Missionaries and Discernment

[Jane_Doe]

6 hours ago, Navidad said:

When I am called Brother Phil by all the folks in the ward, I would like to know what that means. Brother in Christ as a fellow believer is very different from Brother in Christ as a fellow pre-mortal spirit. 

The title "Brother" is used for any adult male, as we are all spiritual brothers & sisters.

However, the brother in Christ use does work in this case as well-- as you are a Christian.  We acknowledge that, and celebrate it.  Your relationship with Christ, devotion to Him, and striving to follow Him are super valuable.  If any person walks away from a conversation with you and has furthered you down that path of follow Christ, it's a win.  And you on furthering them down the path.  You love and devotion of Christ are 100% to celebrate and nurture.  Fellowship is 100% there.

Now, do LDS have some theological differences?  Obviously.  From the LDS standpoint (actually I think any standpoint), knowing more Truth is always a good thing and encourages growth.  So LDS would indeed also celebrate if you learned more and embraced these Truths that give each of us joy.  From the LDS perspective it would also be great if you would be baptized with authority.  But either way (aka if you say "yes please" or "no thank you") we're still going to keep singing "Joy to the World" with you, a fellow Christian. 

 

[MiserereNobis]

On 8/29/2018 at 2:06 PM, mfbukowski said:

Evangelicals call us a "cult" and say we worship "another Jesus" and call us all kinds of things and we just kind of let it run off, because we don't care what they think- at least speaking for me!

I think that is mainly speaking for yourself. There are plenty of Mormons who get upset when evangelicals (or any other group) say that you worship another Jesus or that you are not Christians.

[MiserereNobis]

On 8/29/2018 at 2:16 PM, The Nehor said:

2. Only the LDS have a right to the continuous presence of the Holy Ghost (based on righteousness and obedience). Others can experience the Holy Ghost and we do not presume to dictate to a member of the Godhead who he wishes to communicate with.

 

Do you mind elaborating on this? Specifically, I'm interested in knowing what you mean by "a right to the continuous presence of the Holy Ghost" especially since you say you do not presume to dictate to a member of the Godhead. Isn't saying you have a right to his presence dictating to the Holy Ghost?

Also, can you explain the difference between a Mormon's experience of the Holy Ghost and another Christian's experience? What does it mean that the Holy Ghost is continually with Latter-day Saints but not continually with other Christians? What do you have that I don't, in a specific pragmatic daily way, when it comes to the Holy Ghost?

ETA: saying "I" probably makes this personal. What do you have that other Christians don't, in a specific pragmatic daily way, when it comes to the Holy Ghost?

Edited September 2, 2018 by MiserereNobis

[MiserereNobis]

On 8/29/2018 at 3:23 PM, mfbukowski said:

I don't want to derail the thread for a side note but many "Christian" groups do not accept Mormon baptism as "valid"- the Catholics being one

Well, you don't accept our baptisms as valid, so all is fair in love and war, eh?

 

[MiserereNobis]

On 8/29/2018 at 8:22 PM, mapman said:

The difference of experiencing the Spirit between Latter-day Saints and everyone else is a difference of degree not kind.

I'll connect this with my reply to The Nehor. What exactly do you mean by this? What difference in degree of experiencing the Holy Ghost do you have that I do not?

ETA: saying "I" probably makes this personal. What do you have that other Christians don't, in a specific pragmatic daily way, when it comes to the Holy Ghost?

Edited September 2, 2018 by MiserereNobis

[The Nehor]

19 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Do you mind elaborating on this? Specifically, I'm interested in knowing what you mean by "a right to the continuous presence of the Holy Ghost" especially since you say you do not presume to dictate to a member of the Godhead. Isn't saying you have a right to his presence dictating to the Holy Ghost?

Also, can you explain the difference between a Mormon's experience of the Holy Ghost and another Christian's experience? What does it mean that the Holy Ghost is continually with Latter-day Saints but not continually with other Christians? What do you have that I don't, in a specific pragmatic daily way, when it comes to the Holy Ghost?

ETA: saying "I" probably makes this personal. What do you have that other Christians don't, in a specific pragmatic daily way, when it comes to the Holy Ghost?

No, it is not dictating. God makes all kinds of promises. One promise is the Holy Ghost as a constant companion of you enter a certain covenant. If we made that promise on our own it would be the height of hubris.

The influence of the Holy Ghost can come to anyone. LDS have the right, if they love worthily, to its continuous presence. I would love to explain the difference but I do not love particularly worthily. There was a time many years ago when I was. The Holy Ghost was with me. It was a kind of optimistic mania but without the bad behavior in a conventional mania. It was like being bathed in contentment and joy. Answers from the heavens came easily or, if a God chose not to answer, I got that answer in a clear and kind way. I could feel the Holy Ghost as an actual presence all the time. I was not always conscious of it but when I checked it was there. That was my experience of it. I cannot promise others would describe it that way.

I have not thought about those days in a long time. I have felt it since but rarely with that intensity. I wish I could get back to what I had before. I just checked and that presence is there. More muted then back in those golden days but you cannot have everything I guess.

[Bernard Gui]

On 8/28/2018 at 4:56 PM, Navidad said:

Quick question - in missionary training is there anything that teaches missionaries to evaluate the spiritual condition of people to whom they are ministering? Is it possible for a missionary to spend time with a person and come to the conclusion that they are Christians, love the Lord, and are faithful in their faith, and then decide to move on without a sigh; without needing to "convert" them? Or is it simply a matter that everyone who is not a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints should be and therefore needs to be ministered to until they make the right decision - joining the Church? I am really trying to understand the nature of the LDS acceptance of other Christians as true brothers and sisters in Christ and not in just the sense that one day they were spirit brothers and sisters. Are missionaries taught to discern the spiritual condition of those with whom they come in contact?

In Heredia, Costa Rica, my companion and I sometimes stopped in a small restaurant to get a soft drink or food before going back to our house for the night. One evening, a waiter invited us to his home to talk about the Bible. He was a member of a small Mennonite community some distance out of town toward Volcán Poas. We visited him for several weeks and taught him our missionary discussions. We became good friends. I even played the small organ for their church service.

During one visit, he asked us what our Church thought about Jesus. We shared this experience of Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon recorded in Doctrine and Covenants Section 76:

Quote

22 And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!
23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father--
24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.

As we read that verse, the Holy Spirit flowed into the room like a gentle breeze. All three of us knew at that moment that this event really happened. With tears, we talked about how we felt. Afterward, we asked if he would like to be baptized. He declined saying he appreciated this new witness he had of Christ, but that he wanted to remain with his Mennonite people. We parted friends. We accepted each other as brothers in Christ. IIRC, I left the area shortly after that, and I don’t know what became of him. 

Edited September 2, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Navidad]

Hi Bernard - I appreciate and value your post. It is good you had exposure like that with another Christian. It is a shame you didn't have more contact with him, especially in his own church with his fellow Mennonite believers. It is possible, yea even likely you would have felt the same Holy Spirit moving in his congregation, perhaps even in a way you had not theretofore known or expected to find in a non-LDS setting. I have given up on arguments and counter-arguments. My sense after living, fellowshipping, worshiping, eating, planting trees, going to rodeos, praying, listening to, and learning from members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on many occasions is two things:

First, that they (collectively and individually) are more often than not representatives of a true and living Church of Jesus Christ. As I have said publicly in their midst, they are a branch of the true and living tree of Christianity. They have much to offer to other Christian individuals and groups. There is no question in my mind about that. I fully and completely embrace them as Christian brothers and sisters (not spirit brothers and sisters). Huge, ginormous, massive difference!

Second, that they are not especially special. B. Carmon Hardy a great LDS historian of the twentieth century said that the Saints were/are "cocooned," "victims of their own cultural encystment." He was referring to their lives here in Mexico, but I think it an apt metaphor in a broader sense. There is a sense of exceptionalism in the mindset of many Saints about their collective virtue and grasp of the only true truth that I think may not be fully deserved. I have come to the conclusion that the Saints as a body are more than I had previously believed, and less than they believe. My very wise and knowledgeable LDS friends and I were talking this week - for more almost three hours. I made a comment about how unfortunate I think it is that the Saints know so very little about the beliefs of other Christians. Much of what I hear is driven by stereotypes and bias. The late great LDS writer, Stephen Robinson often asked Evangelicals not to tell him what he believes. That is a repeated theme in his writings. Yet, even here on this board, and certainly in person, I often read from a faithful Mormon what Evangelicals believe. I am not asked; I am told. Sorry, I digress. In reply to my comment, one of my friends replied, '"That is true, but what is really sad is how little many of us know about our own faith." I thought that a candid and forthright acknowledgement. I have enjoyed speaking in a wide variety of evangelical and yes, fundamentalist churches. I have seen many denominations whose beliefs to one degree or another vary. I would simply suggest the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in its Sacrament Meetings, Sunday School, and Priesthood Quorum meetings fall comfortably in that mix. I make no claim that my Mennonite heritage, doctrine, or lifestyle is anything worthy of being thought of as exceptional - the best church in which to worship, fellowship and live, it is not. It is one of the good ones - along with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints!

 

Edited September 2, 2018 by Navidad
posted too quickly

[Bernard Gui]

13 hours ago, Navidad said:

Hi Bernard - I appreciate and value your post. It is good you had exposure like that with another Christian. It is a shame you didn't have more contact with him, especially in his own church with his fellow Mennonite believers. It is possible, yea even likely you would have felt the same Holy Spirit moving in his congregation, perhaps even in a way you had not theretofore known or expected to find in a non-LDS setting. I have given up on arguments and counter-arguments. My sense after living, fellowshipping, worshiping, eating, planting trees, going to rodeos, praying, listening to, and learning from members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on many occasions is two things:

First, that they (collectively and individually) are more often than not representatives of a true and living Church of Jesus Christ. As I have said publicly in their midst, they are a branch of the true and living tree of Christianity. They have much to offer to other Christian individuals and groups. There is no question in my mind about that. I fully and completely embrace them as Christian brothers and sisters (not spirit brothers and sisters). Huge, ginormous, massive difference!

Second, that they are not especially special. B. Carmon Hardy a great LDS historian of the twentieth century said that the Saints were/are "cocooned," "victims of their own cultural encystment." He was referring to their lives here in Mexico, but I think it an apt metaphor in a broader sense. There is a sense of exceptionalism in the mindset of many Saints about their collective virtue and grasp of the only true truth that I think may not be fully deserved. I have come to the conclusion that the Saints as a body are more than I had previously believed, and less than they believe. My very wise and knowledgeable LDS friends and I were talking this week - for more almost three hours. I made a comment about how unfortunate I think it is that the Saints know so very little about the beliefs of other Christians. Much of what I hear is driven by stereotypes and bias. The late great LDS writer, Stephen Robinson often asked Evangelicals not to tell him what he believes. That is a repeated theme in his writings. Yet, even here on this board, and certainly in person, I often read from a faithful Mormon what Evangelicals believe. I am not asked; I am told. Sorry, I digress. In reply to my comment, one of my friends replied, '"That is true, but what is really sad is how little many of us know about our own faith." I thought that a candid and forthright acknowledgement. I have enjoyed speaking in a wide variety of evangelical and yes, fundamentalist churches. I have seen many denominations whose beliefs to one degree or another vary. I would simply suggest the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in its Sacrament Meetings, Sunday School, and Priesthood Quorum meetings fall comfortably in that mix. I make no claim that my Mennonite heritage, doctrine, or lifestyle is anything worthy of being thought of as exceptional - the best church in which to worship, fellowship and live, it is not. It is one of the good ones - along with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints!

 

Our Mennonite friend was a truly good man. I am no expert in comparative religions, but.... as a missionary in Central America I spoke daily with dozens of people from other faiths and some with no faith. I never shy away from a discussion about religion with non-LDS people As a professional violinist I have performed many times in Evangelical church services and weddings of various faiths. I attend Christmas Eve mass at our local Polish Catholic Church in memory of my Polish grandfather. Several decades of exposure to proponents of other faiths and critics of our Church here on this board have served to make me more conversant with the beliefs of others. Many here share similar experience.

If what Joseph and Sidney experienced in the temple really happened (and I believe it did based on my experience described earlier), then the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has something very special to offer the world. All we can do is share the message. People are free to choose for themselves what they want to do with it.

Respectful discussion is more helpful than arguing and angry scripture bashing with people of other faiths. It would be better if people of faith agreed that we are not enemies and that we have a common enemy in Satan. It seems that more and more we are even getting into acrimony and rancor with our fellow Saints here on this board. That cannot be pleasing to God.

I think this is like what CS Lewis wrote about in the Screwtape Letters. When we eat each other up bickering over some things while ignoring the greater questions, Satan keeps us buzzing in a vacuum. 

Quote

The Enemy loves platitudes.  Of a proposed course of action He wants men, so far as I can see, to ask very simple questions: is it righteous? is it prudent? is it possible?  Now if we can keep men asking ‘Is it in accordance with the general movement of our time?  Is it progressive or reactionary?  Is this the way that History is going?’ they will neglect the relevant questions.  And the questions they do ask are, of course, unanswerable; for they do not know the future, and what the future will be depends very largely on just those choices which they now invoke the future to help them to make.  As a result, while their minds are buzzing in this vacuum, we have the better chance to slip in and bend them to the action we have decided on.

 

Edited September 3, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Meerkat]

On 8/28/2018 at 4:56 PM, Navidad said:

Quick question - in missionary training is there anything that teaches missionaries to evaluate the spiritual condition of people to whom they are ministering? Is it possible for a missionary to spend time with a person and come to the conclusion that they are Christians, love the Lord, and are faithful in their faith, and then decide to move on without a sigh; without needing to "convert" them? Or is it simply a matter that everyone who is not a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints should be and therefore needs to be ministered to until they make the right decision - joining the Church? I am really trying to understand the nature of the LDS acceptance of other Christians as true brothers and sisters in Christ and not in just the sense that one day they were spirit brothers and sisters. Are missionaries taught to discern the spiritual condition of those with whom they come in contact?

Jesus distinguished His Church from other Christians answering his disciples Peter, who asked the question: "Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.  But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.  For he that is not against us is on our part." Mark 9:38-40

So, as I see it, Jesus allowed for other Christians who were not baptized by His authority, to do good things in His name.  He told his disciples to forbid them not.  Why?  Because they were acting "on our part."

Those churches teach faith in Jesus Christ which enables them to read the Book of Mormon and ask God, as instructed in Moroni 10:3-5, if the Book of Mormon is true.  If a person reads it, prays to know if it is true, and receives a personal answer from God that it IS in fact true, then Joseph Smith was God's prophet, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only church that has God's authority to perform all essential sacred ordinances such as baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, with God's authority to act in His name.  Do we fellowship and learn from other Christians?  Absolutely.  Do we look at others in condescension because they are not members of the Church?  Absolutely not.  My Baptist neighbor is a better man than I am, and does many wonderful things because he loves the Lord, and loves his fellow man.  And I love him.  I wish we were able to fellowship more.  It is his choice that we don't much, but have many friendly conversations.  My wife and I used the Mennonite "Christian Light" curriculum during the time we home schooled our children.  It was great, and prepared them well for college.  Those other churches that preach Christ, and Him crucified, are actually working on the Lord's part preparing them to receive the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  Ours is not just another church.  It is His Church with authority to perform the sacred ordinances that all must receive.

In my opinion, Heavenly Father is a God of supreme organization.  He didn't set up several Christian churches with several doctrines of baptisms, Sabbath days and authorities to act in His name.  He organized one church with authority to act in His name.  His doctrine is important.  Peter said, after describing how he and the disciples did not follow after cunningly devised fables, but were eye witnesses to His majesty,  "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.  For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:20-21  

And Paul, speaking to the Hebrews, explained: "For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God..." and "...no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he was called of God, (by proper authority,) as was Aaron.  So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, today have I begotten thee.  As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchisedec."  Hebrews 5:1-6

We believe there are several sacred ordinances that God requires as we progress from our mortal probation to our Celestial home.  One is baptism.  Another is marriage for time and all eternity, which involves ordinances performed in the Temple.  All those ordinances must be done by proper authority.  That means done by faithful members of the Church set apart by those in authority to perform those ordinances.  But you, being on this board as long as you have and actually attending Church, already know all these things.  

When I first found the church and attended, as you are, I thought "If I could just sit on these pews and listen to the talks, and enjoy the Spirit that is here, that would be enough for me."  I looked around and realized there was something special about these people, and I was certainly nothing special.  It didn't occur to me at the time that I could be baptized and a part of this Church.  Then I took the missionary discussions.  I read the Book of Mormon and prayed as I was reading, to know if it was true.  The same Spirit that testified of Jesus Christ to me bore witness that the Book of Mormon is true, and therefore Joseph Smith was a prophet.  When they invited my wife and me to be baptized, I was overjoyed at the invitation.  That was over forty years ago, and I am still overjoyed and amazed that this opportunity came to me in my lifetime, and I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I have many relatives and ancestors who were not Christian, and did not receive the required ordinances in their lifetime.  I love them.  I feel connected to them and know they were good people.  I hunger for them to have all the required ordinances so that we may enter into the Celestial kingdom and associate there, if they choose to accept those ordinances.  That fact gives me great purpose as I get older, to seek out my kindred dead and perform those ordinances by proxy in the Temple.  

Scriptural support for those ordinances is found in 1 Peter 4:6 "For for this cause was the gospel preached  also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."  and in 1 Peter 3:18-20 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometimes were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noay, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."  Also see Doctrine and Covenants 138.

These are important truths relating to the Restored Gospel.  You are asking questions.  That, to me, is an indication you need answers-- not from the people on this thread, but from God.  Mennonites are good, faithful Christians.  You believe in prayer.  Read the Book of Mormon.  Pray about it.  Read it again and again.  You will love it because it testifies powerfully of Jesus Christ.  When your answer comes, you will know that God wants you and your wife to be baptized.  Bring all the good you have, and there is much, that you have learned as a Mennonite.  Add to it what you learn here.  Then, as you get older, do this important and sacred work for those you love who are in the spirit world waiting to have this work, that they cannot do for themselves, done.  They will be so grateful for what you have done for them.

That's my two cents.  Yes, we fellowship with everyone because we love everyone.  And there are some deep reasons why I believe you should take your faith to the next step and be baptized and receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost as your constant companion.  That's another subject, but there is a difference between the influence of the Holy Ghost that comes and goes testifying of Jesus Christ, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost as your constant companion.

Best wishes to you and your wife in your quest!  I hope you will embrace those sacred ordinances and be married to her for time and all eternity.

Meerkat

[MiserereNobis]

13 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

but there is a difference between the influence of the Holy Ghost that comes and goes testifying of Jesus Christ, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost as your constant companion.

I asked this last night but it hasn't yet been answered, so I'll ask you. What is the practical day-to-day difference of you having the gift of the Holy Ghost as compared to non-LDS Christians. What do you experience that we do not?

[Navidad]

1 minute ago, MiserereNobis said:

I asked this last night but it hasn't yet been answered, so I'll ask you. What is the practical day-to-day difference of you having the gift of the Holy Ghost as compared to non-LDS Christians. What do you experience that we do not?

There is no difference, of course I am only a dry Mormon so my beliefs don't count!

 

 

[MiserereNobis]

14 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

Bring all the good you have, and there is much, that you have learned as a Mennonite.  Add to it what you learn here. 

I've heard this statement quite a bit (was it President Hinkley who said it?). It is a lovely sentiment but it downplays the fact that if I were to convert to Mormonism there would be lots of things that I consider "good" that I would have to leave behind. It's not as simple as it sounds -- I can't just add what you have to what I have.

For example, I love Eucharistic Adoration, praying the Rosary, and going on monastic retreats. I have a deep and abiding love and relationship with the Blessed Virgin Mary, who has given me much. There are a few Saints that I regularly pray to. I love the liturgy and the liturgical calendar that sanctifies time. All these things I would have to leave behind if I were to become LDS, which then logically entails that they are not good since they are not something I could bring along. But my personal direct experience is that they are very good.

The sentiment of the statement is nice but the reality is that the only good I could bring with me is that which is in alignment with the LDS church. That makes perfect sense -- that is what a conversion is. But the statement glosses over all of that and makes it seem like I wouldn't be giving up much when in fact I would be.

[Navidad]

21 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

Jesus distinguished His Church from other Christians answering his disciples Peter, who asked the question: "Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.  But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.  For he that is not against us is on our part." Mark 9:38-40

So, as I see it, Jesus allowed for other Christians who were not baptized by His authority, to do good things in His name.  He told his disciples to forbid them not.  Why?  Because they were acting "on our part."

Those churches teach faith in Jesus Christ which enables them to read the Book of Mormon and ask God, as instructed in Moroni 10:3-5, if the Book of Mormon is true.  If a person reads it, prays to know if it is true, and receives a personal answer from God that it IS in fact true, then Joseph Smith was God's prophet, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only church that has God's authority to perform all essential sacred ordinances such as baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, with God's authority to act in His name.  Do we fellowship and learn from other Christians?  Absolutely.  Do we look at others in condescension because they are not members of the Church?  Absolutely not.  My Baptist neighbor is a better man than I am, and does many wonderful things because he loves the Lord, and loves his fellow man.  And I love him.  I wish we were able to fellowship more.  It is his choice that we don't much, but have many friendly conversations.  My wife and I used the Mennonite "Christian Light" curriculum during the time we home schooled our children.  It was great, and prepared them well for college.  Those other churches that preach Christ, and Him crucified, are actually working on the Lord's part preparing them to receive the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  Ours is not just another church.  It is His Church with authority to perform the sacred ordinances that all must receive.

In my opinion, Heavenly Father is a God of supreme organization.  He didn't set up several Christian churches with several doctrines of baptisms, Sabbath days and authorities to act in His name.  He organized one church with authority to act in His name.  His doctrine is important.  Peter said, after describing how he and the disciples did not follow after cunningly devised fables, but were eye witnesses to His majesty,  "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.  For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:20-21  

And Paul, speaking to the Hebrews, explained: "For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God..." and "...no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he was called of God, (by proper authority,) as was Aaron.  So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, today have I begotten thee.  As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchisedec."  Hebrews 5:1-6

We believe there are several sacred ordinances that God requires as we progress from our mortal probation to our Celestial home.  One is baptism.  Another is marriage for time and all eternity, which involves ordinances performed in the Temple.  All those ordinances must be done by proper authority.  That means done by faithful members of the Church set apart by those in authority to perform those ordinances.  But you, being on this board as long as you have and actually attending Church, already know all these things.  

When I first found the church and attended, as you are, I thought "If I could just sit on these pews and listen to the talks, and enjoy the Spirit that is here, that would be enough for me."  I looked around and realized there was something special about these people, and I was certainly nothing special.  It didn't occur to me at the time that I could be baptized and a part of this Church.  Then I took the missionary discussions.  I read the Book of Mormon and prayed as I was reading, to know if it was true.  The same Spirit that testified of Jesus Christ to me bore witness that the Book of Mormon is true, and therefore Joseph Smith was a prophet.  When they invited my wife and me to be baptized, I was overjoyed at the invitation.  That was over forty years ago, and I am still overjoyed and amazed that this opportunity came to me in my lifetime, and I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I have many relatives and ancestors who were not Christian, and did not receive the required ordinances in their lifetime.  I love them.  I feel connected to them and know they were good people.  I hunger for them to have all the required ordinances so that we may enter into the Celestial kingdom and associate there, if they choose to accept those ordinances.  That fact gives me great purpose as I get older, to seek out my kindred dead and perform those ordinances by proxy in the Temple.  

Scriptural support for those ordinances is found in 1 Peter 4:6 "For for this cause was the gospel preached  also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."  and in 1 Peter 3:18-20 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometimes were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noay, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."  Also see Doctrine and Covenants 138.

These are important truths relating to the Restored Gospel.  You are asking questions.  That, to me, is an indication you need answers-- not from the people on this thread, but from God.  Mennonites are good, faithful Christians.  You believe in prayer.  Read the Book of Mormon.  Pray about it.  Read it again and again.  You will love it because it testifies powerfully of Jesus Christ.  When your answer comes, you will know that God wants you and your wife to be baptized.  Bring all the good you have, and there is much, that you have learned as a Mennonite.  Add to it what you learn here.  Then, as you get older, do this important and sacred work for those you love who are in the spirit world waiting to have this work, that they cannot do for themselves, done.  They will be so grateful for what you have done for them.

That's my two cents.  Yes, we fellowship with everyone because we love everyone.  And there are some deep reasons why I believe you should take your faith to the next step and be baptized and receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost as your constant companion.  That's another subject, but there is a difference between the influence of the Holy Ghost that comes and goes testifying of Jesus Christ, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost as your constant companion.

Best wishes to you and your wife in your quest!  I hope you will embrace those sacred ordinances and be married to her for time and all eternity.

Meerkat

Thanks Meerkat - Couple of things - I thought Moroni 10 was written to Lamanites, no? How does that relate to me? I am confused that the suggestion is to read the Book of Mormon. I know this is the way it is, but I struggle understanding it.  Let me share why, the Book of Mormon is no longer, as I understand it, the foundational doctrinal text of the LDS. It is the revered ancient text, but one cannot read it and understand most of modern LDS doctrine. The Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price include all the  main LDS doctrines that Saints and others debate. Spirit children, exaltation, the priesthood authority and keys, the levels of heaven, the required ordinances, including sealings, eternal marriage, etc. etc. are all in the latter books. Why not ask your investigators to read those?  I have read the Book of Mormon perhaps twenty times. I find nothing much in it that I have to pray about. Outside of the historical accounts, it all seems pretty orthodox to me. The historical accounts are of no theological concern to me; they are outside of historical orthodoxy - that isn't anything salvific. I can accept that. I choose however to read the 1830 version. Since it is the originaal translation from the pen of the original translator, it must be the most accurately translated version. You are correct that I both want and need answers; but not as an investigator. I am content in the soundness of my relationship with the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ, and God the Father. I am content that if my LDS friends insist I do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling me, they are simply wrong. What they think about my baptism isn't particularly important to me because I do not believe baptism is an essential for salvation. It is a testimony of salvation. One thing we know for sure, there are varying interpretations among all of us of all four works of scripture as a whole, and even more so of certain verses. God is a God of order, not because he seeks or needs order. God is order. What He is, is order. It is not for us to proclaim that this or that belief brings order to God's mind. You must acknowledge that not all Saints believe all 13 Articles of Faith, or believe them in exactly the same way. There are wide variances. The folks on this board seem not to like creeds or councils, but have no problem proclaiming the 13 Articles of Faith (much more of a creed than Nicene's 90 some words) or the twice a year General Conferences where the leaders present their decisions, changes, and beliefs and the faithful sustain them with nary a no vote and then whatever was sustained becomes gospel. Sounds like a council to me! The priests and bishops attend, listen to the apostles (leaders) and vote. Hmmm......... Anyway, glad you had some good experience with Mennonite stuff. As you know we call our beliefs "The Ordnung" or "The Order." So be it.

[Jane_Doe]

38 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I've heard this statement quite a bit (was it President Hinkley who said it?). It is a lovely sentiment but it downplays the fact that if I were to convert to Mormonism there would be lots of things that I consider "good" that I would have to leave behind. It's not as simple as it sounds -- I can't just add what you have to what I have.

For example, I love Eucharistic Adoration, praying the Rosary, and going on monastic retreats. I have a deep and abiding love and relationship with the Blessed Virgin Mary, who has given me much. There are a few Saints that I regularly pray to. I love the liturgy and the liturgical calendar that sanctifies time. All these things I would have to leave behind if I were to become LDS, which then logically entails that they are not good since they are not something I could bring along. But my personal direct experience is that they are very good.

The sentiment of the statement is nice but the reality is that the only good I could bring with me is that which is in alignment with the LDS church. That makes perfect sense -- that is what a conversion is. But the statement glosses over all of that and makes it seem like I wouldn't be giving up much when in fact I would be.

Speaking from the LDS POV-- it does not matter what *we* consider to be good, but what *God* considers to be good.  Every person (LDS or not) is encouraged to bring all the good Godly things you have to the table, and see if it can be added to.  And the things which are not good in God's eyes we each do away with.

[MiserereNobis]

1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said:

Speaking from the LDS POV-- it does not matter what *we* consider to be good, but what *God* considers to be good.  Every person (LDS or not) is encouraged to bring all the good Godly things you have to the table, and see if it can be added to.  And the things which are not good in God's eyes we each do away with.

Right, which makes the statement somewhat misleading. A more accurate statement would have been: Bring what you already have in common with the LDS church and we will add to that.

[Jane_Doe]

9 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Thanks Meerkat - Couple of things - I thought Moroni 10 was written to Lamanites, no? How does that relate to me? I am confused that the suggestion is to read the Book of Mormon.

The same way the things written to the Corinthians or the Romans or the Ephesians apply to you.  These are God's Truth, and they apply to everyone of His children, regardless of whether or not we were specifically included in the letterhead. 

9 minutes ago, Navidad said:

 Let me share why, the Book of Mormon is no longer, as I understand it, the foundational doctrinal text of the LDS. It is the revered ancient text, but one cannot read it and understand most of modern LDS doctrine. The Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price include all the  main LDS doctrines that Saints and others debate. Spirit children, exaltation, the priesthood authority and keys, the levels of heaven, the required ordinances, including sealings, eternal marriage, etc. etc. are all in the latter books. Why not ask your investigators to read those? 

Because all of those things are not nearly as important.  The foundation of the Gospel is Christ.  It is that foundation the Book of Mormon hammers on and that we build on.  Those other things are simply appendages and do not remotely matter without the foundation.

9 minutes ago, Navidad said:

The folks on this board seem not to like creeds or councils, but have no problem proclaiming the 13 Articles of Faith (much more of a creed than Nicene's 90 some words)

The Articles of Faith are regarded as scripture-- the Words of God, revealed by prophets.  They are bound with rest of scripture accordingly.  

None of this is true for the Nicene Creed, even among it's believers: it's writers are not viewed as prophets like Moses and Paul, not regarded as the Words of God, and it is not considered scripture to bound with rest of scripture accordingly.  

[Calm]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

I've heard this statement quite a bit (was it President Hinkley who said it?). It is a lovely sentiment but it downplays the fact that if I were to convert to Mormonism there would be lots of things that I consider "good" that I would have to leave behind. It's not as simple as it sounds -- I can't just add what you have to what I have.

For example, I love Eucharistic Adoration, praying the Rosary, and going on monastic retreats. I have a deep and abiding love and relationship with the Blessed Virgin Mary, who has given me much. There are a few Saints that I regularly pray to. I love the liturgy and the liturgical calendar that sanctifies time. All these things I would have to leave behind if I were to become LDS, which then logically entails that they are not good since they are not something I could bring along. But my personal direct experience is that they are very good.

The sentiment of the statement is nice but the reality is that the only good I could bring with me is that which is in alignment with the LDS church. That makes perfect sense -- that is what a conversion is. But the statement glosses over all of that and makes it seem like I wouldn't be giving up much when in fact I would be.

I have looked on his statement more as the good that is within us, the fundamental principles or ideas that bring us closer to God.

I do agree that there are many good things that would need to be given up for many who join the Church though.  Actions converts did to bring their thoughts to God may not transfer well or at all.  Beliefs that elevated them before may conflict with LDS doctrine.

I think Latter-day Saints often think in terms of vague concepts of other churches' beliefs and practices.  We don't spend time discussing other faiths at church even if the apostasy and proliferation of denominations are discussed.  There is also a strong low church tradition in our church that probably gets transferred on to the concept of "Church" or faith in general. I think this might lead to just a generic misty picture when discussing other faiths in general, even for those who are familiar with the details of specific faiths.

When I happen to be talking to a soon to be missionary about their mission, I try to convey they need to seriously think about what they are asking people to give up, that there can be huge sacrifices involved and not just family and friends if they have issues with conversions, but ways of life that provided emotional, physical, and spiritual support.

Edited September 2, 2018 by Calm

[Jane_Doe]

9 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Right, which makes the statement somewhat misleading. A more accurate statement would have been: Bring what you already have in common with the LDS church and we will add to that.

If I were to join the Catholic Church, would I be asked to just bring what was right according to the Catholic Church?  Or can I keep things that I consider to be good in the sight of God but don't align with the Catholic Church?

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

I've heard this statement quite a bit (was it President Hinkley who said it?). It is a lovely sentiment but it downplays the fact that if I were to convert to Mormonism there would be lots of things that I consider "good" that I would have to leave behind. It's not as simple as it sounds -- I can't just add what you have to what I have.

For example, I love Eucharistic Adoration, praying the Rosary, and going on monastic retreats. I have a deep and abiding love and relationship with the Blessed Virgin Mary, who has given me much. There are a few Saints that I regularly pray to. I love the liturgy and the liturgical calendar that sanctifies time. All these things I would have to leave behind if I were to become LDS, which then logically entails that they are not good since they are not something I could bring along. But my personal direct experience is that they are very good.

The sentiment of the statement is nice but the reality is that the only good I could bring with me is that which is in alignment with the LDS church. That makes perfect sense -- that is what a conversion is. But the statement glosses over all of that and makes it seem like I wouldn't be giving up much when in fact I would be.

Very well said.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

I asked this last night but it hasn't yet been answered, so I'll ask you. What is the practical day-to-day difference of you having the gift of the Holy Ghost as compared to non-LDS Christians. What do you experience that we do not?

I am not a convert, so I can't share a personal experience so this is more a reasoned explanation than experienced and therefore I may be quite wrong.

I personally believe it is a difference in kind and not degree.  We make a particular covenant and if we live up to it, we are promised the presence of the Spirit with us always...but if we do not, we can certainly 'lose the Spirit'.  But wouldn't a righteous nonLDS Christian who sought the Spirit at all times also be blessed with the Spirit's Presence at all times?

So I think it is more what the covenantal relationship means and I see it as likely something similar to the difference of family vs. friends.  Technically you might spend as much or more actual time with a friend, but there is a bond lacking with friends that is present in the family relationship that deepens the connection, places additional obligations on those involved.  That is why we tend to be more disturbed when we hear of family conflict or rejection than we are when we hear of friends fighting.  There is something in our gut that says family should be there for you no matter what disagreements and hurts are happening.

I don't know how that translates into the actual experience.  I certainly know nonLDS who seem to me to be as spiritually present as any Latter-day Saint I know.

Edited September 2, 2018 by Calm

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I have looked on his statement more as the good that is within us, the fundamental principles or ideas that bring us closer to God.

I do agree that there are many good things that would need to be given up for many who join the Church though.  Actions converts did to bring their thoughts to God may not transfer well or at all.  Beliefs that elevated them before may conflict with LDS doctrine.

I think Latter-day Saints often think in terms of vague concepts of other churches' beliefs and practices.  We don't spend time discussing other faiths at church even if the apostasy and proliferation of denominations are discussed.  There is also a strong low church tradition in our church that probably gets transferred on to the concept of "Church" or faith in general. I think this might lead to just a generic misty picture when discussing other faiths in general, even for those who are familiar with the details of specific faiths.

When I happen to be talking to a soon to be missionary about their mission, I try to convey they need to seriously think about what they are asking people to give up, that there can be huge sacrifices involved and not just family and friends if they have issues with conversions, but ways of life that provided emotional, physical, and spiritual support.

I think there is much wisdom in your comments. It seems to me that Saints have a minimal understanding of how much a mature Christian's faith and commitment mean to him or her. In attending a ward I wish there was a stronger sense of worship in the Sacrament meeting. I love Sunday School - great teacher, and the Elder's Quorum is delightful. A cacophony of strong opinions from older men. Love it. I enjoy the ward, but there is much we miss because of not having a church of our faith to go to. It just seems that whenever I talk with Saints and they talk about adding to the faith; it is always them adding to my faith what is missing. We never get to where I might be able to add to theirs. That is not something that seems to enter their minds. Makes me sad.

[Scott Lloyd]

18 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Well, you don't accept our baptisms as valid, so all is fair in love and war, eh?

 

I've long felt that I don't have standing to be offended about Catholics not accepting Latter-day Saint baptisms when Latter-day Saints do not validate Catholic baptisms.

I do wonder, though, why you draw the line at Latter-day Saints and not with other faith groups whose beliefs conflict with Catholicism in some respects. Seems like discrimination.

[Calm]

There are plenty of faith groups with invalid baptisms according to the RCC:

https://www.dosp.org/chancellor/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/3.-Valid-and-Invalid-Baptisms.pdf

If I understand correctly, it is necessary for the baptism to be understood in the same way that the RCC understands it, including the nature of God and what the baptism is meant to accomplish.  Doctrines not impacting the nature of the baptism are therefore irrelevant.

Edited September 2, 2018 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I asked this last night but it hasn't yet been answered, so I'll ask you. What is the practical day-to-day difference of you having the gift of the Holy Ghost as compared to non-LDS Christians. What do you experience that we do not?

It is said that non members can experience direct revelations from the Holy Ghost- if not then they could not even be converted.  As your quote states though, the doctrine is that after one is confirmed one has the right to "constant communication" with the Holy Ghost as one remains righteous- Catholics might say "in a state of grace".

The doctrine is that this does not apply to non-members- ie that they can have "visits" from the Holy Ghost but not "constant companionship"

Frankly I have always had some problems with that idea, being a convert and having experienced "both sides" of the question.