Educated...Tara Westover

[mfbukowski]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

Is anyone using her work for their own agenda?

In picking this work, do you think the New York Times was being "pro-Mormon"?

Did they pick it entirely because it was in inspirational story or was the Mormon angle part of why it was picked?

Suppose for example her parents were atheist Communists who indoctrinated her into the Red Guard and she stayed a part of the Red Guard but was simply complaining about what she had to overcome?

Does the organization she left have ANYTHING to do with the story?

If they had been Catholics from some strange sect, or Jews from some strange sect would they have been as sympathetic

I am just wondering...

I think it's naive to believe that anti-religiosity has NOTHING to do with the publicity she is receiving.

For the youngsters out there, these folks are holding up a book  they accept as infallible and it ain't the Book of Mormon.  

Edited July 24, 2018 by mfbukowski

[jkwilliams]

8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

In picking this work, do you think the New York Times was being "pro-Mormon"?

Did they pick it entirely because it was in inspirational story or was the Mormon angle part of why it was picked?

Suppose for example her parents were atheist Communists who indoctrinated her into the Red Guard and she stayed a part of the Red Guard but was simply complaining about what she had to overcome?

Does the organization she left have ANYTHING to do with the story?

If they had been Catholics from some strange sect, or Jews from some strange sect would they have been as sympathetic

I am just wondering...

I think it's naive to believe that anti-religiosity has NOTHING to do with the publicity she is receiving.

For the youngsters out there, these folks are holding up a book  they accept as infallible and it ain't the Book of Mormon.  

It couldn’t possibly be that it’s a great story of someone who overcame serious obstacles to go from having no education to a PhD from Cambridge. 

[mfbukowski]

23 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

As I said, acknowledging that the account is hers isn't about believing her at all. 

I hope you realize this is - to me- about the question of historicity, revelation,  and believing subjective accounts and what we can learn from subjective accounts regardless of whether or not there is proof it "really happened".

So if none of what she says "really happened" the account is just as good because it is HER account?

Now you are starting to sound like a guy who says "The Book of Mormon and first vision is valuable because it is Joseph's account of what happened"

I see both in the same category: Value derived from subjective accounts without objective evidence.

"Pious fiction"

I just wonder if the New York Times would accept the value of the First Vision on the same basis on which they accept this book as having value?

They do it on one side and reject the value of the Book of Mormon on the other side.

To me it's about the same thing!

[mfbukowski]

29 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

It couldn’t possibly be that it’s a great story of someone who overcame serious obstacles to go from having no education to a PhD from Cambridge. 

And Joseph Smith went from no education, overcame opposition to seeing God and becoming a religious genius who foreshadowed what theology eventually became.

Based on no evidence of his subjective experience.

Secularists believe one and not the other.  But that's ok as long as you remain a secularist.  Perfectly reasonable for them but not for theists.

I see that as a problem

Both accounts are of inspirational subjective experience. Either that is valuable or it's not.

Edited July 24, 2018 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, ALarson said:

She's telling her story and from what I've read, she's positive towards the church (and makes it clear that her experience wasn't with mainstream Mormonism).

Maybe it's best to just read her book if you really want to know what's in it or refrain from criticizing her.  That would be the fair thing to do, IMO.

LOL!!!!

Where did I criticize her??

Talk about missing the point......

For those who are missing it, I am talking about how we pick and choose whom to believe based on our prejudices, especially when there is no objective evidence.

Edited July 24, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Bernard Gui]

52 minutes ago, Calm said:

Is anyone using her work for their own agenda?

Don't know that much about it other than what I have posted here.

[jkwilliams]

16 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

And Joseph Smith went from no education, overcame opposition to seeing God and becoming a religious genius who foreshadowed what theology eventually became.

Based on no evidence of his subjective experience.

Secularists believe one and not the other.  But that's ok as long as you remain a secularist.  Perfectly reasonable for them but not for theists.

I see that as a problem

I think you’re making more of her connection to Mormonism than pretty much every review I’ve read. The point is that she was raised in a family that was totally disconnected from the rest of the world. When she went to BYU she didn’t even know about slavery or the holocaust. That she accomplished what she has is a heck of a story, and the connection to Mormonism is irrelevant. 

[mfbukowski]

29 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I think you’re making more of her connection to Mormonism than pretty much every review I’ve read. The point is that she was raised in a family that was totally disconnected from the rest of the world. When she went to BYU she didn’t even know about slavery or the holocaust. That she accomplished what she has is a heck of a story, and the connection to Mormonism is irrelevant. 

As is this comment.

I am not talking about her at all or really her connection to Mormonism.  

[jkwilliams]

49 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

As is this comment.

I am not talking about her at all or really her connection to Mormonism.  

Perhaps you can clarify what you are talking about, as you are kind of all over the map. You went from saying the book wouldn’t have been picked up if it hadn’t been about Mormonism to saying you’re not talking about Mormonism at all. Hopefully you can understand my confusion. 

Edited July 25, 2018 by jkwilliams

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Every "recreation" of the past is its own creation because it is an assignation of meaning. Otherwise, how do we explain that a memory means something different 10 years later than it does 10 minutes after the event?

I was referring to creating memories of things that didn’t happen, conflating events and people, inventing conversations, etc. Not sure if we’re disagreeing about stuff or just talking past each other. I suspect the latter.

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

I was referring to creating memories of things that didn’t happen, conflating events and people, inventing conversations, etc. Not sure if we’re disagreeing about stuff or just talking past each other. I suspect the latter.

No, I understood what you meant. I was just clarifying that I believe all memory involves creation. The raw materials are there, but the meaning is created. 

[pogi]

8 hours ago, bluebell said:

I just started reading the book last night and her family is crazy!  

I can't help but feel a little bad for her family.  What if there really is some level of mental illness leading to such a level of paranoia?  What about their previous family dynamics and history has contributed to their peculiarities?  Man, I would love to hear about their stories too.  Were they victims of their own upbringing in some way?  I always struggle to balance holding people accountable for their craziness and compassion for their history.  Wondering, would I have turned out any different if I was raised in their situation...  The fact that these people are still alive, and they have all of their dirty laundry made available to all of America to critique, causes me to have empathy.  How would any one of us feel if a NewYork Times #1 best seller fully displayed your families dirty laundry to be judged of the world?    

While I applaud Tara for bravely escaping difficult generational dynamics, I have empathy for those who are still stuck in it.  Generational patterns like that are hard to break, and without outside influence, may be impossible to break!  I just don't know if it is fair to them that their own daughter make such a public display of them, especially while they are all still living...  I wonder how I would feel knowing that my entire community was reading and judging every private detail about my families dynamics.  If they didn't have a good relationship before, Tara has all but closed the book on it now...  

I have not read the book and am not defending or justifying anything the family has done, but I feel like everyone deserves fairness and compassion, and I don't feel like that will ever be afforded this family. 

[Bernard Gui]

I believe she decides her dad is bi-polar, which explains a lot of the craziness. Would I want my kids to write about the family and me in this way while I was still alive? Not so sure it would be helpful for family relationships.

Your concerns about the family are echoed in many reviews who commented that maybe she is premature in revealing all this....maybe would be more appropriate as an older woman. Those were Sister Gui's thoughts, too.

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

I believe she decides her dad is bi-polar, which explains a lot of the craziness. Would I want my kids to write about the family and me in this way while I was still alive? Not so sure it would be helpful for family relationships.

Your concerns about the family are echoed in many reviews who commented that maybe she is premature in revealing all this....maybe would be more appropriate as an older woman. Those were Sister Gui's thoughts, too.

I totally understand that. I’m pretty sure I would rather my kids wait until I’m senile or dead before they write a tell-all book about my parenting history. 

[jkwilliams]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

And Joseph Smith went from no education, overcame opposition to seeing God and becoming a religious genius who foreshadowed what theology eventually became.

Based on no evidence of his subjective experience.

Secularists believe one and not the other.  But that's ok as long as you remain a secularist.  Perfectly reasonable for them but not for theists.

I see that as a problem

Both accounts are of inspirational subjective experience. Either that is valuable or it's not.

And Joseph Smith’s life story has been the subject of countless books and articles. I’d venture that his story will continue to be of interest long after Ms. Westover’s book is forgotten. 

I don’t know why anyone would be surprised that secular people tend to be more skeptical of supernatural claims than they are of non-supernatural claims. And theists tend to be selective about which supernatural claims they accept. Whether the claims are of value is a subjective value judgment. 

Edited July 25, 2018 by jkwilliams

[Jeanne]

18 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I totally understand that. I’m pretty sure I would rather my kids wait until I’m senile or dead before they write a tell-all book about my parenting history. 

Oh heck...me, too.  I don't want to be around when they talk about shoulda..woulda..coulda in all I do...

[bluebell]

14 hours ago, pogi said:

I can't help but feel a little bad for her family.  What if there really is some level of mental illness leading to such a level of paranoia?  What about their previous family dynamics and history has contributed to their peculiarities?  Man, I would love to hear about their stories too.  Were they victims of their own upbringing in some way?  I always struggle to balance holding people accountable for their craziness and compassion for their history.  Wondering, would I have turned out any different if I was raised in their situation...  The fact that these people are still alive, and they have all of their dirty laundry made available to all of America to critique, causes me to have empathy.  How would any one of us feel if a NewYork Times #1 best seller fully displayed your families dirty laundry to be judged of the world?    

While I applaud Tara for bravely escaping difficult generational dynamics, I have empathy for those who are still stuck in it.  Generational patterns like that are hard to break, and without outside influence, may be impossible to break!  I just don't know if it is fair to them that their own daughter make such a public display of them, especially while they are all still living...  I wonder how I would feel knowing that my entire community was reading and judging every private detail about my families dynamics.  If they didn't have a good relationship before, Tara has all but closed the book on it now...  

I have not read the book and am not defending or justifying anything the family has done, but I feel like everyone deserves fairness and compassion, and I don't feel like that will ever be afforded this family. 

You’d probably need to read the book in order to judge whether they are being treated with fairness and compassion, and whether Tara is reporting every private detail of their lives. 

I’m not into it very far yet but so far she has recounted experiences without passing judgment when telling them.  

For example, she recounted how reading a verse in Isaiah caused her father to conclude that milk and dairy products were evil and subsequently remove them from the home. She does not editorialize that experience at all though. She presents it without judgement and without making her dad a bad guy. 

Maybe that will change because like I said, I’m just starting it, but hopefully not. 

[pogi]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

You’d probably need to read the book in order to judge whether they are being treated with fairness and compassion, and whether Tara is reporting every private detail of their lives. 

I’m not into it very far yet but so far she has recounted experiences without passing judgment when telling them.  

For example, she recounted how reading a verse in Isaiah caused her father to conclude that milk and dairy products were evil and subsequently remove them from the home. She does not editorialize that experience at all though. She presents it without judgement and without making her dad a bad guy. 

Maybe that will change because like I said, I’m just starting it, but hopefully not. 

Ya, she sounds like she is non-judgmental of the church and her family, which is good.  However, I am sure I would probably come to the same conclusion of her family that you have come to if I read the book - "they are crazy".  From everything I have read from her interviews and book reviews, this book is about her liberation from her families extremist views through education.  I just feel that every family is on a spectrum of crazy.  Her's might certainly be more extreme, but if I was in her position, I don't think I could feel good about placing my families craziness on display for the world to judge.  For example, in the cover of anonymity, I can tell you that my own mother is crazy!  She has many similar beliefs to Tara's parents.  Paranoid about modern medicine, doctors, vaccines etc. and here I am an RN in public health!  Her neighbor came home from radiation treatment for cancer, and my mom could not stand to be next door, afraid that the radiation had contaminated her home, so she lived in a hotel for a month.  She will not let anyone use a cell phone in the car with her because it will turn the car into a microwave of sorts...ya, that kind of crazy!  I could go on and on...  Never in a million years would I write a book about my mother's extremist views and my freedom from them through education.  That would absolutely break her.  Even if I did not have a relationship with her, I don't think it would be fair to do that, knowing that her community would likely read it. 

This was a really interesting comment she made in the interview linked to in the OP. 

Quote

When I was going through the experience of losing my own family, I became really sensitive to the stories that I was encountering in film or books or even advertising. I felt like we had stories about family loyalty; I didn't feel like we had stories about what to do when you felt that loyalty to your family was in conflict with loyalty to yourself. I felt like we had stories about forgiveness, and most of those stories associate reconciliation with forgiveness. They made it seem like reconciliation was the highest form of forgiveness and I just didn't know whether I would ever be able to reconcile with my family, so I wanted to tell a story that would be about forgiveness but wouldn't necessarily be about reconciliation.

I think that is a really interesting and fair point.  Loyalty to self should always supersede loyalty to family.  I also think that she is right that sometimes forgiveness without reconciliation is the best route in toxic relationships.  But I still don't know if I agree with using your living family as a very public negative example to make a point.  Even if the point she is making is a good one.  If there is no other way to make the same point, then it would probably be best to use a pseudonym. 

She noted, "I just didn't know whether I would ever be able to reconcile with my family..."   Well, there can be no doubt now.

Edited July 25, 2018 by pogi

[BonhoefferFan]

On 7/25/2018 at 12:23 AM, jkwilliams said:

It couldn’t possibly be that it’s a great story of someone who overcame serious obstacles to go from having no education to a PhD from Cambridge. 

I have a close friend who did exactly that.  Knocked up his High School girlfriend, eventually got an undergrad, got into Cambridge, got his PhD.  Now teaches at my undergrad.  Great guy, good friend.  His family was fundamentalist Christian, not Mormon, but he is on good terms with them all. 

He never wrote a book about how bad his family was, however. 

There are a lot of inspiring people in the world.  I have to wonder at the need to write a memoir for the masses.  Today it almost seems Kardashian-esque. 

[Tacenda]

On 7/25/2018 at 8:55 AM, bluebell said:

You’d probably need to read the book in order to judge whether they are being treated with fairness and compassion, and whether Tara is reporting every private detail of their lives. 

I’m not into it very far yet but so far she has recounted experiences without passing judgment when telling them.  

For example, she recounted how reading a verse in Isaiah caused her father to conclude that milk and dairy products were evil and subsequently remove them from the home. She does not editorialize that experience at all though. She presents it without judgement and without making her dad a bad guy. 

Maybe that will change because like I said, I’m just starting it, but hopefully not. 

Was looking at the book that RPN just posted about: "A Place for Us". I then looked down on the Amazon website that those that bought this book also bought "Educated" and the book by Michelle Obama called "Becoming". And I really want to read "Educated", I noticed she had over 3,500 reviews on Amazon and most giving her many stars. Plus, the book is on the Top Ten List of books in 2018. 

So what do you think bluebell, does the book deserve these great reviews? Should I fork over the money, haha.  

ETA: Just listened to this youtube of an interview where she sings "Come, Come Ye Saints". She's got a great voice. And another thing I noted, her accent. People from Idaho have such a good speech pattern. I have a daughter-in-law that grew up in the Boise, Idaho area. And when I visit I listen to fellow Idahoans and they sound similar. Such as a lot of Utahans do as well of course, but I'll take the Idaho dialect over Utahan, sounds snobby I know. But I think they did a study somewhere, I'll search...couldn't find. But once when I was in Hawaii there was a lady on a scuba diving boat that was a tour guide and I asked her where she was from because she sounded just like my DIL. She was from Idaho! I knew it! And she happened to have mentioned that a lot of Idahans were good at speaking or picked out to do that for a living, something like that. Sorry for the long post now. 

 

Edited December 29, 2018 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

25 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Was looking at the book that RPN just posted about: "A Place for Us". I then looked down on the Amazon website that those that bought this book also bought "Educated" and the book by Michelle Obama called "Becoming". And I really want to read "Educated", I noticed she had over 3,500 reviews on Amazon and most giving her many stars. Plus, the book is on the Top Ten List of books in 2018. 

So what do you think bluebell, does the book deserve these great reviews? Should I fork over the money, haha.  

ETA: Just listened to this youtube of an interview where she sings "Come, Come Ye Saints". She's got a great voice. And another thing I noted, her accent. People from Idaho have such a good speech pattern. I have a daughter-in-law that grew up in the Boise, Idaho area. And when I visit I listen to fellow Idahoans and they sound similar. Such as a lot of Utahans do as well of course, but I'll take the Idaho dialect over Utahan, sounds snobby I know. But I think they did a study somewhere, I'll search...couldn't find. But once when I was in Hawaii there was a lady on a scuba diving boat that was a tour guide and I asked her where she was from because she sounded just like my DIL. She was from Idaho! I knew it! And she happened to have mentioned that a lot of Idahans were good at speaking or picked out to do that for a living, something like that. Sorry for the long post now. 

 

I don’t know if it’s worth buying but it’s definitely worth reading. I doubt I would ever want to read it again ( though I really liked it!) and I try to only buy books that I’ll use again.

You could maybe get it from the library if you don’t want to buy it.  

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I don’t know if it’s worth buying but it’s definitely worth reading. I doubt I would ever want to read it again ( though I really liked it!) and I try to only buy books that I’ll use again.

You could maybe get it from the library if you don’t want to buy it.  

Done, but it might be a couple of years waiting since there are about 225 people ahead of me, haha. But I'm on a couple of waiting lists at a couple of librarys. Thanks for the review/response! 😀

[mfbukowski]

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

[HappyJackWagon]

My wife just finished this book and I'm reading it now. It's compelling and very well done. The first sentence in the book is something to the effect of "This book is not about Mormonism."

It's true. It's not. A very strange strain of Mormonism influences many of the characters but I don't think the craziness of her family reflects on Mormonism any more than it reflects on every person who shares the family name.

I'm only about 3/4 of the way through it but it's a fascinating book and I would definitely recommend it.