USU78 Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 32 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said: I don't think we are going to sway our opinions one way or the other.....But I wasn't talking or thinking one iota about that Homosexual guy who was married to Carol. I was specifically talking about a Mormon Girl...Who was brilliant beyond description...Who pierced our hearts with her celestial poems, who was in our room every Christmas eve with her enchanted tales...I really did not care about him or thought about....But Carol was a beacon among poor and low echelons Mormons like me & my family, she did not have much voice except my wife's insistence of getting her books and reading to our kids....Those precious memories I will never forget.....Facing her poems was like walking in a room full of Minerva Teichert paintings or reading Juanita Brooks' "Mountain Meadow massacre"...... If you do not own heroines up to.....we will..... You get that I don't share your taste, aesthetic sense or opinion as to Carol's place in the universe.
Atheist Mormon Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 53 minutes ago, USU78 said: You get that I don't share your taste, aesthetic sense or opinion as to Carol's place in the universe. No, not judgmental..but we have our own imaginations/dreams of our memories.........There's nothing right or wrong about it.....
USU78 Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 7 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said: No, not judgmental..but we have our own imaginations/dreams of our memories.........There's nothing right or wrong about it..... Agreed
Atheist Mormon Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 11 minutes ago, USU78 said: Agreed Thank you....I appreciate your understanding...Being an Atheist but living in Utah most my life.....This is my culture...The air I breathe......
california boy Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 7 hours ago, USU78 said: You cannot shout me down via CFR. I know these things. These are my own knowledge. I've never published them anywhere, and I'm never going to give the names of those involved because that would be intolerably immoral. So go ahead and report me for not giving the names of people Pearson spoke with, both as member(s) of group(s) to whom she spoke, and/or individual(s) with whom she agreed to meet privately. If you wish to engage me head on and make an argument in favor of homosexual husbands doing their wives and children a favor, go ahead and do it. Are you quite sure you want to? The necessary personalization of these matters is such that nobody is going to be happy about it. By personalizing you will be inviting cross-examination and judgment. Are you quite sure you want to? So it is a baseless accusation. She certainly has written enough and published enough on this subject that if she had actually said anything close to what you wrote, you would have been able to answer the CFR. Good to know. I am not asking for names. That is a red herring. If I was to make the statement and claim it as fact that President Nelson was gay and was having an affair, but I can't reveal who told me, you would go nuts. And rightly so. Your accusations against Carol Lynn Pe4son deserve to be proven or withdrawn. You know the rules. Answer the CFR or WITHDRAW the accusation. CFR's are not designed to shut down anyone. They are designed to do exactly this. Prove claims that are made or call them what thy are, unsubstantiated accusations. It is especially important when someone makes false statements against an individual. 2
kllindley Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 9 minutes ago, california boy said: So it is a baseless accusation. She certainly has written enough and published enough on this subject that if she had actually said anything close to what you wrote, you would have been able to answer the CFR. Good to know. I am not asking for names. That is a red herring. If I was to make the statement and claim it as fact that President Nelson was gay and was having an affair, but I can't reveal who told me, you would go nuts. And rightly so. Your accusations against Carol Lynn Pe4son deserve to be proven or withdrawn. You know the rules. Answer the CFR or WITHDRAW the accusation. CFR's are not designed to shut down anyone. They are designed to do exactly this. Prove claims that are made or call them what thy are, unsubstantiated accusations. It is especially important when someone makes false statements against an individual. This is like me calling for a CFR that your leaders told you getting married would make you straight. 1
california boy Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, kllindley said: This is like me calling for a CFR that your leaders told you getting married would make you straight. Except we did find written policies addressing the church practice at the time. People could decide for themselves based on the evidence presented. There was a whole thread talking about the documentation of this issue. And I certainly was not alone in making that claim. We have the testimony of many other gay men who received similar counsel. If you would like I would even be glad to revisit this subject in a thread that is relevant on this subject if you want to start one. One easy thing I could probably do is post something on the Advocate.org website, the same organization that the church donated the money to and see what kind of response I get. If you want to start another thread on this issue, I would be more than happy to provide further documentation on this issue. Edited July 17, 2018 by california boy 1
kllindley Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 8 minutes ago, california boy said: Except we did find written policies addressing the church practice at the time. People could decide for themselves based on the evidence presented. There was a whole thread talking about the documentation of this issue. And I certainly was not alone in making that claim. We have the testimony of many other gay men who received similar counsel. If you would like I would even be glad to revisit this subject in a thread that is relevant on this subject if you want to start one. One easy thing I could probably do is post something on the Advocate.org website, the same organization that the church donated the money to and see what kind of response I get. If you want to start another thread on this issue, I would be more than happy to provide further documentation on this issue. I'm not suggesting that I doubt you. I don't. I may quibble a tiny bit about the language, sociopolitical divides about definitions, and intend meaning. But I'm not trying to doubt you. I'm stating that your specific claim (that a particular Priesthood leader said such and such is not provable unless you secretly recorded a private conversation. I'm just pointing out that USU78's claim was that he was personally familiar with situations where Carol Lynn Pearson gave such counsel to other women. That's not something that has a reference to call for. Whether he was clear enough in labeling it his personal experience is debatable. 2
california boy Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 5 hours ago, kllindley said: I'm not suggesting that I doubt you. I don't. I may quibble a tiny bit about the language, sociopolitical divides about definitions, and intend meaning. But I'm not trying to doubt you. I'm stating that your specific claim (that a particular Priesthood leader said such and such is not provable unless you secretly recorded a private conversation. I'm just pointing out that USU78's claim was that he was personally familiar with situations where Carol Lynn Pearson gave such counsel to other women. That's not something that has a reference to call for. Whether he was clear enough in labeling it his personal experience is debatable. Fair enough. And I didn't say anything until he started to sway other posters to his view of what Carol Lynn Pearson stood for and taught. That is when I felt like I should nail him down to exactly what his claim was. I can't argue with what he says he heard. But I can argue that this is something that Carol Lynn Pearson taught on a regular basis. As I pointed out, she has certainly written enough books and plays about this subject to get a pretty good idea how she personally feels about this issue. I felt like someone needed to be real clear that what USU78 was claiming is not an established fact.
USU78 Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 5 hours ago, california boy said: So it is a baseless accusation. She certainly has written enough and published enough on this subject that if she had actually said anything close to what you wrote, you would have been able to answer the CFR. Good to know. I am not asking for names. That is a red herring. If I was to make the statement and claim it as fact that President Nelson was gay and was having an affair, but I can't reveal who told me, you would go nuts. And rightly so. Your accusations against Carol Lynn Pe4son deserve to be proven or withdrawn. You know the rules. Answer the CFR or WITHDRAW the accusation. CFR's are not designed to shut down anyone. They are designed to do exactly this. Prove claims that are made or call them what thy are, unsubstantiated accusations. It is especially important when someone makes false statements against an individual. No. I don't betray dead or alive people.
JulieM Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) On 7/15/2018 at 7:28 PM, USU78 said: She cashed in on her celebrity from that book with speaking engagements, advising abandoned women to follow her example by taking their aids infected former spouses back and caring for them. As if they hadn't sacrificed enough on that altar. I know that she very selflessly and in an unconditional loving, Christlike way took care of her dying husband after he’d originally left her. But do you have a source that she advised other women to “follow her example by taking their aids infected former spouses back and caring for them”? You need to back up that accusation (and that she made money off of advising that) or just maybe say it’s what your opinion is (or withdraw it). You’ve stated a definite accusation and a CFR has been issued. There are board rules about your need to respond with references or withdraw your statement. Edited July 17, 2018 by JulieM 1
ALarson Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) On 7/15/2018 at 7:01 PM, USU78 said: Goodbye, I Love You is the one I'm referring to. Did you read her book? I did and it was a beautifully written book regarding her experiences. Her husband was honest with her before they married (about his attraction to other men), but they believed as many at that time (and as local leaders were directed to advise) that it would help and that they should still get married.. She's an extraordinary woman who went through a tremendous amount of pain and betrayal....only to also be the type of loving, forgiving woman to take her husband back home when he was dying and care for him. Your portrayal of her is unfair (IMO), but you are entitled to your opinion, of course. I know a CFR has been issued already, but I'll add my request for a reference in the book you name. You state that she: Quote And Carol Lynn Pearson is hardly a witness worth listening to: repeating self-serving, malicious slanders doesn't make you an expert or even reliable. On 7/15/2018 at 7:28 PM, USU78 said: She cashed in on her celebrity from that book with speaking engagements, advising abandoned women to follow her example by taking their aids infected former spouses back and caring for them. Please give a reference for where she has done this (I don't remember her doing that in her book). Edited July 17, 2018 by ALarson 3
ALarson Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, kllindley said: This is like me calling for a CFR that your leaders told you getting married would make you straight. But there are references (in writing) that the church leaders advised local leaders to encourage or instruct gay members to date the opposite sex and marry. So no, it's not the same. So far, USU has not responded to the CFR issued and he has not provided any references or quotes to back up his accusations and claims regarding Carol Lynn Pearson.. Edited July 17, 2018 by ALarson 2
kllindley Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 Just now, ALarson said: But there are references (in writing) that the church leaders advised local leaders to encourage or instruct gay members to date the opposite sex and marry. So no, it's not the same. Already discussed. BTW: I know you have said that you have done a lot of reading on the subject. Have you bothered to read "In Quiet Desperation" or "Voices of Hope?"
kllindley Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 1 hour ago, JulieM said: I know that she very selflessly and in an unconditional loving, Christlike way took care of her dying husband after he’d originally left her. But do you have a source that she advised other women to “follow her example by taking their aids infected former spouses back and caring for them”? You need to back up that accusation (and that she made money off of advising that) or just maybe say it’s what your opinion is (or withdraw it). You’ve stated a definite accusation and a CFR has been issued. There are board rules about your need to respond with references or withdraw your statement. I don't think you're understanding what USU78 is actually claiming. Otherwise it looks like you are deliberately trying to misrepresent him.
USU78 Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 16 minutes ago, kllindley said: I don't think you're understanding what USU78 is actually claiming. Otherwise it looks like you are deliberately trying to misrepresent him. Thanks for kind words.
JulieM Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 23 minutes ago, kllindley said: I don't think you're understanding what USU78 is actually claiming. Otherwise it looks like you are deliberately trying to misrepresent him. I directly quoted him, he stated this about Pearson: "She cashed in on her celebrity from that book with speaking engagements, advising abandoned women to follow her example by taking their aids infected former spouses back and caring for them." http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70764-lds-church-donates-25k-to-affirmation-re-suicide-prevention-training/?do=findComment&comment=1209834713 And he also stated this: "And Carol Lynn Pearson is hardly a witness worth listening to: repeating self-serving, malicious slanders doesn't make you an expert or even reliable." And this: "It's her advocacy for embracement of her abuser that offends me." http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70764-lds-church-donates-25k-to-affirmation-re-suicide-prevention-training/?do=findComment&comment=1209834704 And that she did this in this specific book (so he should be able to provide page numbers and actual quotes): "Goodbye, I Love You is the one I'm referring to." http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70764-lds-church-donates-25k-to-affirmation-re-suicide-prevention-training/?do=findComment&comment=1209834708 He needs to respond properly to the CFR and provide source for his statements against Pearson or withdraw them. It’s a board rule to do so. He clearly states that what he’s accusing her of doing, was in her book (he names the book), so a reference should be easy for him to post here. Edited July 17, 2018 by JulieM 3
ALarson Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 11 minutes ago, USU78 said: Thanks for kind words. If you've been misrepresented (by several of us quoting your ACTUAL words regarding what you are accusing Carol Lynn Pearson of doing), maybe you'd like to correct or clarify what you specifically stated about her. I'm willing to allow that you were mistaken with what you accused her of doing (or that you have no sources to back up your claims).
ALarson Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 41 minutes ago, kllindley said: Already discussed. BTW: I know you have said that you have done a lot of reading on the subject. Have you bothered to read "In Quiet Desperation" or "Voices of Hope?" Yes, I own both of those books (actually I just checked and have one of them on Kindle). I prefer Voices of Hope, but thought they both were well written. Edited July 17, 2018 by ALarson
kllindley Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 11 minutes ago, JulieM said: I directly quoted him, he stated this about Pearson: "She cashed in on her celebrity from that book with speaking engagements, advising abandoned women to follow her example by taking their aids infected former spouses back and caring for them." http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70764-lds-church-donates-25k-to-affirmation-re-suicide-prevention-training/?do=findComment&comment=1209834713 And he also stated this: "And Carol Lynn Pearson is hardly a witness worth listening to: repeating self-serving, malicious slanders doesn't make you an expert or even reliable." And this: "It's her advocacy for embracement of her abuser that offends me." http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70764-lds-church-donates-25k-to-affirmation-re-suicide-prevention-training/?do=findComment&comment=1209834704 And that she did this in this specific book (so he should be able to provide page numbers and actual quotes): "Goodbye, I Love You is the one I'm referring to." http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70764-lds-church-donates-25k-to-affirmation-re-suicide-prevention-training/?do=findComment&comment=1209834708 He needs to respond properly to the CFR and provide source for his statements against Pearson or withdraw them. It’s a board rule to do so. He clearly states that what he’s accusing her of doing, was in her book (he names the book), so a reference should be easy for him to post here. Actually he states that she used the celebrity of the book to influence and speak to other women. If you'll read the comments he was responding to, it helps clarify things. He said he was referring to the book, but the only time he references it is to say that she used her celebrity from the book to gain speaking engagements and offer personal counsel.
ALarson Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, kllindley said: Actually he states that she used the celebrity of the book to influence and speak to other women. No, he actually stated what Julie (and others have quoted and then provided the actual links to where he stated it in more than one post). How about you allow USU to correct or clarify what he meant if it wasn't what he has specifically stated in his posts? He's made some pretty specific accusations about Carol Lynn Pearson and even named the book where she did what he's accusing her of doing. I don't think he could have been more clear regarding what his meaning was. But, I'm still open to hear that he misspoke or has nothing to back up his claims (and that it's just his own view or opinion). Edited July 17, 2018 by ALarson 1
kllindley Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, ALarson said: Yes, I own both of those books. I prefer Voices of Hope, but thought they both were well written. Cool. I appreciate that. Thanks for taking the time to read that perspective. 1
ALarson Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 1 minute ago, kllindley said: Cool. I appreciate that. Thanks for taking the time to read that perspective. It's an important and very valid perspective, IMO. This is a difficult topic and that's why I don't really like anyone being vilified for how they've chosen to deal with it or live their lives. Edited July 17, 2018 by ALarson 1
kllindley Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 17 hours ago, USU78 said: No, you misunderstand. I have personal knowledge of her advising women (a) not to divorce their homosexual, cheating husbands, and (b) to follow her example by taking said homosexual, cheating husbands back into their bosoms when they catch something that won't wash off. That is his own words. To put his other quotes out of order and to omit a quote like this is dishonest. But you're content on making USU78 out to be the bad guy, so I'll drop that. 2
ALarson Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, kllindley said: That is his own words. To put his other quotes out of order and to omit a quote like this is dishonest. But you're content on making USU78 out to be the bad guy, so I'll drop that. I'm not trying to make him the bad guy. He needs to back up his accusations and claims (he even named the book where he states she does what he claims). He should at least withdraw that, if he's only giving his opinion on what she meant when she was speaking publicly. Or he should provide quotes backing up that too if he's not stating that as just his opinion. He's being very unfair here to Pearson, IMO and a CFR has been issued. Where has she stated that women should not "divorce their homosexual, cheating husbands"? Where has she stated that women should "follow her example by taking said homosexual, cheating husbands back into their bosoms when they catch something that won't wash off"? Those are specific accusations and he needs to respond to the CFR. Edited July 17, 2018 by ALarson 1
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