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Supreme Court's Decision in Colorado "Gay Wedding Cake" Case


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Posted
4 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Since when is a 6-2 ruling "narrow"?

They didn't meet the real question head on. Trendylefty bigotry was the basis, rather than free exercise. Hence, "narrow."

Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Since when is a 6-2 ruling "narrow"?

That same question occurred to me. What’s narrow about it?  5-4 would have been narrow by my reckoning, but not 6-3. 

Is this another instance of CNN showing its liberal bias in reporting?

Edited by Scott Lloyd
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, USU78 said:

They didn't meet the real question head on. Trendylefty bigotry was the basis, rather than free exercise. Hence, "narrow."

I still don’t get it. Please elaborate, USU. 

Edited to add: Is it because the ruling dodged the question of whether photographers and florists can refuse to provide services for same-sex weddings?

Edited by Scott Lloyd
Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Since when is a 6-2 ruling "narrow"?

It was a 7-2 ruling, Sotormayer and Ginsberg where the 2 dissenting votes.

It appears  the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment was the focus of the violation of the bakers rights. Link here

Edited by Anijen
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Danzo said:

A 'broad" ruling would have been "cake decorating is protected speach' or ' cake decorating is not protected speach'. Instead they decided that the Colorado civil rights commission were jerks.

OK. I’m understanding better now. 

I agree they were jerks, but I wish the ruling against them would have been broader. But this may be the best that could be expected from a liberal justice like Kennedy. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
Posted
Quote

Phillips [] was entitled to a neutral and respectful consideration of his claims in all the circumstances of the case.  That consideration was compromised, however, by the Commission’s treatment of Phillips’ case, which showed elements of a clear and impermissible hostility toward the sincere religious beliefs motivating his objection.  As the record shows, some of the commissioners at the Commission’s formal, public hearings endorsed the view that religious beliefs cannot legitimately be carried into the public sphere or commercial domain, disparaged Phillips’ faith as despicable and characterized it as merely rhetorical, and compared his invocation of his sincerely held religious beliefs to defenses of slavery and the Holocaust. No commissioners objected to the comments. Nor were they mentioned in the later state-court ruling or disavowed in the briefs filed here. The comments thus cast doubt on the fairness and impartiality of the Commission’s adjudication of Phillips’ case. 
...
[T]he Commission’s treatment of Phillips’ case violated the State’s duty under the First Amendment not to base laws or regulations on hostility to a religion or religious viewpoint.
...
[T]he record here demonstrates that the Commission’s consideration of Phillips’ case was neither tolerant nor respectful of his religious beliefs. 

Intolerance on the part of the Colorado Civil Rights Commission, all in the name of tolerance :crazy:  

Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Danzo said:

A 'broad" ruling would have been "cake decorating is protected speach' or ' cake decorating is not protected speach'. Instead they decided that the Colorado civil rights commission were jerks.

I would have used different wording, but essentially you are correct. According to how the opinion was written, I would have worded your response this way;

Colorado Civil Rights Commission demonstrated animus towards religion in their decision making.

Edited by Anijen
Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, smac97 said:

It wasn't about the number of justices, I think.  It's more about the legal grounds upon which the decision is based.  Those grounds are, as USU78 notes, "narrow."

The decision is pretty long (59 pages), so it'll take a little bit to digest.  A preliminary skim, however, indicates that SCOTUS found the mistreatment of the baker's religious beliefs to be deeply problematic.  That mistreatment started with the state Civil Rights Commission, which openly and brazenly disparaged those beliefs, which remarks the reviewing state court disregarded:

I am once again grateful for the protections the Constitution provides people like me from . . . people like those on the Colorado "Civil Rights" Commission (and state courts).

Contrast the Commission's treatment of Phillips from subsequent decisions, in which bakers were protected from being compelled to decorate cakes with messages they deemed offensive:

SCOTUS is spot-on here.  The Commission's disparate treatment of the "messaging" in cakes was glaringly partial.

Thanks,

-Smac

I’ve only started to read the ruling. Is there anything in there about the commission’s heavy-handed enforcement? They would have required the baker to give “comprehensive staff training” to his employees and to provide quarterly reports of the same. To me, that carries the stench of despotic rule in which a regime forces people to undergo “re-education” pertaining to party ideology. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
Posted
25 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Since when is a 6-2 ruling "narrow"?

From the case syllabus:

"the Commission’s treatment of Phillips’ case violated the State’s duty under the First Amendment not to base laws or regulations on hostility to a religion or religious viewpoint. The government, consistent with the Constitution’s guarantee of free exercise, cannot impose regulations that are hostile to the religious beliefs of affected citizens and cannot act in a manner that passes judgment upon or presupposes the illegitimacy of religious beliefs and practices. Church of Lukumi Babalu Aye, Inc. v. Hialeah, 508 U. S. 520. Factors relevant to the assessment of governmental neutrality include “the historical background of the decision under challenge, the specific series of events leading to the enactment or official policy in question, and the legislative or administrative history, including contemporaneous statements made by members of the decisionmaking body.” Id., at 540. In view of these factors, the record here demonstrates that the Commission’s consideration of Phillips’ case was neither tolerant nor respectful of his religious beliefs. The Commission gave “every appearance,” id., at 545, of adjudicating his religious objection based on a negative normative “evaluation of the particular justification” for his objection and the religious grounds for it, id., at 537, but government has no role in expressing or even suggesting whether the religious ground for Phillips’ conscience-based objection is legitimate or illegitimate. The inference here is thus that Phillips’ religious objection was not considered with the neutrality required by the Free Exercise Clause. The State’s interest could have been weighed against Phillips’ sincere religious objections in a way consistent with the requisite religious neutrality that must be strictly observed. But the official expressions of hostility to religion in some of the commissioners’ comments were inconsistent with that requirement, and the Commission’s disparate consideration of Phillips’ case compared to the cases of the other bakers suggests the same. Pp. 16–18. 370 P. 3d 272,"

So the court did not rule that the Baker could actually do what he did legally, but that the state did not impartially adjudicate the Baker's rights of freedom of speech and freedom of religious views. In other words if the state had impartially balanced the the Baker's freedom of expression against the civil rights of the gay customer, the Court may not have reversed. I don't know that it is too clear, however, how the state is supposed to make this decision without appearing to make some judgment on the validity of a particular religious belief, so this could be a long-term win for conscientious objectors. If the state just keeps religious language and hostility out of its adjudication process and decision, would that be enough for it to pass constitutional muster? Undecided. Traditionally in the sticky wick of balancing constitutional rights of opposing parties, the Court puts the onus of passing constitutional muster on the state, and will increase its scrutiny of state laws and regulations. Often this involves seemingly "kicking the ball down the road." 

Posted
57 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

But this may be the best that could be expected from a liberal justice like Kennedy. 

Kennedy is hardly a liberal.

Posted
1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I still don’t get it. Please elaborate, USU. 

Edited to add: Is it because the ruling dodged the question of whether photographers and florists can refuse to provide services for same-sex weddings?

The issue is, or should have been, whether one's "free exercise" rights under the First Amendment trump statutory enactments which enthrone anti-discrimination rights.  The Court, as I understand it, merely interpreted the anti-discrimination enactments  ...  a much easier task, since you can always infer discriminatory intent where there either is or could be a discriminatory outcome. 

Easier to beat up on the trendylefty state enforcement wonks than to read the Constitution's plain language:  If they had faced the constitutional question head on, they probably would have had to throw out all of the anti-discrimination laws when they run up against the constitutional free exercise rights of religious folks.  They probably lacked the votes to enforce the actual Constitution's language, as amended.

Posted
1 minute ago, USU78 said:

The issue is, or should have been, whether one's "free exercise" rights under the First Amendment trump statutory enactments which enthrone anti-discrimination rights.  The Court, as I understand it, merely interpreted the anti-discrimination enactments  ...  a much easier task, since you can always infer discriminatory intent where there either is or could be a discriminatory outcome. 

Easier to beat up on the trendylefty state enforcement wonks than to read the Constitution's plain language:  If they had faced the constitutional question head on, they probably would have had to throw out all of the anti-discrimination laws when they run up against the constitutional free exercise rights of religious folks.  They probably lacked the votes to enforce the actual Constitution's language, as amended.

Could they also have just wanted to go with the narrower path (the Commission was plainly out of line) rather than the broader one (litigants and government cannot use Public Accommodation / Anti-Discrimination laws to compel speech abhorrent to the individual's First Amendment rights)?

Thanks,

-Smac

Posted
1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Since when is a 6-2 ruling "narrow"?

The article I read quoted it at 7-2 and I thought the same thing.  How is that narrow?  

Posted
1 minute ago, smac97 said:

Could they also have just wanted to go with the narrower path (the Commission was plainly out of line) rather than the broader one (litigants and government cannot use Public Accommodation / Anti-Discrimination laws to compel speech abhorrent to the individual's First Amendment rights)?

Thanks,

-Smac

Coulda, but plainly couldn't get the votes to, assuming anybody truly cared what the free exercise clause actually says and means.  If you throw out anti-discrimination in this instance when it butts up against the 1st Amendment, how do you differentiate when the case involves a religiously motivated discrimination based upon race?   

Posted
12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The article I read quoted it at 7-2 and I thought the same thing.  How is that narrow?  

I wondered that as well but have now had it explained to my satisfaction: “Narrow” refers to the scope of the ruling, not to the vote count. 

That is to say, the ruling would not disallow an administrative body in a future such case to rule against the baker where the administrative body was less blatantly anti-religious than in this case. 

Posted
27 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I'm not sure.  I only skimmed it.

I just found this nice bit from Justice Gorsuch's concurring opinion (page 27):

He goes on to outline the wildly disparate treatment the bakers in Mr. Jack's case received from the "Civil Rights" Commission ("All three bakers refused Mr. Jack’s request, stating that they found his request offensive to their secular convictions" yet "the Division declined to find a violation, reasoning that the bakers didn’t deny Mr. Jack service because of his religious faith but because the cakes he sought were offensive to their own moral convictions").  Gorsuch sums things up very well:

Yep.  Good luck, "Civil Rights" Commission, in getting past your prior findings which condemned the baker's speech, particularly given your treatment of the Jack case.  Trying to come up with a constitutionally-permissible way to coerce a Christian baker into engaging in compelled speech after having disparaged his religious convictions?  And after having protected other bakeries from being compelled into coerced speech due to their secular convictions?  Yeah, good luck with tat.

I think Phillips has already won.  The Civil Rights Commission really put itself into a bind.  Naked prejudice against a constitutionally-protected class will not fly.  Justice Gorsuch put it well:

SCOTUS is civil in its rhetoric, as it should be, but this is about as close to taking the Commission "to the woodshed" as we can hope to see.

The next question is this: Why did the Commission behave this way?  Why did the Commission's members openly disparage religious beliefs in their deliberations?  They apparently thought they could get away with it.  I think they knew the reviewing state court would have their back (and it turns out they were right about this).  Taking this up to the Supreme Court was apparently too remote a possibility.  And even if they had, I suspect they figured they'd have Hillary Clinton in the White House, with a congruently more hostile-to-religion leaning Supreme Court.

But in the end, Justice Gorsuch was not the determinative player here.  Even Justice Kennedy (!!) couldn't stomach what the Commission did.  I think this demonstrates just how out of touch our hostile-to-religious-belief friends are to basic Constitutional jurisprudence.  

Cool!

-Smac

You say you think Phillips has already won. Isn’t that foregone? 

Posted
19 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You say you think Phillips has already won. Isn’t that foregone? 

Hmm.  Yes, he "won" in that the Colorado Court of Appeals decision was reversed.  However, SCOTUS did not remand the case (that is, it did not send the case back to the lower courts for further action).  I had thought that the case had been remanded.

-Smac

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