Prof Posted July 20, 2018 Posted July 20, 2018 One of my friends at church has made that statement several times. Indeed, he has told other members to avoid riding in a boat at the local lake because the devil controls the water. I've not seen this anywhere in scripture. Is anyone on the board familiar with this saying (the devil controls the water)? Does anyone have a citation for it?
Popular Post pogi Posted July 20, 2018 Popular Post Posted July 20, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Prof said: Indeed, he has told other members to avoid riding in a boat at the local lake because the devil controls the water. If he is talking about Utah lake, he is right! The devil will smite you with his algae blooms! Sorry for the long cut and paste, but there is some good context here: Quote As it turns out, this saying most likely originated from section 61 of the Doctrine and Covenants and the events that proceeded it. On August 12, 1831, Joseph Smith and 10 others were traveling by canoe on the Missouri river and had camped on McIlwaine’s Bend when they experienced the following: On the 9th, in company with ten Elders, I left Independence landing for Kirtland. We started down the river in canoes, and went the first day as far as Fort Osage, where we had an excellent wild turkey for supper. Nothing very important occurred till the third day, when many of the dangers so common upon the western waters, manifested themselves; and after we had encamped upon the bank of the river, at McIlwaine’s Bend, Brother Phelps, in open vision by daylight, saw the destroyer in his most horrible power, ride upon the face of the waters; others heard the noise, but saw not the vision (History of the Church 1:202–3). Though Elder William W. Phelps was the only one to see the vision, others "heard the noise, but saw not the vision." Joseph Smith then received the following revelation found in Doctrine and Covenants 61:4 that the group should "bear record; behold, there are many dangers upon the waters, and more especially hereafter." Section 61:14–19 also goes into more detail about the "dangers upon the waters" and what that meant for Latter-day Saints: 14 Behold, I, the Lord, in the beginning blessed the waters; but in the last days, by the mouth of my servant John, I cursed the waters. 15 Wherefore, the days will come that no flesh shall be safe upon the waters. 16 And it shall be said in days to come that none is able to go up to the land of Zion upon the waters, but he that is upright in heart. 17 And, as I, the Lord, in the beginning cursed the land, even so in the last days have I blessed it, in its time, for the use of my saints, that they may partake the fatness thereof. 18 And now I give unto you a commandment that what I say unto one I say unto all, that you shall forewarn your brethren concerning these waters, that they come not in journeying upon them, lest their faith fail and they are caught in snares; 19 I, the Lord, have decreed, and the destroyer rideth upon the face thereof, and I revoke not the decree. While the origin of the saying that Satan has dominion over the waters likely came from Elder Phelps' vision and section 61 of the Doctrine and Covenants, the scripture does not specifically state that Satan has dominion over this element, but that the waters are "cursed." But what does that mean and how does that apply to missionaries? The Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual Section 61 "The Lord Has Blessed the Land and Cursed the Waters," gives some commentary from Joseph Fielding Smith about what it might mean that the waters are "cursed" and what that has to do with safety. In the beginning the Lord blessed the waters and cursed the land, but in these last days this was reversed, the land was to be blessed and the waters to be cursed. http://www.ldsliving.com/Where-the-Saying-Satan-has-Dominion-over-the-Water-Came-from-And-Why-It-s-Used-in-Connection-with-Missionaries/s/84882 Edited July 20, 2018 by pogi 5
CV75 Posted July 20, 2018 Posted July 20, 2018 12 minutes ago, Prof said: One of my friends at church has made that statement several times. Indeed, he has told other members to avoid riding in a boat at the local lake because the devil controls the water. I've not seen this anywhere in scripture. Is anyone on the board familiar with this saying (the devil controls the water)? Does anyone have a citation for it? It comes from D&C 61 but I'm not sure if those days have yet come (14-16). 1
JAHS Posted July 20, 2018 Posted July 20, 2018 Here is the scripture where John talks about the cursed waters: 8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. 10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. (Rev 8: 8-11) The prophecy in these scriptures was considered to have been fulfilled on the Missouri and Mississippi rivers during Joseph Smith's day and later during world Wars I and II, with all the death and destruction that happened on the seas. It can also refer to floods, hurricanes, and contamination of the water happening in our day. The Wormwood mentioned in the Revelation scriptures, is a plant symbolic of bitterness, calamity, and sorrow. The introduction of wormwood into the waters would make them undrinkable, or at the very least bitter and distasteful. Atomic fallout could account for making a third of the water of the world undrinkable. Regardless of the interpretation of these scriptures, ever since this revelation, missionaries have been advised to stay away from the waters as much as possible. But it's really more of a safety thing rather than any unusual control Satan might have over them just because they are on the water. As the scripture said, "he that is upright in heart"(D&C 61:16) should not be affected by this curse.
Robert F. Smith Posted July 20, 2018 Posted July 20, 2018 56 minutes ago, pogi said: ................................. Sorry for the long cut and paste, but there is some good context here: Quote ..commentary from Joseph Fielding Smith about what it might mean that the waters are "cursed" and what that has to do with safety. Always wear life preserver.
Popular Post Judd Posted July 20, 2018 Popular Post Posted July 20, 2018 6 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Always wear life preserver. 5
clarkgoble Posted July 20, 2018 Posted July 20, 2018 Here's a good overview for the early Mormon history of the notion http://www.ldsliving.com/Where-the-Saying-Satan-has-Dominion-over-the-Water-Came-from-And-Why-It-s-Used-in-Connection-with-Missionaries/s/84882 The idea ultimately comes from Revelation (See D&C 61:14) and things like wormwood or the great whore siting on the waters. (See Rev 12:15-16; 13:1; 17:1) It's still pretty weird since the folk tales that would have been present in the early 19th century had running water as a problem for witches and devil. Running waters were typically seen as intrinsically good. Devils and witches couldn't even cross waters. So the early Mormon use is opposed to that. The ideas probably go back to Canaanite and wider myths where either Baal or Yahweh battle the sea monsters and in some cases other figures in the sea. There was a tradition in the ANE that the sea was intrinsically evil - undoubtedly aided by the dangers of navigating the ocean - even the Mediterranean. However while D&C 61 clearly comes from Revelation (and in many ways is denying the waters being quite so bad as early Mormons thought) I've no idea where the other idea comes from beyond the use in Revelation. I did some quick searches and couldn't find much either. 1
rpn Posted July 20, 2018 Posted July 20, 2018 For years MP used that section as a reason why Elders couldn't go swimming or participate in water sports. It would be a good bet that that enlarged the story. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted July 20, 2018 Posted July 20, 2018 2 hours ago, Judd said: "Back to the Future"?
Judd Posted July 21, 2018 Posted July 21, 2018 3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: "Back to the Future"? Close. Teen Wolf. 1
rodheadlee Posted July 21, 2018 Posted July 21, 2018 (edited) I don't know why but the veil is very thin in the sea of Cortez. She can be a mean Sea to those who are not prepared and do not sail with the Lord. Edited July 21, 2018 by rodheadlee
Unaffiliated Posted July 21, 2018 Posted July 21, 2018 1 hour ago, rodheadlee said: I don't know why but the veil is very thin in the sea of Cortez. She can be a mean Sea to those who are not prepared and do not sail with the Lord. Satan must be located in the Bermuda Triangle.
cinepro Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 (edited) On 7/20/2018 at 6:30 PM, Judd said: Close. Teen Wolf. That's the first time I've ever wished there was a "downvote" feature on the forum. How. Dare. You. Edited July 22, 2018 by cinepro 1
Judd Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 1 hour ago, cinepro said: That's the first time I've ever wished there was a "downvote" feature on the forum. How. Dare. You. Given the question, I had no choice. Unless you’d settle for Doc Hollywood.
halconero Posted July 24, 2018 Posted July 24, 2018 No, the Canadian Federal government controls the water, according to the 1982 Constitution. 1
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