Stargazer Posted July 14, 2018 Posted July 14, 2018 On 7/11/2018 at 6:20 PM, USU78 said: Slanderers do tend to be both facile, self satisfying and self congratulatory, don't they? Of course. Who else is going to congratulate them? If you want the job done right, do it yourself! 1
Atheist Mormon Posted July 15, 2018 Posted July 15, 2018 On 7/11/2018 at 9:33 PM, USU78 said: Reminds me of the kid in the playground who'd come up behind you, hit you in the head with a rock, then run bawling to teacher that you were being mean to him. Yeah ... hard upon libel is never the time to complain about the libel. And Carol Lynn Pearson is hardly a witness worth listening to: repeating self-serving, malicious slanders doesn't make you an expert or even reliable. Malicious & self serving slanders, Hardly a witness listening to? Great...I have no rebuttal to you. Thanks.
USU78 Posted July 15, 2018 Posted July 15, 2018 49 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said: Malicious & self serving slanders, Hardly a witness listening to? Great...I have no rebuttal to you. Thanks. Any time.
Tacenda Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 Really good listen! In fact a crucial podcast for people all over, pay attention to what they say about youth and anti-depressants. Not good for taking long term inevitably, better for short term and then figuring out the best route. And for health care providers...never say to a teen or even an adult that they will always have to take anti-depressants, that depresses them to the point of feeling hopelessness. But it's of course not a cut and dry answer. But I probably don't explain very well, but such good research done by both guests. C/P'd: This episode features two important voices who are asking questions like this: Robert Whitaker, a celebrated journalist and author who focuses on science and medicine, and Jacob Hess, Ph.D., a mental health researcher and advocate for better discussions about important questions such as “How can people find more sustainable healing from depression?” Neither Bob nor Jacob are anti- anti-depressants so much as pro- “informed consent.” In this discussion, they overview much of the literature about long-term anti-depressant outcomes and offer background into the paradigm shift that took place some thirty years ago when anti-depressant use began to soar, and they compare it with actual findings about both short- and long-term outcomes. They also share information about many factors that contribute to depression, anxiety, and several other mental health challenges and what research is showing about effective therapies that help with those either in combination with medication or without it. The story they tell is fascinating, as well as difficult to hear but also hopeful. We hope you will pay close attention to this episode and share it with those you know who could benefit from hearing a wider view on today’s understanding of the causes of many mental health struggles and prevailing treatment approaches. https://www.mormonmatters.org/podcast-item/491-mormonism-and-depression-suicide-and-medication-a-larger-context/
Atheist Mormon Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 5 hours ago, USU78 said: Any time. What part of her bothers you so much......Her Books? That she expresses so much em emphaty & love for gay people (including her husband?). There's no fake .....malice or imitation in her...How can you be so clueless?
USU78 Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 27 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said: What part of her bothers you so much......Her Books? That she expresses so much em emphaty & love for gay people (including her husband?). There's no fake .....malice or imitation in her...How can you be so clueless? It's her advocacy for embracement of her abuser that offends me.
Calm Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 (edited) 39 minutes ago, USU78 said: It's her advocacy for embracement of her abuser that offends me. In her Polygamy book, she goes to great lengths discussing what a negative impact the doctrine of polygamy had on herself and her relationship with her husband, but I don't remember mention of the relationship being affected by his choice to leave her and engage in homosexual behaviour ( I didn't finish the book so perhaps she restored some balance later on; her style of writing has never appealed to me, I don't like people who insert themselves into historic situations and then act as if those emotional reactions are relevant to the history) as much as her feelings about polygamy. She was embarrassed by the divorce (pg 34), but even there it is used to focus on her horror over polygamy.. His being gay is treated as an aside (pg 20) to his comment about taking another woman as one of his celestial wives (and he is not joking but serious according to Pearson). She throws in a comment that it is the Church's fault for not being a refuge, for her marriage issues, and of course for polygamy. I don't have a problem with advocacy in and of itself, but it comes across as unrealistic and dishonest to ignore other significant issues. Edited July 16, 2018 by Calm 1
USU78 Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 9 minutes ago, Calm said: In her Polygamy book, she goes to great lengths discussing what a negative impact the doctrine of polygamy had on her relationship with her husband, but I don't remember mention of the relationship being affected by his choice to leave her and engage in homosexual behaviour ( I didn't finish the book so perhaps she restored some balance later on; her style of writing has never appealed to me, I don't like people who insert themselves into historic situations and then act as if those emotional reactions are relevant to the history) as much as her feelings about polygamy. She was embarrassed by the divorce (pg 34), but even there it is used to focus on her horror over polygamy.. His being gay is treated as an aside (pg 20) to his comment about taking another woman as one of his celestial wives (and he is not joking but serious according to Pearson). I don't have a problem with advocacy in and of itself, but it comes across as unrealistic and dishonest to ignore other significant issues. Goodbye, I Love You is the one I'm referring to.
Atheist Mormon Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 53 minutes ago, USU78 said: It's her advocacy for embracement of her abuser that offends me. Okay, I don't get it...Who is/was the abuser?
USU78 Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said: Okay, I don't get it...Who is/was the abuser? The narcissist betrayer of wife and children who successfully convinced her to care for him through his last Illness. Stockholm Syndrome.
Calm Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 20 minutes ago, USU78 said: Goodbye, I Love You is the one I'm referring to. I haven't read that. I know my sister hated it as it seemed to her that she was condemned for being angry that her husband had lied to her and cheated on her with men and drugs and for wanting to hold him responsible for those choices. It came out around the time my sister went through her divorce. 1
USU78 Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 Just now, Calm said: I haven't read that. I know my sister hated it as it seemed to her that she was condemned for being angry that her husband had lied to her and cheated on her with men and drugs and for wanting to hold him responsible for those choices. It came out around the time my sister went through her divorce. She cashed in on her celebrity from that book with speaking engagements, advising abandoned women to follow her example by taking their aids infected former spouses back and caring for them. As if they hadn't sacrificed enough on that altar.
Atheist Mormon Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 15 hours ago, USU78 said: The narcissist betrayer of wife and children who successfully convinced her to care for him through his last Illness. Stockholm Syndrome. Great wisdom....I can't help but admire.
USU78 Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 9 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said: Great wisdom....I can't help but admire. Glad I could help.
Atheist Mormon Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 1 hour ago, USU78 said: Glad I could help. Yea, I did not hear this perspective about her before.......
USU78 Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said: Yea, I did not hear this perspective about her before....... I've heard it said: be careful of your sympathies. It's fine to have sympathy for the admittedly unhappy lot of the married homosexual male. It's quite another thing to have that sympathy trump all other considerations. The 40-something married male: is his sexual fulfillment more important than his covenantal relationships? Is it more important than the pain he causes his wife and children [not to mention others] by opening his yap? Is it more important than the pain he causes by abandoning spouse and children? Is it more important than the pain he causes by trumpeting the bedroom secrets that every spouse should expect should be kept private? If you vote yes to all the above, as you appear to do, explain why his pushing-middle-age-sexual-fulfillment is of a higher order, trumping those things I list [and I could list a lot more]? Edited July 16, 2018 by USU78
jkwilliams Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 1 minute ago, USU78 said: I've heard it said: be careful of your sympathies. It's fine to have sympathy for the admittedly unhappy lot of the married homosexual male. It's quite another thing to have that sympathy trump all other considerations. The 40-something married male: is his sexual fulfillment more important than his covenantal relationships? Is it more important than the pain he causes by opening his yap will cause wife and children? Is it more important than the pain he causes by abandoning spouse and children? Is it more important than the pain he causes by trumpting the bedroom secrets that every spouse should expect to keep private? If you vote yes to all the above, as you appear to do, explain why his pushing-middle-age-sexual-fulfillment is of a higher order, trumping those things I list [and I could list a lot more]? Admittedly, I know next to nothing about Carol Lynn Pearson other than that she was on a blacklist of people we couldn't quote when I worked at the COB. My understanding was that she forgave her husband for what he did and treated him compassionately. You seem to be suggesting that she championed and celebrated his actions. I mean, maybe she did, but if so, she'd have to be a little crazy.
USU78 Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 13 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Admittedly, I know next to nothing about Carol Lynn Pearson other than that she was on a blacklist of people we couldn't quote when I worked at the COB. My understanding was that she forgave her husband for what he did and treated him compassionately. You seem to be suggesting that she championed and celebrated his actions. I mean, maybe she did, but if so, she'd have to be a little crazy. No, you misunderstand. I have personal knowledge of her advising women (a) not to divorce their homosexual, cheating husbands, and (b) to follow her example by taking said homosexual, cheating husbands back into their bosoms when they catch something that won't wash off. My position is that the man who would ask that of the ex-wife he cheated on and whom he abandoned to pursue sexual fulfillment is an abuser. To advise anybody to allow her sympathies to be so abused is insane, IMNSHO.
jkwilliams Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 1 minute ago, USU78 said: No, you misunderstand. I have personal knowledge of her advising women (a) not to divorce their homosexual, cheating husbands, and (b) to follow her example by taking said homosexual, cheating husbands back into their bosoms when they catch something that won't wash off. My position is that the man who would ask that of the ex-wife he cheated on and whom he abandoned to pursue sexual fulfillment is an abuser. To advise anybody to allow her sympathies to be so abused is insane, IMNSHO. Well, I do not have such knowledge, so it's difficult to pass judgment from your secondhand information. As I said, if she was doing something like that, it's kind of crazy.
USU78 Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 1 hour ago, jkwilliams said: Well, I do not have such knowledge, so it's difficult to pass judgment from your secondhand information. As I said, if she was doing something like that, it's kind of crazy. No argument here.
california boy Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, USU78 said: No, you misunderstand. I have personal knowledge of her advising women (a) not to divorce their homosexual, cheating husbands, and (b) to follow her example by taking said homosexual, cheating husbands back into their bosoms when they catch something that won't wash off. My position is that the man who would ask that of the ex-wife he cheated on and whom he abandoned to pursue sexual fulfillment is an abuser. To advise anybody to allow her sympathies to be so abused is insane, IMNSHO. Sorry, but I think you are grossly distorting what Carol Lynn Person has said. So CFR your claims. Let us be able to look at exactly what she has said for you to make such an accusation and decide for ourselves what exactly she has done rather than just hearing your accusations that I think are quite unfair and distorted. Carol Lynn Pearson was in my stake for many years. i am quite familiar with a lot of the work she has done to bring greater understanding towards the LGBT community. I gave my father her book "Circle the Wagons" which he read. It was one of the big factors that changed his attitude toward me after not having much to do with me since he found out I was gay for 13 years. So I am VERY interested in seeing your proof for your accusations. Edited July 16, 2018 by california boy 1
USU78 Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 16 minutes ago, california boy said: Sorry, but I think you are grossly distorting what Carol Lynn Person has said. So CFR your claims. Let us be able to look at exactly what she has said for you to make such an accusation and decide for ourselves what exactly she has done rather than just hearing your accusations that I think are quite unfair and distorted. Carol Lynn Pearson was in my stake for many years. i am quite familiar with a lot of the work she has done to bring greater understanding towards the LGBT community. I gave my father her book "Circle the Wagons" which he read. It was one of the big factors that changed his attitude toward me after not having much to do with me since he found out I was gay for 13 years. So I am VERY interested in seeing your proof for your accusations. You cannot shout me down via CFR. I know these things. These are my own knowledge. I've never published them anywhere, and I'm never going to give the names of those involved because that would be intolerably immoral. So go ahead and report me for not giving the names of people Pearson spoke with, both as member(s) of group(s) to whom she spoke, and/or individual(s) with whom she agreed to meet privately. If you wish to engage me head on and make an argument in favor of homosexual husbands doing their wives and children a favor, go ahead and do it. Are you quite sure you want to? The necessary personalization of these matters is such that nobody is going to be happy about it. By personalizing you will be inviting cross-examination and judgment. Are you quite sure you want to?
USU78 Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Tacky is something that doesn't wash off. AIDS is tackier.
Atheist Mormon Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 2 hours ago, USU78 said: I've heard it said: be careful of your sympathies. It's fine to have sympathy for the admittedly unhappy lot of the married homosexual male. It's quite another thing to have that sympathy trump all other considerations. The 40-something married male: is his sexual fulfillment more important than his covenantal relationships? Is it more important than the pain he causes his wife and children [not to mention others] by opening his yap? Is it more important than the pain he causes by abandoning spouse and children? Is it more important than the pain he causes by trumpeting the bedroom secrets that every spouse should expect should be kept private? If you vote yes to all the above, as you appear to do, explain why his pushing-middle-age-sexual-fulfillment is of a higher order, trumping those things I list [and I could list a lot more]? I don't think we are going to sway our opinions one way or the other.....But I wasn't talking or thinking one iota about that Homosexual guy who was married to Carol. I was specifically talking about a Mormon Girl...Who was brilliant beyond description...Who pierced our hearts with her celestial poems, who was in our room every Christmas eve with her enchanted tales...I really did not care about him or thought about....But Carol was a beacon among poor and low echelons Mormons like me & my family, she did not have much voice except my wife's insistence of getting her books and reading to our kids....Those precious memories I will never forget.....Facing her poems was like walking in a room full of Minerva Teichert paintings or reading Juanita Brooks' "Mountain Meadow massacre"...... If you do not own heroines up to.....we will.....
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