kllindley Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 6 minutes ago, smac97 said: People in "Mormons Building Bridges" and "Mama Dragons" are upset at the Church's donation of funds to Affirmation? -Smac Oh yeah! I mean there were definitely some who appreciated it, but even those commenters got attacked. The prevailing sentiment was no amount of money matters until the doctrine is changed.
kllindley Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 3 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said: True, genuine efforts to bridge gaps and find common ground are rare. Most of the time, one side or the other is pushing their agenda, and spinning things as "look at us being all noble and bridging the gap and compromising and meeting halfway and stuff". Two data points: 1) The church is giving real money to a group that supports, in some ways, lifestyles not in accordance to church wishes and hopes. 2) A more vocal opponent of the church, vocally leaves the group. I have cautious hope that Affirmation's suicide prevention efforts may indeed be a good and noble thing. Me too. I hope I don't give the wrong impression that I think everyone associated with Affirmation is anti-church. Many are indeed noble and sincere.
HappyJackWagon Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 11 minutes ago, kllindley said: PS: if this is too much of a thread detail, let me know and I'll start a new thread. But, it is about LGBT suicide prevention and the Church. https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900025231/lds-church-comments-as-dan-reynolds-seeks-to-raise-dollar1-million-at-second-loveloud-music-fest.html But what I find most frustrating was Dan Reynolds tweeting this: Having the @LDSchurch support @LOVELOUDfest is an important step in creating a safer place for our LGBTQ youth of Orthodox Faith. W that said, unless our LGBTQ youth are embraced & unequivocally accepted at home/church & encouraged to love as they choose we are failing them. Makes perfect sense to me. IOW- lip service and money don't solve the problem of true intolerance. LGBTQ youth need to be embraced and accepted. Donated money doesn't change that.
kllindley Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 9 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: Makes perfect sense to me. IOW- lip service and money don't solve the problem of true intolerance. LGBTQ youth need to be embraced and accepted. Donated money doesn't change that. I have absolutely no disagreement with the idea that our LGBT youth need to be embraced and accepted. I think there is a lot of disagreement and a wide variety of views about which forms of acceptance "count." Untill we can have an honest discussion about acceptance, I highly doubt any changes will satisfy folks. #11 What are the main differences in how the “good news” of the gospel is being understood? http://www.flirtingwithcuriosity.org/?p=1829 #10 Is the LGBT-religious conservative conversation primarily about whether to love people (or not)? http://www.flirtingwithcuriosity.org/?p=1608 1
smac97 Posted July 19, 2018 Author Posted July 19, 2018 38 minutes ago, kllindley said: Quote People in "Mormons Building Bridges" and "Mama Dragons" are upset at the Church's donation of funds to Affirmation? Oh yeah! I mean there were definitely some who appreciated it, but even those commenters got attacked. The prevailing sentiment was no amount of money matters until the doctrine is changed. Okay. I'm sorry, I just want to be clear. There are people affiliated with "Mormons Building Bridges" and "Mama Dragons" who are demanding that the Church change its doctrines to conform to their expectations? Who are upset at the Church's donation of money earmarked to help with suicide prevention? This pretty much obliterates any respect I had for these organizations. The Mama Dragons have proven to be pretty irresponsible, so I had fairly low expectations of them. In contrast, I've admired the public sentiments of the "Mormons Building Bridges" folks. But if they are seriously demanding doctrinal changes and objecting to the Church donating money to suicide prevention efforts, then my estimation of them just took a big dive. Thanks, -Smac
california boy Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 54 minutes ago, kllindley said: Oh yeah! I mean there were definitely some who appreciated it, but even those commenters got attacked. The prevailing sentiment was no amount of money matters until the doctrine is changed. The church's generous donation is still on the front page of their web site.
california boy Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 (edited) 59 minutes ago, kllindley said: Me too. I hope I don't give the wrong impression that I think everyone associated with Affirmation is anti-church. Many are indeed noble and sincere. Quote 1 hour ago, kllindley said: Yeah, I commented on that a few pages back. I've read a lot of comments on her personal post-manifesto and discussion about it on Affirmation, Mormons Building Bridges, and Mama Dragons. I had initially hoped that the majority of people on each of these forums would disagree with her. I was disappointed. Most of those commenting in these groups were mad about Affirmation accepting blood money. Could you link where you are getting this impression that those organizations are condemning the acceptance of the money from the Mormon church? I looked on Affirmations web site and saw nothing that expresses what you are implying. And to be clear, are you accusing the organizations themselves or a few individuals within the organization? Because some are very quick to judge these organizations as a whole based on your comments. If it is a few individuals within those organizations rather than the organization themselves, that condemnation would not be justified in my opinion. Edited July 19, 2018 by california boy
HappyJackWagon Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 22 minutes ago, kllindley said: I have absolutely no disagreement with the idea that our LGBT youth need to be embraced and accepted. I think there is a lot of disagreement and a wide variety of views about which forms of acceptance "count." I agree. "Accepted" can mean many things to just as many people. And when/how does acceptance count? The answer to that question will also vary widely. But I think it's reasonable for LGBTQ and allies not to be too thrilled with a donation they likely view as lip service or a PR ploy. If an "whites only" country club made a donation to the NAACP, I don't imagine non-whites would find the gesture all that meaningful. My guess is that LGBTQ & allies view the church's donation similarly. Untill we can have an honest discussion about acceptance, I highly doubt any changes will satisfy folks. Nothing will ever satisfy everyone but that doesn't mean progress can't be made. Does "acceptance" mean love, or toleration, or simply a lack of overt discrimination? What does it look like? I admit that for myself it won't matter how many times I hear the church say that they "love" LGBT brothers and sisters, or how many small donations they make to LGBT causes, as long as their overall stance seems to be anti-lgbt. #11 What are the main differences in how the “good news” of the gospel is being understood? http://www.flirtingwithcuriosity.org/?p=1829 #10 Is the LGBT-religious conservative conversation primarily about whether to love people (or not)? http://www.flirtingwithcuriosity.org/?p=1608
HappyJackWagon Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 15 minutes ago, smac97 said: Okay. I'm sorry, I just want to be clear. There are people affiliated with "Mormons Building Bridges" and "Mama Dragons" who are demanding that the Church change its doctrines to conform to their expectations? Who are upset at the Church's donation of money earmarked to help with suicide prevention? This pretty much obliterates any respect I had for these organizations. The Mama Dragons have proven to be pretty irresponsible, so I had fairly low expectations of them. In contrast, I've admired the public sentiments of the "Mormons Building Bridges" folks. But if they are seriously demanding doctrinal changes and objecting to the Church donating money to suicide prevention efforts, then my estimation of them just took a big dive. Thanks, -Smac Do you have examples of what they are "demanding" regarding "doctrinal changes"? Has the church indicated whether or not it is even willing to accept the possibility that its doctrines and culture could somehow contribute to LGBT suicides or are they adamant all causes are absolutely unrelated to the church? I don't know the answer to that. I think that would make a very big difference in how a donation to LGBT suicide prevention might be viewed. If they essentially say "the church has no responsibility regarding LGBT suicides" but then writes a check, it could easily be viewed as insincere or even patronizing. On the other hand if they said "the church will conduct studies and work with others to determine if there is any kind of link between church doctrines/culture and LGBT suicides" and then donates, then I think the response would be very different.
smac97 Posted July 19, 2018 Author Posted July 19, 2018 14 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: Do you have examples of what they are "demanding" regarding "doctrinal changes"? No. That's why I said "But if they are seriously demanding doctrinal changes..." I'm asking for information. 14 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: Has the church indicated whether or not it is even willing to accept the possibility that its doctrines and culture could somehow contribute to LGBT suicides or are they adamant all causes are absolutely unrelated to the church? Yes, I think the Church has done quite a bit. The Church's message is replete with exhortations for members to be kind and loving. The Church welcomes gays into the Church and encourages them to adhere to the same standards of behavior as apply to all of us. The Church has condemned anti-gay animus. The Church has supported legal anti-discrimination initiatives protecting gays in terms of housing and employment and such. The Church recently donated a substantial sum to Affirmation to assist in suicide prevention. Nevertheless, the Law of Chastity remains in place. I don't think it will substantively change. Elder Christofferson's 2015 remarks are apt: Quote Michael Otterson: So in the last couple of years there’s been a tone from the Church of understanding and acceptance of those people who experience same-sex attraction, and this policy seemed to be rather abrupt. What actually prompted this handbook change? Elder Christofferson: To some degree it came from questions that have surfaced in different parts of the world and the United States. With the Supreme Court’s decision in the United States, there was a need for a distinction to be made between what may be legal and what may be the law of the Church and the law of the Lord and how we respond to that. So it’s a matter of being clear; it’s a matter of understanding right and wrong; it’s a matter of a firm policy that doesn’t allow for question or doubt. We think it’s possible and mandatory, incumbent upon us as disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ, to yield no ground in the matter of love and sympathy and help and brotherhood and serving in doing all we can for anybody; at the same time maintaining the standards He maintained. That was the Savior’s pattern. He always was firm in what was right and wrong. He never excused or winked at sin. He never redefined it. He never changed His mind. It was what it was and is what it is and that’s where we are, but His compassion, of course, was unexcelled and His desire and willingness and proactive efforts to minister, to heal, to bless, to lift and to bring people toward the path that leads to happiness never ceased. That’s where we are. We’re not going to stop that. We’re not going to yield on our efforts to help people find what brings happiness, but we know sin does not. And so we’re going to stand firm there because we don’t want to mislead people. There’s no kindness in misdirecting people and leading them into any misunderstanding about what is true, what is right, what is wrong, what leads to Christ and what leads away from Christ. Yep. 14 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: I don't know the answer to that. I think that would make a very big difference in how a donation to LGBT suicide prevention might be viewed. I know how to answer it. I invite you to read the materials https://mormonandgay.lds.org/. I think you will find it filled with content that is patient and loving and kind. 14 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: If they essentially say "the church has no responsibility regarding LGBT suicides" but then writes a check, it could easily be viewed as insincere or even patronizing. We've talked ad nauseam about whether there is a causal link between the doctrines and practices of the Church and LGBT suicides. I don't think there is (not a proximate one, anyway). There is virtually nothing to substantiate such a link, and quite a bit of competent evidence to suggest that activity in the Church by gay Latter-day Saints reduces the risk of suicide. And yet that doesn't seem to get acknowledged, or it gets ignored outright. That, to me, smacks of being "insincere." 14 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: On the other hand if they said "the church will conduct studies and work with others to determine if there is any kind of link between church doctrines/culture and LGBT suicides" and then donates, then I think the response would be very different. What has the response been? Are there really people in Mormon Building Bridges and Mama Dragons objecting to the Church's donation to Affirmation? Are they demanding doctrinal changes? Thanks, -Smac 1
kllindley Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 2 hours ago, smac97 said: Okay. I'm sorry, I just want to be clear. There are people affiliated with "Mormons Building Bridges" and "Mama Dragons" who are demanding that the Church change its doctrines to conform to their expectations? Who are upset at the Church's donation of money earmarked to help with suicide prevention? This pretty much obliterates any respect I had for these organizations. The Mama Dragons have proven to be pretty irresponsible, so I had fairly low expectations of them. In contrast, I've admired the public sentiments of the "Mormons Building Bridges" folks. But if they are seriously demanding doctrinal changes and objecting to the Church donating money to suicide prevention efforts, then my estimation of them just took a big dive. Thanks, -Smac 1 hour ago, california boy said: Could you link where you are getting this impression that those organizations are condemning the acceptance of the money from the Mormon church? I looked on Affirmations web site and saw nothing that expresses what you are implying. And to be clear, are you accusing the organizations themselves or a few individuals within the organization? Because some are very quick to judge these organizations as a whole based on your comments. If it is a few individuals within those organizations rather than the organization themselves, that condemnation would not be justified in my opinion. I want to be clear that I'm talking about individuals who are commenting on these organizations' official Facebook pages. Affirmation (the organization and leadership) especially has made an effort to remain positive. See the following links: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1807083022713952&id=372528442836091&_ft_=top_level_post_id.1807083022713952%3Atl_objid.1807083022713952%3Athrowback_story_fbid.1807083022713952%3Apage_id.372528442836091%3Apage_insights.{"372528442836091"%3A{"role"%3A1%2C"page_id"%3A372528442836091%2C"post_context"%3A{"story_fbid"%3A1807083022713952%2C"publish_time"%3A1531403691%2C"story_name"%3A"EntStatusCreationStory"%2C"object_fbtype"%3A266}%2C"actor_id"%3A372528442836091%2C"psn"%3A"EntStatusCreationStory"%2C"sl"%3A4%2C"dm"%3A{"isShare"%3A1%2C"originalPostOwnerID"%3A0}%2C"targets"%3A[{"page_id"%3A372528442836091%2C"actor_id"%3A372528442836091%2C"role"%3A1%2C"post_id"%3A1807083022713952%2C"share_id"%3A0}]}}&__tn__=*W-R https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1805351756220412&id=372528442836091&_ft_=top_level_post_id.1805351756220412%3Atl_objid.1805351756220412%3Athrowback_story_fbid.1805351756220412%3Apage_id.372528442836091%3Apage_insights.{"372528442836091"%3A{"role"%3A1%2C"page_id"%3A372528442836091%2C"post_context"%3A{"story_fbid"%3A1805351756220412%2C"publish_time"%3A1531316403%2C"story_name"%3A"EntStatusCreationStory"%2C"object_fbtype"%3A266}%2C"actor_id"%3A372528442836091%2C"psn"%3A"EntStatusCreationStory"%2C"sl"%3A4%2C"dm"%3A{"isShare"%3A1%2C"originalPostOwnerID"%3A0}%2C"targets"%3A[{"page_id"%3A372528442836091%2C"actor_id"%3A372528442836091%2C"role"%3A1%2C"post_id"%3A1805351756220412%2C"share_id"%3A0}]}}&__tn__=*W-R Regarding Mormons Building Bridges: https://m.facebook.com/groups/243098845790984?view=permalink&id=1419660474801476&refid=18&_ft_=qid.6579979810065923815%3Amf_story_key.1419660474801476%3Atop_level_post_id.1419660474801476%3Atl_objid.1419660474801476%3Asrc.22&__tn__=*W-R https://m.facebook.com/groups/243098845790984?view=permalink&id=1428289000605290 Regarding Mama Dragons: Kimberly Anderson has been a primary voice of that group for years. https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10212614653509845&id=1489952868 https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10212643019978989&id=1489952868 1
california boy Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 43 minutes ago, kllindley said: I want to be clear that I'm talking about individuals who are commenting on these organizations' official Facebook pages. Affirmation (the organization and leadership) especially has made an effort to remain positive. See the following links: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1807083022713952&id=372528442836091&_ft_=top_level_post_id.1807083022713952%3Atl_objid.1807083022713952%3Athrowback_story_fbid.1807083022713952%3Apage_id.372528442836091%3Apage_insights.{"372528442836091"%3A{"role"%3A1%2C"page_id"%3A372528442836091%2C"post_context"%3A{"story_fbid"%3A1807083022713952%2C"publish_time"%3A1531403691%2C"story_name"%3A"EntStatusCreationStory"%2C"object_fbtype"%3A266}%2C"actor_id"%3A372528442836091%2C"psn"%3A"EntStatusCreationStory"%2C"sl"%3A4%2C"dm"%3A{"isShare"%3A1%2C"originalPostOwnerID"%3A0}%2C"targets"%3A[{"page_id"%3A372528442836091%2C"actor_id"%3A372528442836091%2C"role"%3A1%2C"post_id"%3A1807083022713952%2C"share_id"%3A0}]}}&__tn__=*W-R https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1805351756220412&id=372528442836091&_ft_=top_level_post_id.1805351756220412%3Atl_objid.1805351756220412%3Athrowback_story_fbid.1805351756220412%3Apage_id.372528442836091%3Apage_insights.{"372528442836091"%3A{"role"%3A1%2C"page_id"%3A372528442836091%2C"post_context"%3A{"story_fbid"%3A1805351756220412%2C"publish_time"%3A1531316403%2C"story_name"%3A"EntStatusCreationStory"%2C"object_fbtype"%3A266}%2C"actor_id"%3A372528442836091%2C"psn"%3A"EntStatusCreationStory"%2C"sl"%3A4%2C"dm"%3A{"isShare"%3A1%2C"originalPostOwnerID"%3A0}%2C"targets"%3A[{"page_id"%3A372528442836091%2C"actor_id"%3A372528442836091%2C"role"%3A1%2C"post_id"%3A1805351756220412%2C"share_id"%3A0}]}}&__tn__=*W-R Regarding Mormons Building Bridges: https://m.facebook.com/groups/243098845790984?view=permalink&id=1419660474801476&refid=18&_ft_=qid.6579979810065923815%3Amf_story_key.1419660474801476%3Atop_level_post_id.1419660474801476%3Atl_objid.1419660474801476%3Asrc.22&__tn__=*W-R https://m.facebook.com/groups/243098845790984?view=permalink&id=1428289000605290 Regarding Mama Dragons: Kimberly Anderson has been a primary voice of that group for years. https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10212614653509845&id=1489952868 https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10212643019978989&id=1489952868 Thanks for the clarification. As with any organization, there are bound to be those that disagree. Anyone who reads more into it than that is IMO not really being fair in judging these organizations harshly. 1
jkwilliams Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 1 hour ago, california boy said: Thanks for the clarification. As with any organization, there are bound to be those that disagree. Anyone who reads more into it than that is IMO not really being fair in judging these organizations harshly. Agreed. A Facebook group is hardly representative of an entire organization.
Calm Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 Quote Research is screaming at us that nearly 75 percent of our queer adults in the LDS Church are experiencing trauma, [specifically] from being taught … their gender identity or sexual attraction is deviant. This uniquely measurable trauma is at levels equal to a formal PTSD [post-traumatic stress disorder] diagnosis. Trauma and suicidal ideation go hand in hand.” I want to see this research.
kllindley Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 14 minutes ago, Calm said: I want to see this research. Right? I am surprised that the journalist would include that quote without citing the research or otherwise commenting on it. 1
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