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Greed and the prosperity gospel.


poptart

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Figured this is as good a place as any to post something like this, many of you are parents and have to deal with things like this.  Also, something I always appreciate about this place, you're honest.  So, how does the prosperity gospel/doctrine affect your religious experience?  It's always been a puzzling experience for me considering Jesus was not only poor by worldly standards, but was not this white and delightsome person so many people here assume he is.  That being said, the whole "God favors you, that's why your rich" concept always puzzled me.  You use your wealth as a cudgel for your hubris, brush off criticism with phrases such as I'm not perfect, just forgiven then when you get it thrown back in your face you hear things along the lines of "Christianity!! (My own take on it...) Is under attack!!"  or my favorite "The end is near!"  Come on, Americans have yet to experience the hell that their European forebears did, we've yet to have something like the 30 years war, the persecutions they had in England and France not to mention the other countless slaughters Christians in what's now Turkey died in.  Don't take this the wrong way, most of you are wonderful people who do care for the less fortunate, but I do have to wonder what some of you think about greed and the prosperity gospel.  Going to guess most of you dislike it (Good for you!), I'm curious what your thoughts and experiences are.  Reason why I started the first sentence with the you are parents part is, well, a lot of the parents i've seen, growing up and now sure have egos and entitlement complexes.  Just my personal observation, but when you use your children as an excuse for your poor behavior and leverage to get more out of society, I have to wonder.  Are you leaning off your parents success?  The success story that is the USA?  (We beat Rome in the empire building game, doubt anyone for a long time will top the USA) or just plain old hubris that comes from living in a relatively safe society that still has decent police? 

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3 hours ago, poptart said:

.................................  Reason why I started the first sentence with the you are parents part is, well, a lot of the parents i've seen, growing up and now sure have egos and entitlement complexes.  Just my personal observation, but when you use your children as an excuse for your poor behavior and leverage to get more out of society, I have to wonder.  Are you leaning off your parents success?  The success story that is the USA?  (We beat Rome in the empire building game, doubt anyone for a long time will top the USA) or just plain old hubris that comes from living in a relatively safe society that still has decent police? 

While it is undeniable that white folk have it much easier in American society than minority groups, it is also true that the hard, pioneering phase of Mormonism, and the Great Depression, were not so long ago, and many intermountain West Mormons are still quite humble and ordinary.  They still sacrifice much money and time to minister to the poor masses around the globe, and to bring them into the fold.

Rich, crude, and rude Americans do have an attitude problem, and they do quaff their booze in large quantities.  They also hate Mormons.  We simply don't share their perverted and sick preferences.  Going to see "The Book of Mormon" musical makes them feel smug and superior, but they will sell this country down the river in a heartbeat.  Right, wrong, and the Constitution mean nothing to them.  They're in it for themselves.  That's all.

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I have never encountered the greed and prosperity gospel of which you speak. Well, maybe I am greedy. Many of my grown grandkids think that I don't give them enough of my (apparently infinite) resources. I am aware that even as a kid myself I had so much more than many others do, and I also realize that I have not really suffered in my life, although chemo was crappy.

I wish I could do more to help others, but I have trouble just taking care of the circle of people that depend on me right now. I just don't worry about the greed and prosperity of anyone else. I've got this huge beam in my eye.

Glenn

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16 hours ago, poptart said:

Jesus was not only poor by worldly standards,

I don't know that the record bears this out.  But perhaps another thread.

I should probably disclose that I absolutely am on a quest to become monetarily rich.  But I'd like to think that I am aware of the blessings I currently have, and rest in them.  I'm imperfect in that attitude, but I do return to it often.

I think part of my growth in this life is to understand that God is not only in any 'good' in life (whether money or some other favor), but that God is in EVERYTHING in life.  When we are suffering, it doesn't mean that God is missing.  Vice versa, the presence of some sort of ecstasy (and whatever induced that ecstasy, such as a lot of money) doesn't mean that God is there 'extra' (although he is in everything).  And often, ecstasy will be our leading astray, and taking up a cross will lead to our grace and peace.

I think we often have an 'appeasement' relationship with God--if I do this perhaps he will reward me, or at least not punish me.  But, again, often continued personal growth leads us out of this dichotomy and into a more whole rest that life is about how we can grow and and how we can serve others.  Blessings will be a natural outgrowth of this, but not in the sense of a reward.  It's about who we become, not what we get.

Edited by Maidservant
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12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

While it is undeniable that white folk have it much easier in American society than minority groups, it is also true that the hard, pioneering phase of Mormonism, and the Great Depression, were not so long ago, and many intermountain West Mormons are still quite humble and ordinary.  They still sacrifice much money and time to minister to the poor masses around the globe, and to bring them into the fold.

Rich, crude, and rude Americans do have an attitude problem, and they do quaff their booze in large quantities.  They also hate Mormons.  We simply don't share their perverted and sick preferences.  Going to see "The Book of Mormon" musical makes them feel smug and superior, but they will sell this country down the river in a heartbeat.  Right, wrong, and the Constitution mean nothing to them.  They're in it for themselves.  That's all.

The pioneer days had to suck.  Think about the only way i'd be happy if I was alive back then would be if I could be a mountain main or something.  Jeremiah liver eatin' Johnson is still one of my personal favs.

 

Oh, don't forget cheat on their spouses, swindle their kids out of anything and otherwise make the world a worse place!

1 hour ago, Maidservant said:

I don't know that the record bears this out.  But perhaps another thread.

I should probably disclose that I absolutely am on a quest to become monetarily rich.  But I'd like to think that I am aware of the blessings I currently have, and rest in them.  I'm imperfect in that attitude, but I do return to it often.

I think part of my growth in this life is to understand that God is not only in any 'good' in life (whether money or some other favor), but that God is in EVERYTHING in life.  When we are suffering, it doesn't mean that God is missing.  Vice versa, the presence of some sort of ecstasy (and whatever induced that ecstasy, such as a lot of money) doesn't mean that God is there 'extra' (although he is in everything).  And often, ecstasy will be our leading astray, and taking up a cross will lead to our grace and peace.

I think we often have an 'appeasement' relationship with God--if I do this perhaps he will reward me, or at least no punish me.  But, again, often continued personal growth leads us out of this dichotomy and into a more whole rest that life is about how we can grow and and how we can serve others.  Blessings will be a natural outgrowth of this, but not in the sense of a reward.  It's about who we become, not what we get.

I'm out to get rich too!  But, i'm not out there saying Jesus wants me to be rich.  That's all on me.

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11 hours ago, poptart said:

I'll admit it, I'm a total machiavellian capitalist, I say it with pride ^_^  If anyone ever calls me out on it, may pull something like this....

 

Aww, well, to be clear, I was referring to myself mainly.  I wouldn't say God's favor is in my richness or that he calls me to it.  I wouldn't say he is opposed to it necessarily either.  Pesky agency :).

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Prosperity Gospel Preacher: God wants you to be wealthy. If you follow God and give to my ministry so I can buy a second private plane he will pay off your mortgage for you and make you wealthy.

Jesus: If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

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20 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The Prosperity Gospel damns anyone who believes in it. I have met a few LDS who believe in something similar to it but thankfully they are few. Those who are profiting off selling it to others (most not LDS) are almost certainly going to hell.

What is the Prosperity Gospel, as you understand it?  Up until poptart's topic here, I hadn't ever given the PG much thought.  It was more or less, just words that floated about.

I just looked it up:

"Prosperity theology (sometimes referred to as the prosperity gospel, the health and wealth gospel, the gospel of success or seed faith)[A] is a religious belief among some Christians, who hold that financial blessing and physical well-being are always the will of God for them, and that faith, positive speech, and donations to religious causes will increase one's material wealth. Prosperity theology views the Bible as a contract between God and humans: if humans have faith in God, he will deliver security and prosperity."  - From Wikipedia

Is this consistent with what you call the PG?

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4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

What is the Prosperity Gospel, as you understand it?  Up until poptart's topic here, I hadn't ever given the PG much thought.  It was more or less, just words that floated about.

I just looked it up:

"Prosperity theology (sometimes referred to as the prosperity gospel, the health and wealth gospel, the gospel of success or seed faith)[A] is a religious belief among some Christians, who hold that financial blessing and physical well-being are always the will of God for them, and that faith, positive speech, and donations to religious causes will increase one's material wealth. Prosperity theology views the Bible as a contract between God and humans: if humans have faith in God, he will deliver security and prosperity."  - From Wikipedia

Is this consistent with what you call the PG?

That's the gist of it, thing is it often turns into something like this.....

 

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13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Prosperity Gospel Preacher: God wants you to be wealthy. If you follow God and give to my ministry so I can buy a second private plane he will pay off your mortgage for you and make you wealthy.

Jesus: If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

*Fistbump

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14 hours ago, Maidservant said:

Aww, well, to be clear, I was referring to myself mainly.  I wouldn't say God's favor is in my richness or that he calls me to it.  I wouldn't say he is opposed to it necessarily either.  Pesky agency :).

Suuuure Jezus doesn't want to give you a new jet?  Might as well get a return on investment for that agency...

 

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Don't forget that when you donate ( under pressure ) taxes, the politicians and officials get to use it  for private jets and great pension and health plans. The media finds no real problem with this, but when a guy uses voluntary donations for personal benefit and outright says what the money will be used for, well, it is just terrible.

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4 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Don't forget that when you donate ( under pressure ) taxes, the politicians and officials get to use it  for private jets and great pension and health plans. The media finds no real problem with this, but when a guy uses voluntary donations for personal benefit and outright says what the money will be used for, well, it is just terrible.

People (well, those with a bit of sense....) expect it.  Look at elections, most of our choices are awful.  I want a president who respects religious liberty, will defend us against our enemies, will do what he can to keep corrupt entities and other vile personages in check, do what he can to help the least of these with a hand up, not a hand out, aaaaand not only encourage our right to keep and bear arms, but also further that fine American tradition.  All for gender equality, but I’m a firm believer that Mother Nature has 2 genders, deal with it.  I've heard teachers talk about how 9 year old boys thought they were gay and the parents decided they should go with hormone replacement therapy when ready.  I say parents like that should be jailed.  9 year old boys should be doing boy things, fishing, shooting bb guns, getting ready for their first .22 long rifle, not deciding what gender they are.  Make me prez and that's the first thing I'll defend within an inch of my life, the right for children to be children the way mother nature and God intended, in a natural and healthy fashion.  This all ties into why I despise corrupt religious authorities.  Duh!  They're expected to be better than us!  When anyone calls people to prayer who do they look to when all else fails?  The clergy!  Men of God/Deity are the bridge we have between this mortal plane and the divine, that which we cannot understand yet not only claim origin too, but also guidance in how to live our lives in accordance with his/her will and or how we should honor the gods, our elder kin.  We assume politicians like us are all fallible.  I'm not the biggest Trump fan but he is our commander in chief, makes me cringe the disrespect people have.  Granted, people hung effigies of Obama and well, gave good ole "W" no end of harassment but still, wow.....
I remember as a kid I went to church (Would sometimes get dragged as a kid, usually when mom reminded my father when he was hungover and he figured since he had to be hungover and miserable my 10 year old backside did too, minus the hangover on my part). and that awesome Lutheran pastor gave the congregation a good look and reminded us of our God given order to obey authority and not judge those who He had given authority over us.  Can't recall the verses he referenced, but you get the idea.  Sure enough, esp. considering the times, place was packed with people, esp. men who probably partied out of their minds and after they found their "godly" spouse (after a long, drawn out period of debauchery) that they would go back to their denomination of baptism and well, play along.  I miss that pastor, if I had gone to college in the same town I'd probably have ended up a Lutheran Pastor and well, would be an even bigger loud mouth than I am now, at least on line anyway....

Point is, I give religious people a lot more respect, believe it or not.  They are the ones who are supposed to be there for us when all else fails, when the world abandons us.  I'd much rather have an LDS bishop, someone from the quorum, a priest and/or a dedicated religious figure than some super successful businessman, master hunter or any other person from the secular realm in a moment of need for this reason, they're expected to be the better man and I'd open up to them a lot faster than anyone else.  They're supposed to be the example, the standard so no matter what I’d offer then my respect and reverence and be grateful for what council I could get, and that is why I say bring the hammer down on those who exploit that office. 

 

 

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On 9/23/2018 at 3:57 PM, strappinglad said:

Don't forget that when you donate ( under pressure ) taxes, the politicians and officials get to use it  for private jets and great pension and health plans. The media finds no real problem with this, but when a guy uses voluntary donations for personal benefit and outright says what the money will be used for, well, it is just terrible.

The government, by definition, does not own private jets. Now some politicians and political parties might buy or lease a plane with campaign contributions or their salary or whatever but that is a different matter.

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2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The government, by definition, does not own private jets. Now some politicians and political parties might buy or lease a plane with campaign contributions or their salary or whatever but that is a different matter.

They don't have to own a private jet to have the use of one as and when needed. And just for S&G , what was spent on the US official presence at Mandela's funeral ? One Canadian official ( with an aid or two) spent  $ 45 K.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/02/05/redford-mandela-funeral_n_4733753.html

For comparison , a round trip ticket Washington to Johanesburg  is about $1200 economy to $6000+ first class.

I'm just saying, private money vs public money...not even close to the same outrage.

Edited by strappinglad
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2 hours ago, strappinglad said:

They don't have to own a private jet to have the use of one as and when needed. And just for S&G , what was spent on the US official presence at Mandela's funeral ? One Canadian official ( with an aid or two) spent  $ 45 K.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/02/05/redford-mandela-funeral_n_4733753.html

For comparison , a round trip ticket Washington to Johanesburg  is about $1200 economy to $6000+ first class.

I'm just saying, private money vs public money...not even close to the same outrage.

I have more outrage at priestcraft then I do at regular government functions. If that makes me strange so be it.

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5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The government, by definition, does not own private jets. Now some politicians and political parties might buy or lease a plane with campaign contributions or their salary or whatever but that is a different matter.

When Nancy Pelosi was Speaker of the House, she forced the Air Force to fly expensive cargo planes to shuttle her and all her family back and forth between D.C. and San Francisco and anyplace else.  The expense ran into millions of dollars.  The Obama administration also lived high off the hog jetting to 5-star resorts numerous times bringing their personal staff of hundreds (besides regular administration officials).  They even flew their pets on separate planes.

Congress people get huge benefits from lobbyists (like Jack Abramoff).  "If you'll scratch my back, I'll scratch your back" . . . cronyism at many levels . . . the Deep State has long been entrenched, just look at Jamie Gorelick, a floating bureaucrat . . . she is a millionaire . . .

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Before this thread gets shut down , I am going to put this on the record. I did a calculation ( yes , I have no life !) Based on the thickness of a $ 10 bill, a million dollar stack of 10s would be 43 inches tall. Imagine you are driving on a road where ,on each side there lay these stacks end to end. So each mile would have just under 3 billion dollars on it. In a thousand miles of road there would be 3 trillion dollars. It would take about 7,000 miles of road to get to the current US debt. Big numbers like trillions are hard for most to wrap their minds around, but this image may help. Priestcraft surely has done damage to individuals. Government policies ,aided by corrupt politicians , the military/industrial complex and an  entitled citizenry have put entire nations at risk.

A lesson from history : http://money.visualcapitalist.com/currency-and-the-collapse-of-the-roman-empire/

currently: Venezuela inflation running at 100,000 %

 

Edited by strappinglad
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4 hours ago, longview said:

When Nancy Pelosi was Speaker of the House, she forced the Air Force to fly expensive cargo planes to shuttle her and all her family back and forth between D.C. and San Francisco and anyplace else.  The expense ran into millions of dollars.  The Obama administration also lived high off the hog jetting to 5-star resorts numerous times bringing their personal staff of hundreds (besides regular administration officials).  They even flew their pets on separate planes.

Congress people get huge benefits from lobbyists (like Jack Abramoff).  "If you'll scratch my back, I'll scratch your back" . . . cronyism at many levels . . . the Deep State has long been entrenched, just look at Jamie Gorelick, a floating bureaucrat . . . she is a millionaire . . .

Don't drink too much Kool-Aid without running some simple fact checks: https://www.factcheck.org/2008/12/nancy-pelosis-personal-jet/

There is some truth to the story but it has been twisted beyond recognition and the version you give has been thoroughly debunked. But slandering others via exaggeration is surely not a sin right? Note I am not a Pelosi fan and dislike many of her decisions and hope the Democratic party gets new House leadership soon. I am just in favor of actually having authentic reasons to dislike her rather then "fake news". That term might be giving this too much credence though. How about "internet gossip"?

I find your one-party attack kind of inane considering how many of the officials of the current administration are or were being investigated for misuse of federal funds including the use of taxpayer money for non-job related travel and hotel stays and their transgressions are more recent. Almost as if you have a partisan ax to grind.......

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