LDS Church Donates $25K to Affirmation (Re: Suicide Prevention Training)

[Tacenda]

39 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The VP for Affirmation has resigned because affirmation accepted the church's donation for suicide prevention. She equated it to hiring an arsonist to fight fires. Harsh.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/07/18/affirmation-veep-resigns/

I saw this, and it started me onto thinking about the amount the church gave. I'm going to get reamed for saying this, but the amount was too low. For example, my dad at a restaurant while a child did something I'll never forget. The service must have been deplorable for my dad to do this, because it usually wasn't his nature to be so rude. But he left a nickel and some pennies for a tip. So in a way, the church only giving this much bothers me. They receive how much in tithing from wards each week across the world that would be millions. And 25,000 is all they give? It's almost a slap in the face. I wonder why the low amount? Ok, bring it on people. Or ignore my comment, maybe best. 

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I saw this, and it started me onto thinking about the amount the church gave. I'm going to get reamed for saying this, but the amount was too low. For example, my dad at a restaurant while a child did something I'll never forget. The service must have been deplorable for my dad to do this, because it usually wasn't his nature to be so rude. But he left a nickel and some pennies for a tip. So in a way, the church only giving this much bothers me. They receive how much in tithing from wards each week across the world that would be millions. And 25,000 is all they give? It's almost a slap in the face. I wonder why the low amount? Ok, bring it on people. Or ignore my comment, maybe best. 

I have to disagree, respectfully. Affirmation requested a specific amount, and the church gave them more than they asked for. 

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

I have to disagree, respectfully. Affirmation requested a specific amount, and the church gave them more than they asked for. 

I didn't know that, well that puts it into better perspective. Thanks! It sure would have helped had I read the info with the OP.

[kllindley]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The VP for Affirmation has resigned because affirmation accepted the church's donation for suicide prevention. She equated it to hiring an arsonist to fight fires. Harsh.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/07/18/affirmation-veep-resigns/

That fits wholly with my judgement of Affirmation. Unfortunate. Unfortunately not unsurprising.

[kllindley]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

If you don't know how to back up an assertion when you're called on it, perhaps you shouldn't have made the assertion in the first place. 

So can you back up your assertion about your friend telling you about the conversation about your blog at COB?

[kllindley]

3 hours ago, USU78 said:

How?

I had to reword my comment on the Dan Reynolds thread from something like "Dan Reynolds used the mormonandgay footage without permission and out of context." To "Two of the people whose videos were used in the documentary td me that their videos were used without permission and out if context."

[Calm]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

If you don't know how to back up an assertion when you're called on it, perhaps you shouldn't have made the assertion in the first place. 

His assertion was he personally was aware of situations where Pearson counseled women a certain way.

He clarified the understandable misinterpretation that he was talking about the book providing the counseling rather than the opportunities to do the counseling.  

Since it is personal experience similar to saying "my bishop said at the pulpit today and at other times in personal conversations I am aware of.....", it is anecdotal and can be rated in the same way other anecdotal evidence is shared...dismissed if you think the person's bias is strong enough for him to misread what was going on, or that he is lying or accepted if you have found him credible in other ways or ignored because you believe anecdotal evidence is pretty useless generally speaking.

He has stated she did not say it in her book.  You can choose to view that as a retraction or clarification, but I don't see how you can continue to ask for documentation of something he says doesn't exist.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Calm

[ALarson]

23 minutes ago, kllindley said:

So can you back up your assertion about your friend telling you about the conversation about your blog at COB?

I think the difference is that jkwilliams presented it as just a friend relating something to him and not as a blanket statement  (such as Carol Lynn Pearson advises women not to "divorce their homosexual, cheating husbands" or that all women should "follow her example by taking said homosexual, cheating husbands back into their bosoms when they catch something that won't wash off").  Those types of accusations or claims need to be backed up with actual quotes or references (or just admit that what you're saying is anecdotal and it was told to you by a friend).

[ALarson]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

He has stated she did not say it in her book.  You can choose to view that as a retraction or clarification, but I don't see how you can continue to ask for documentation of something he says doesn't exist.

Then he should state that it was just anecdotal and withdraw the specific, unfair accusations against Pearson, IMO.  He hasn't done that as far as I've seen.  He's just said that he's not able to give up his source (unless I missed where he withdrew what he's accusing her of doing regarding women who are married to gay men or men with AIDS).

For all we know, he's only talking about one case and we don't know all of the circumstances.  If that's what Pearson thought was right in that case, she may have expressed her feelings....but we can't know unless we have more details.  I understand why USU doesn't want to breach the trust of a friend, but then he should frame it that way instead of stating it like that specific advise is something that Pearson routinely recommends for all women in that situation.

Edited July 18, 2018 by ALarson

[jkwilliams]

37 minutes ago, kllindley said:

So can you back up your assertion about your friend telling you about the conversation about your blog at COB?

Sure. I’m quite sure he’d be happy to repeat the story. Of course, I wasn’t recounting that story to attack anyone’s character. I know a lot of private stories I could share that could hurt someone’s public image, but I would never share them because it would be difficult to back them up. 

[kllindley]

38 minutes ago, kllindley said:

That fits wholly with my judgement of Affirmation. Unfortunate. Unfortunately not unsurprising.

Further, and maybe not so incidentally, this individual is also a leader in the Mama Dragons organization. 

[JulieM]

30 minutes ago, Calm said:

He has stated she did not say it in her book.

He posted that some of what he’s claiming against her was in one of her books (and names the book “Goodbye, I Love You”).

(I’ll try to find those posts and edit with the links added if I do.)

Edited July 18, 2018 by JulieM

[jkwilliams]

35 minutes ago, Calm said:

His assertion was he personally was aware of situations where Pearson counseled women a certain way.

He clarified the understandable misinterpretation that he was talking about the book providing the counseling rather than the opportunities to do the counseling.  

Since it is personal experience similar to saying "my bishop said at the pulpit today and at other times in personal conversations I am aware of.....", it is anecdotal and can be rated in the same way other anecdotal evidence is shared...dismissed if you think the person's bias is strong enough for him to misread what was going on, or that he is lying or accepted if you have found him credible in other ways or ignored because you believe anecdotal evidence is pretty useless generally speaking.

He has stated she did not say it in her book.  You can choose to view that as a retraction or clarification, but I don't see how you can continue to ask for documentation of something he says doesn't exist.

I haven’t seen such clarification, but I may have missed it. 

[kllindley]

20 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I think the difference is that jkwilliams presented it as just a friend relating something to him and not as a blanket statement  (such as Carol Lynn Pearson advises women not to "divorce their homosexual, cheating husbands" or that all women should "follow her example by taking said homosexual, cheating husbands back into their bosoms when they catch something that won't wash off").  Those types of accusations or claims need to be backed up with actual quotes or references (or just admit that what you're saying is anecdotal and it was told to you by a friend).

That's a fair expectation. I understood him to be saying that. YMMV.

10 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Sure. I’m quite sure he’d be happy to repeat the story. Of course, I wasn’t recounting that story to attack anyone’s character. I know a lot of private stories I could share that could hurt someone’s public image, but I would never share them because it would be difficult to back them up. 

I can appreciate that. 

[JulieM]

15 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I haven’t seen such clarification, but I may have missed it. 

Here’s what USU claimed was in her book (that he then names).  I also haven’t seen him withdraw that accusation (here’s links to his statements:)

"And Carol Lynn Pearson is hardly a witness worth listening to:  repeating self-serving, malicious slanders doesn't make you an expert or even reliable."

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70764-lds-church-donates-25k-to-affirmation-re-suicide-prevention-training/?do=findComment&comment=1209834085
 

 "It's her advocacy for embracement of her abuser that offends me."

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70764-lds-church-donates-25k-to-affirmation-re-suicide-prevention-training/?do=findComment&comment=1209834704

"Goodbye, I Love You is the one I'm referring to."

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70764-lds-church-donates-25k-to-affirmation-re-suicide-prevention-training/?do=findComment&comment=1209834708

Then USU added this accusation:

"She cashed in on her celebrity from that book with speaking engagements, advising abandoned women to follow her example by taking their aids infected former spouses back and caring for them."

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70764-lds-church-donates-25k-to-affirmation-re-suicide-prevention-training/?do=findComment&comment=1209834713

He continued adding other claims and accusations, but refused to supply any references or quotes from Carol Lynn Pearson to back up what he was accusing her of doing.
 

I haven’t seen where he’s withdrawn any of these, but he has refused to supply references.

Edited July 18, 2018 by JulieM

[ALarson]

10 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Here’s what USU claimed was in her book (that he then names).  I also haven’t seen him withdraw that accusation (here’s links to his statements:)

"And Carol Lynn Pearson is hardly a witness worth listening to:  repeating self-serving, malicious slanders doesn't make you an expert or even reliable."

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70764-lds-church-donates-25k-to-affirmation-re-suicide-prevention-training/?do=findComment&comment=1209834085
 

 "It's her advocacy for embracement of her abuser that offends me."

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70764-lds-church-donates-25k-to-affirmation-re-suicide-prevention-training/?do=findComment&comment=1209834704

"Goodbye, I Love You is the one I'm referring to."

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70764-lds-church-donates-25k-to-affirmation-re-suicide-prevention-training/?do=findComment&comment=1209834708

Then USU added this accusation:

"She cashed in on her celebrity from that book with speaking engagements, advising abandoned women to follow her example by taking their aids infected former spouses back and caring for them."

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70764-lds-church-donates-25k-to-affirmation-re-suicide-prevention-training/?do=findComment&comment=1209834713

He continued adding other claims and accusations, but refused to supply any references or quotes from Carol Lynn Pearson to back up what he was accusing her of doing.
 

I haven’t seen where he’s withdrawn any of these, but he has refused to supply references.

Good compilation of part of what USU has stated here against Pearson.

Bottom line is that he just needed to state that it was his opinion after reading her book or listening to her speak (if he's done this).  

I highly doubt that Carol Lynn Pearson is recommending that ALL women should embrace and remain with their gay husband who has abused or cheated on them.  That's simply a ridiculous claim.

I also believe he's wrong that she'd advise all women who'd divorced a gay husband and who later is dying of AIDS, to bring them back to their "bosom" and take care of them until they die.  

Just because she is sharing her experiences and how they affected her life, does not mean she's advocating for all women in her position to mirror what she did.

Edited July 18, 2018 by ALarson

[Calm]

Quote

She cashed in on her celebrity from that book with speaking engagements, advising abandoned women to follow her example by taking their aids infected former spouses back and caring for them."

He clarified this was anecdotal, personal experience.

Quote

It's her advocacy for embracement of her abuser that offends me

This is personal interpretation, he sees her ex husband as abusive and Pearson's taking him in and publicizing the experience as positive is offensive to him, a personal reaction.

Goodbye, I love you is the book he is saying turned her into an authority for people, not the source of the counseling.

Quote

And Carol Lynn Pearson is hardly a witness worth listening to:  repeating self-serving, malicious slanders doesn't make you an expert or even reliable

I assume it is the self serving, malicious slanders you are CFRing.  This is a CFR I see as reasonable if he hasn't clarified what he means already.

I believe he is describing her negative comments about the Church as malicious and self serving. The labels to me are personal reactions and should, imo, be identified as such.  Can't remember if he does that or not. I wouldn't call them either, but I think they are slanders in the sense she is placing blame on the Church for causing her marriage problems and other issues without sufficient context, context that I believe would show the Church culture may have contributed but does not bear the level of responsibility she places on it (I documented the pages where she does this in her Polygamy book though I didn't quote, but paraphrased...I would not be surprised if other people interpreted it differently because it is as much what she leaves out that gives me that impression).

If you don't accept she says negative things about the Church, condemns certain teachings and doctrine as errors, that should be documented, imo.  If he has in mind something different, that should probably be clarified.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Calm

[carbon dioxide]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The VP for Affirmation has resigned because affirmation accepted the church's donation for suicide prevention. She equated it to hiring an arsonist to fight fires. Harsh.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/07/18/affirmation-veep-resigns/

Harsh yes but arsonists actually start fires.  The LDS Church does not cause the suicide of anyone.  It does not provide the gun, pills, rope, or anything else and tell anyone "Go kill yourself" so its a very lame argument to make.

Edited July 18, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I saw this, and it started me onto thinking about the amount the church gave. I'm going to get reamed for saying this, but the amount was too low. For example, my dad at a restaurant while a child did something I'll never forget. The service must have been deplorable for my dad to do this, because it usually wasn't his nature to be so rude. But he left a nickel and some pennies for a tip. So in a way, the church only giving this much bothers me. They receive how much in tithing from wards each week across the world that would be millions. And 25,000 is all they give? It's almost a slap in the face. I wonder why the low amount? Ok, bring it on people. Or ignore my comment, maybe best. 

Perhaps $25,000 is all that is required for the what the purpose is.  One does not give millions to a project that can be accomplished by 25K.

Edited July 18, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[ALarson]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

He clarified this was anecdotal, personal experience.

Link?  I didn't see that he said that was anecdotal (I've only seen where he stated an experience was shared privately with him and he can't give that source's name....but nothing about her book tour.)

Also, do you have a link to where he withdrew his claim regarding what he stated was in her book?

(I tried to keep up with this thread, but must have missed both of those).

ETA:

Either way....

USU has simply thrown out too many specific accusations in his posts and has made to many specific claims against Pearson without providing one reference or source.  He needs to withdraw them or admit it's only his opinion and that she's never actually stated what hes accusing her of doing here (that he can prove or provide a source for other than saying.... Well, someone told me she said that, but I can't tell you who told me,).  

Come on, Calm....you'd be all over anyone trying to pull that if they were claiming a church leader had stated something and then they had no reference, no proof or no source other than "someone told me they said it".

 

Edited July 18, 2018 by ALarson

[Stargazer]

20 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Link?  I didn't see that he said that was anecdotal (I've only seen where he stated an experience was shared privately with him and he can't give that source's name....but nothing about her book tour.)

Also, do you have a link to where he withdrew his claim regarding what he stated was in her book?

(I tried to keep up with this thread, but must have missed both of those).

ETA:

Either way....

USU has simply thrown out too many specific accusations in his posts and has made to many specific claims against Pearson without providing one reference or source.  He needs to withdraw them or admit it's only his opinion and that she's never actually stated what hes accusing her of doing here (that he can prove or provide a source for other than saying.... Well, someone told me she said that, but I can't tell you who told me,).  

Come on, Calm....you'd be all over anyone trying to pull that if they were claiming a church leader had stated something and then they had no reference, no proof or no source other than "someone told me they said it".

 

Aside from the publicly visible information about Sis. Pearson's books, and what she did in respect of her own ex-husband, as I understood USU78, the things that he claims that she did, that he objects to, were not documented, but were things observed by him personally, and pertained to specific people about whom he had personal knowledge.

You literally CANNOT provide references to such a thing.  I saw my mother kissing Santa Claus is not something I can provide references for. Calling for references over something observed personally for which there is no documentation is not valid.  That is what I get out of it.

So, you can accept that USU78 observed something that he was not pleased with, or you can reject it as personal opinion that you don't agree with.  But a CFR in this case isn't applicable.

[Calm]

 

Quote

Come on, Calm....you'd be all over anyone trying to pull that if they were claiming a church leader had stated something and then they had no reference, no proof or no source other than "someone told me they said it".

 

The way I would be doing that is pointing out it was purely anecdotal/personal and therefore carried no weight for me.  I think .i just did this a day or two ago...stated I ignore interpretation about what a podcast says unless it is from someone who has demonstrated credibility to me in terms of how I also interpret stuff (right now I think I might limit that to klindley and Clark Goble though both post in limited topics and that might not apply outside of them) ,  I wouldn't be demanding they provide documentation for something they said was a personal experience.

I have challenged interpretations, but I don't believe I have ever challenged that they believe that is what they have been told.  For example, I get that Pearson believes deeply what she says about the Church, polygamy, and how it affected her marriage.  I would never challenge that her perceptions of the Church affected her that way.  What I disagree with is that she limits context so that it makes it more difficult for the reader to judge how much is accurate perception and how much is misinterpreted perception.

Her approach is similar imo to conversations about LGBT suicides that state the Church causes teen suicide while ignoring supportive teachings and studies that show positive effects of religion in suicides as well as other contributing factors (need to find documentation on this as I was given the name but haven't looked it up yet, but in a conversation with a researcher he stated that a key coorelation for gay suicide was the recent breakup of a gay relationship and this was the case in his personal knowledge of two suicides/attempts...which has nothing to do with the Church as far as I can see).  Such conversations become driven by emotion, imo, and are therefore unlikely to arrive at effective solutions because humans are often counterintuitive in their behaviour.

I am not saying USU's approach was superior.  I think his comments are pretty much parallel to Pearson's in approach.

USU should provide the link, I am waiting for a call to go to an appt. and if it doesn't come, I will be taking a nap.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Calm

[ALarson]

9 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Aside from the publicly visible information about Sis. Pearson's books, and what she did in respect of her own ex-husband, as I understood USU78, the things that he claims that she did, that he objects to, were not documented, but were things observed by him personally, and pertained to specific people about whom he had personal knowledge.

You literally CANNOT provide references to such a thing. 

Agreed.  Then he needs to withdraw his accusations because as stated, he represents them as facts or as actual things that Pearson has advised, written or publicly stated. But then, he cannot give any references or quotes to back up his claims.  So he needs to provide references (and respond to the CFR that he's so flippantly refused to honor) or he needs to withdraw his specific claims against her. 

What he's done here is extremely unfair to do to anyone and no one would allow this here if it were being done against the Prophet or against any church leader.

The mods have weighed in here too.

Edited July 18, 2018 by ALarson

[ALarson]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

The way I would be doing that is pointing out it was purely anecdotal/personal and therefore carried no weight for me. 

Which is what USU needs to do here or provide references.  He's posted many accusations against Pearson (not just one slip up or one instance of misspeaking as if it were simply his opinion) and then he continued to do so even after a CFR was issued (which he just ignored and refused to answer). 

The mods dealt with it and I agree with them.

I'll back out now.... 

[JulieM]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

 I wouldn't be demanding they provide documentation for something they said was a personal experience.

Members here wouldn’t let someone get away with making insulting or unfair portrayals of a church leader without any references to show they were being accurate, even if they did say it was just an opinion.  USU posted so many unflattering and unsubstantiated slurs against Carol Lynn Pearson that he needs to be held accountable (also a CFR was asked for too).