization question in any way.

If it would help, imagine President Kimball adding this to his comments above - "To be clear, I'm only speaking about the recreational use of marijuana and not addressing the issue of legalization or medicinal use."  He may or may not have thought that legalization would equate to the "defilement" but we don't know that.

Yes, leaders attitudes change over time, but this is not an example of it.  Would church leaders today say that the recreational use of marijuana is OK?

You can be for the legalization of marijuana (even for recreational use) as a matter of liberty and not feel rebuked by President Kimball as "encouraging the defilement of men" because that's not what he was talking about.

I guess we read it differently.  I don't see how you can't link that comment to the legalization question.  I agree that he was talking about recreational use, by the way.

Quote

 

From among the discordant voices we are shocked at those of many priests who encourage the defilement of men and wink at the eroding trends and who deny the omniscience of God. Certainly these men should be holding firm, yet some yield to popular clamor.

 

He seems to be saying that a vote for legalization is equal to encouraging the defilement of men...  What else would he be talking about here?

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

A number of people very close to me have been defiled by pot.

Me too.  I still stand by what I said though.  A vote for legalization of marijuana is not the same as encouraging the defilement of men... 

I have met WAY more people who have been defiled by alcohol...and it is also true that a vote for the legalization of alcohol is not the same as encouraging the defilement of men.

[oremites]

9 minutes ago, pogi said:

He seems to be saying that a vote for legalization is equal to encouraging the defilement of men...  What else would he be talking about here?

He was talking about the morality of smoking pot.  The Time article he quoted was about that, not about legalization.  Though there were people pushing for legalization at that time, it was not a big issue.  Why would he be talking about "a vote for legalization" when it wasn't even a voting issue back then?

I think we're going to have to just agree to disagree on this one.  That is, you're welcome to the last word because I'm out for the day.  Thanks for the discussion.

[Robert F. Smith]

52 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Tacenda, I never said I support pharma only. In fact I said I felt the proposed Utah bill would discourage use of true CBD medical strains. What I mean is that pharma only channels would be costly and therefore serve to make CBD strains less available. Perhaps you should read what I said closer. 

If high THC strains show actual statistically significant cancer cures, they can always be legalized. However, a couple of anecdotal cases just are not statistically significant when we know cases of spontaneous remission occur - when people find out they have cancer they change their habits - they begin to eat healthier, they do all sorts of things which may cause the cancer to go into remission. Point me to a controlled study, and I may become more sympathetic.

If I didn't think the high THC strains would get abused, I would say fine, but there is credible evidence of societal harm they cause, while there is little credible evidence of their benefit. We have been through this conversation before where I asked you to show a society which has benefited by recreational use. You had no response.

But the question is not really whether there is actual, provable medical benefit from this or that use of THC.  That is a good and worthwhile question for investigation, but largely irrelevant.  Why?  Because people (lots of people) love their recreational drugs, and it is foolish to attempt to engage in an anti-drug war -- which only makes the situation much worse.  What we need is regulated and taxed recreational drug use, just as we do with cigarettes and booze.  We make the best of a bad situation.  That is all we can rationally expect to do.

Creating a nanny state or society doesn't make for a strong society, but weakens us and our free institutions significantly.  Too many of us give only grudging lip service to the principle of free agency, free choice.  Legislating morality in the form of Blue Laws is a crutch for those who don't really like a free and open society.