Near Death Experiences and Out of Body Experiences

[Glenn101]

   In a recent thread on faith and reason being compatible, stargazer linked to a FAIR presentation by Daniel Peterson in which Dan related the story of one Pam Reynolds who had an out of body experience (OBE) and a near death experience (NDE) while undergoing surgery to remove an aneurysm. I had done very little reading on the phenomenon before that because in most discussions I have perused on the matter beforehand, it has always been stated with assurance that every facet of an NDE or OBE could be explained by hallucinations induced by oxygen deprivation or drugs administered during the course of a medical procedure. However, the Pam Reynolds case is a curious one because her eyelids were taped shut during the surgery, molded speakers were inserted into her ears and carefully taped up to muffle external noises, her body temperature was lowered to sixty degrees, her heart was completely stopped, and she was "flatlined" during the actual removal of the aneurysm. Yet she had an OBE where she was able to accurately describe visually what was going on and even the instrument with which the surgeon used to cut open her scalp and the case "like a socket case" with the attachments for the instrument. Is this rational evidence establishing that the mind, the conscious mind, is not the brain itself but something else, something separate?

Blame this one on the fact that I have to get up at five thirty in the mornings to get my granddaughter off to school and am having to wait until my wife gets up so I can apply a bit of medication to some of her aching places. I am not foolish enough to awaken a sleeping lady before her time.

Glenn

[CV75]

All I know is that I've had many a Near Body Experience (on the subway). I think everyone at some point has a Far Out Death Experience.

[Kevin Christensen]

I've thought so.  One of the first NDE books after Moody's Life after Life triggered modern research was Michael Sabom's Recollections of Death.   He did a set of interviews with people who reported watching their own resuscitation, and found that while they got all the details right, a control group all made major mistakes.

I did an essay comparing Alma's Nigh Unto Death conversion to modern NDE accounts, including the aftereffects, and found they they fit perfectly.  That's here:

https://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1382&index=2

And it matters that Alma is the one who teaches about the afterlife in the Book and Mormon.

It also matters that Brigham Young is the one who teaches the most detailed and particular accounts about the afterlife in LDS tradition, and that he apparently had an NDE at Winter Quarters.

So that ought to lead us to reconsider the material in "The Spirit World" chapter of the Teachings of Brigham Young priesthood manual.

https://www.lds.org/manual/...

The source of his insights is not scripture, tradition or speculation but personal experience. And the most likely occasion for that experience was Brigham's vision of Joseph Smith, while very ill in Winter Quarters, 17 February 1847.

https://www.sunstonemagazin...

 

Edited September 4, 2018 by Kevin Christensen

[Robert F. Smith]

I was far more impressed by the personal NDE/OBE experience of psychiatrist George C. Ritchie, Return from Tomorrow (1978), which was Dr Moody's first experience with the subject.

"Death is nothing more than a doorway, something you walk through."  George C. Ritchie

[Glenn101]

4 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

It also matters that Brigham Young is the one who teaches the most detailed and particular accounts about the afterlife in LDS tradition, and that he apparently had an NDE at Winter Quarters.

So that ought to lead us to reconsider the material in "The Spirit World" chapter of the Teachings of Brigham Young priesthood manual.

I had never examined Brigham's remarks in the light of a possible NDE before. It is intriguing to say the least.

This is a subject I am going to delve in a bit more deeply. I did read your essay also. There is a lot of stuff to think about there.

Glenn

[Bernard Gui]

I have a close LDS friend who has been a hospice nurse for many years. His experiences with people at the time of their death have confirmed for him the reality of the afterlife. Any hospice nurses here?

[Jeanne]

I had an OBE in my twenties.  I actually felt my spirit leave the body...I walked to a wall in the basement living room...could still touch so turned around and went back to my body.  There were no drugs or anything..I simply just slipped away.  I must say...it was a wonderful feeling.  No lights, or tunnels further ..but I guess it was just not my time or whatever.  I must say that I did not want to return to that body and it was painful to do so.

[Glenn101]

On 9/4/2018 at 12:11 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

I was far more impressed by the personal NDE/OBE experience of psychiatrist George C. Ritchie, Return from Tomorrow (1978), which was Dr Moody's first experience with the subject.

"Death is nothing more than a doorway, something you walk through."  George C. Ritchie

I just read that book. There are some really interesting things in it. The bar where spirits would jump into passed out drunks and those that were trying to grab cigarettes. The segment on spirits of people that had committed suicide is also interesting. The whole thing sort of coincides with Brigham Young's statement "If the Lord would permit it, and it was his will that it should be done, you could see the spirits that have departed from this world, as plainly as you now see bodies with your natural eyes" in chapter 38 of "Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young." Most of those spirits would supposedly be in the spirit prison, but we do not know what that looks like.

Glenn

[katherine the great]

5 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

I just read that book. There are some really interesting things in it. The bar where spirits would jump into passed out drunks and those that were trying to grab cigarettes. The segment on spirits of people that had committed suicide is also interesting. The whole thing sort of coincides with Brigham Young's statement "If the Lord would permit it, and it was his will that it should be done, you could see the spirits that have departed from this world, as plainly as you now see bodies with your natural eyes" in chapter 38 of "Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young." Most of those spirits would supposedly be in the spirit prison, but we do not know what that looks like.

Glenn

Maybe that is what spirit prison is--spirits who are chained to this world in a sense because they can't let go yet.

[Glenn101]

51 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

Maybe that is what spirit prison is--spirits who are chained to this world in a sense because they can't let go yet.

Possibly. I doubt very much that it is one that has bars. Maybe bars of our own making though.

Glenn

[6EQUJ5]

NDEs are a trick of Satan. They contain just enough truth to drag people in.  I know people who are now bankrupt due to Julie Rowe's so-called NDE.

[The Nehor]

13 hours ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

NDEs are a trick of Satan. They contain just enough truth to drag people in.  I know people who are now bankrupt due to Julie Rowe's so-called NDE.

How do you make money off of fake NDEs. Asking for a friend.

[Eek!]

On ‎9‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 12:22 AM, 6EQUJ5 said:

NDEs are a trick of Satan. They contain just enough truth to drag people in.  I know people who are now bankrupt due to Julie Rowe's so-called NDE.

Imo that's a rather broad brush you're painting with.  I know nothing about Julie Rowe, but...

- Alma apparently had a near-death (or near-death-like) experience

- Brigham Young apparently had a near-death experience

- King Lamoni and his wife both apparently had near-death-like experiences

- King Lamoni's father apparently had a near-death-like experience

 - Paul apparently had a near-death-like experience 

- Joseph F. Smith's Vision of the Redemption of the Dead would fall into the category of a near-death-like experience

I'm having a hard time seeing the hand of Satan as the universal common denominator. 

Edited September 7, 2018 by Eek!

[katherine the great]

23 hours ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

NDEs are a trick of Satan. They contain just enough truth to drag people in.  I know people who are now bankrupt due to Julie Rowe's so-called NDE.

Nah. I seriously doubt Satan manufactures NDEs. People who have them say they are more real than anything that happens in this life. However, he may be tempting people to believe that a person reporting an NDE is a prophet. (seems a bit naive to me but I'm a bit of a skeptic)

[Alan]

One of the best accounts I have read on this subject is Return from Tomorrow by George Ritchie.

Although not LDS, his account is very supportive of our doctrinal position.

[Gray]

Interesting scientific look at out-of-body experiences:

 

[Jeanne]

8 hours ago, Alan said:

One of the best accounts I have read on this subject is Return from Tomorrow by George Ritchie.

Although not LDS, his account is very supportive of our doctrinal position.

I loved this book.  It helped me through a troubled time with observations of real things not basic to any religion.

[Eek!]

15 hours ago, Gray said:

Interesting scientific look at out-of-body experiences:

 

Very interesting video.   Thanks!

When I played judo, we would watch for the same sequence of events if we were being choked.   First comes tunnel vision, then everything goes black but you can still hear, and then about two seconds later you just go to sleep.  So we would keep our eyes wide open and fight the choke even after tunnel vision sets in, but soon as everything goes black we would tap out.  A good choke could put you out in about eight seconds.  It didn't necessarily hurt while you were being choked so you had to keep your eyes wide open and pay attention to your vision to monitor how things were going.  Some people still wouldn't tap in time and would go to sleep with their eyes wide open. 

Being blacked out by g-forces in a centrifuge sounds VASTLY more violent!

I disagree with the narrator's final summation:  "The brain is just confused at having lost the body."  That may explain the dreamlets, but I don't think it begins to explain actually seeing yourself from an outside-the-body perspective. 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Eek!

[Gray]

7 hours ago, Eek! said:

I disagree with the narrator's final summation:  "The brain is just confused at having lost the body."  That may explain the dreamlets, but I don't think it begins to explain actually seeing yourself from an outside-the-body perspective.

Some people do experience an outside of the body perspective in the centrifuge (mentioned near the end of the video). Some also experience the classic tunnel with light at the end of it. This tends to happen during the most intense blackouts.

[Eek!]

Ooops hit the wrong button, meant to edit my post instead of replying to it.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Eek!

[Stargazer]

On 9/6/2018 at 6:22 AM, 6EQUJ5 said:

NDEs are a trick of Satan. They contain just enough truth to drag people in.  I know people who are now bankrupt due to Julie Rowe's so-called NDE.

The world is full of religious and other kinds of charlatans who try to make money off people's credulity.  Just because Julie Rowe was a charlatan (if she was), doesn't make NDEs a tool of Satan.  Plenty of people have lost money investing in failed enterprises, too, but this doesn't make capitalism a tool of Satan (unless you're a Marxist).

[Stargazer]

On 9/7/2018 at 6:16 AM, katherine the great said:

Nah. I seriously doubt Satan manufactures NDEs. People who have them say they are more real than anything that happens in this life. However, he may be tempting people to believe that a person reporting an NDE is a prophet. (seems a bit naive to me but I'm a bit of a skeptic)

The other question is, HOW would Satan manufacture an NDE?  Is he a particularly gifted special effects artist?  If he could do that, he'd certainly manufacture more than just NDEs.  Heck, people everywhere would be hallucinating about all kinds of things, and there would be chaos.  🙂 

[6EQUJ5]

On 9/6/2018 at 1:14 PM, Eek! said:

Imo that's a rather broad brush you're painting with.  I know nothing about Julie Rowe, but...

- Alma apparently had a near-death (or near-death-like) experience

- Brigham Young apparently had a near-death experience

- King Lamoni and his wife both apparently had near-death-like experiences

- King Lamoni's father apparently had a near-death-like experience

 - Paul apparently had a near-death-like experience 

- Joseph F. Smith's Vision of the Redemption of the Dead would fall into the category of a near-death-like experience

I'm having a hard time seeing the hand of Satan as the universal common denominator. 

It is disturbing that you are reducing heavenly visitations to mere random firing of neurons in the brain.  NDEs can be reproduced — IN THEIR ENTIRETY — in a lab environment.

You can’t summon Angels to the lab.

[Eek!]

On ‎9‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 12:22 AM, 6EQUJ5 said:

NDEs are a trick of Satan. 

 

22 hours ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

...mere random firing of neurons in the brain.  NDEs can be reproduced — IN THEIR ENTIRETY — in a lab environment.

Make up your mind.   Random neurons or Satan? 

Your two arguments against NDE's are mutually exclusive.   If it's random neurons, then Satan is not the cause.  And vice versa. 

Are NDE's so far outside of your comfort zone that any argument against them is a good one? 

Edited September 12, 2018 by Eek!

[carbon dioxide]

On 9/5/2018 at 11:22 PM, 6EQUJ5 said:

NDEs are a trick of Satan. They contain just enough truth to drag people in.  I know people who are now bankrupt due to Julie Rowe's so-called NDE.

NDE usually result in people making changes in their life for the better.  One can debate some of the messages or conclusions reached by those who have had these experiences but if Satan is behind these things, perhaps we should encourage this behavior from Satan and not some of the other stuff.