changed Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 (edited) Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? New Order Mormons Liberal / progressive Mormons Cultural Mormons Humanist Mormons New Age Mormon Jack Mormon Who am I missing? Is there a good resource outlining all of the different Mormon offshoot groups, who they are, their website etc.? Which groups would be considered "Kosher" by TBM's, and which are considered apostate? Would prevent you from going to the temple if you associated with them? I am not a TBM, there are things I agree with and other things I do not agree with. I would like to remain a cafeteria-style member of the church without causing too much grief to those around me, but would also like to connect with others who would be able to talk through some of my issues more openly, so have been researching some of the other internet communities and groups out there. What I have concerns about: Women's issues: Priesthood, polygamy, nurture vs. provide/protect roles Scripture literalism - for all scriptures, BoM, Bible, Book of Abraham etc. (flood, creation, etc.) LGBT issues, sexuality issues within church (masturbation, etc.) Racial issues (priesthood ban etc.) What I like: Genealogy, family sealing, FHE, family support Personal revelation General Christian values, be kind, serve, charity, forgiveness, repentance etc. Volunteer opportunities and aspects What group best fits me do you think? and would affiliation with the appropriate group get me in trouble if the TBM's in my ward knew about it? Edited May 31, 2018 by changed
Duncan Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 I'm imagining they have in mind polygamist groups, but maybe not. I think though it doesn't have to have anything to do with Mormonism at all, like if you are a member of the KKK or some biker gang that robs old ladies kind of thing. if you are a member of the deal of the day KFC friday lunch club you should be fine
ksfisher Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 4 minutes ago, Duncan said: if you are a member of the deal of the day KFC friday lunch club you should be fine So are you saying you're a KFC Mormon?
changed Posted May 31, 2018 Author Posted May 31, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Duncan said: I'm imagining they have in mind polygamist groups, but maybe not. I think though it doesn't have to have anything to do with Mormonism at all, like if you are a member of the KKK or some biker gang that robs old ladies kind of thing. if you are a member of the deal of the day KFC friday lunch club you should be fine Let's say you are a bishop, and are interviewing me for a temple recommend. If in reply to "Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual - " I replied that I identified myself with the NOM, or Progressive Mormon groups which support some facets of traditional Mormonism, but disagreed with others, would you give me a recommend? I feel like I need to identify myself as something different than just "a Mormon" - so that when I am with LGBT friends, or other more liberal friends, they know I am not a TBM, and would hopefully feel more comfortable talking with me. There are some things that I would like to distance myself from, and make known that I do not agree with - while there are other things that I do agree with and do not mind associating myself with. If someone wants to slap a label on me - I want a better label than "Mormon". If I can find a group that gives me the freedom of being a cafeteria Mormon, I would like to use that to describe myself when others ask me what my beliefs are. Edited May 31, 2018 by changed
Duncan Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 4 minutes ago, ksfisher said: So are you saying you're a KFC Mormon? yup!!!!! my first name start with C and so KFC stands for "Keep Fattening ...." 1
Popular Post ksfisher Posted May 31, 2018 Popular Post Posted May 31, 2018 (edited) 12 hours ago, changed said: Let's say you are a bishop, and are interviewing me for a temple recommend. If in reply to "Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual - " I replied that I identified myself with the NOM, or Progressive Mormon groups which support some facets of traditional Mormonism, but disagreed with others, would you give me a recommend? Yes. None of the groups (using group in the very broadest sense) exist to oppose the church. People who identify with those groups may not believe the same (but then no one believes exactly the same and another person anyway), but they do not seek to destroy the church. Edited June 1, 2018 by ksfisher 5
Danzo Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 As far as I know, non of the labels you mention are formal groups or organizations, just labels so they only mean what you want them to mean. I suppose you can label yourself however you want (Although I don't see why people find it necessary) 4
Jane_Doe Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 (edited) 29 minutes ago, changed said: [1] What group best fits me do you think? [2] and would affiliation with the appropriate group get me in trouble if the TBM's in my ward knew about it? There's a HUGE variety of different things hetrorthodox LDS folks believe / practice, and none of them are things you get a club membership card for. Heck, a lot of the folks in each group mega disagree on things. They "categories" are more very general broad loose labels then a specific "we believe this". I'll actually address question [2] first: [2] These aren't groups you get membership cards for, so not even sure if the TR question would will apply here. As to different members of your ward, they're probably care more about beliefs rather than affiliation. Who cares about what and how much you'll get individual answers from each different person. As to the TR question, that's focused on things like KKK or polygamist groups or stuff like that-- not folks who interpret scripture to be metaphorical. [1] Again, these are super loose categories. If you believe in God at all, you'll likely find some fellowship with Liberal / progressive Mormons folks. Edited May 31, 2018 by Jane_Doe
changed Posted May 31, 2018 Author Posted May 31, 2018 1 minute ago, ksfisher said: Yes. None of the groups (using group in the very broadest sense) exist to oppose the church. People who identify with those groups may not believe the same (but then no one believes exactly the same and another person anyway), but the do not seek to destroy the church. How many bishops do you think would feel comfortable giving me a temple recommend knowing: I disagree with portions of the family proclamation (believe women should help provide/work, believe women are protectors, and that men and women share all roles within the family) Do not believe in literal interpretations of many scriptural accounts such as the creation, the flood etc. I disagree with church's stance on LGBT issues, and moral cleanliness issues (think masturbation is fine) Where is the line that most would draw?
Duncan Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 12 minutes ago, changed said: Let's say you are a bishop, and are interviewing me for a temple recommend. If in reply to "Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual - " I replied that I identified myself with the NOM, or Progressive Mormon groups which support some facets of traditional Mormonism, but disagreed with others, would you give me a recommend? I feel like I need to identify myself as something different than just "a Mormon" - so that when I am with LGBT friends, or other more liberal friends, they know I am not a TBM, and would hopefully feel more comfortable talking with me. There are some things that I would like to distance myself from, and make known that I do not agree with - while there are other things that I do agree with and do not mind associating myself with. If someone wants to slap a label on me - I want a better label than "Mormon". I would be dumbstruck as to what those acronyms stand for!!! I would probably have you explain it but I dunno, i'd be more concerned about your belief if Jesus Christ and the Gospel and if you are willing to work on the other things and you are a decent person in relation to others, I prefer disciple of Christ although that name has so many negative connotations now
changed Posted May 31, 2018 Author Posted May 31, 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Danzo said: I suppose you can label yourself however you want (Although I don't see why people find it necessary) No one wants to label themselves with anything, but labels are part of what humans do - I want to be part of a group - not a hermit, being social is important. I want to be known as someone who is religious because I am - but I do not want all the religious baggage that comes with many labels to be attached to myself. If you say "I am a Mormon" everyone jumps to thoughts of polygamy, racism, backwards-non-scientific etc. etc. things... I want to be religious, without all the crazy connotations that go along with it. What label can you use to let people know you believe in an afterlife, you believe the Holy Spirit is real, that you support prayer and faith in a heavenly family (Father, Mother, Savior)... but that... you do not condemn LGBT folks, you do not support anything that is racist, you do not support oppression of women, you do not believe the scriptures are literal when it comes to the creation etc. that you also support evolution, that you respect other faith and religious groups and beliefs, are agnostic on some things and open to all spiritual experiences - do not hold yourself above others, and enjoy hearing all of the different faith experiences. Some in my family are LDS, others are not - because of my children / husband etc. if I am going to meet with a religious group, meeting with the Mormons is convenient for me - and I do enjoy listening to talks, and contemplating the spiritual aspects of life - think and agree with most of what is shared in most LDs meetings... but I want to keep clear what I am, and what I am not, when people ask me things like "what church do you go to", or what beliefs do you hold? ... I am a professor, and get asked these types of questions... I want to let people know that I think faith-communities are wonderful supportive groups to participate in, but also let people know they can be a member of a faith-group without being trapped by that group, without losing their own personal understandings, without being forced to follow everything that group believes... I think it is healthy to be a member of a religious community, but to be a thoughtful member, a free member, free to think and act and believe what your conscience directs of you. I believe everyone's testimony should be personal - with no middle-man, that it is good to meet together and share ideas with one another, but that it is not healthy to tell anyone what to believe. I think it is possible to meet together without sharing all of the same beliefs as others. Edited May 31, 2018 by changed 1
ksfisher Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 Just now, changed said: I disagree with portions of the family proclamation (believe women should help provide/work, believe women are protectors, and that men and women share all roles within the family) Is there a temple recommend question asking about the family proclamation? No. Just now, changed said: Do not believe in literal interpretations of many scriptural accounts such as the creation, the flood etc. Is there a temple recommend question asking if you believe in a literal flood? No. 1 minute ago, changed said: I disagree with church's stance on LGBT issues, and moral cleanliness issues (think masturbation is fine) Is there a temple recommend question asking about LGBT issues? No. The interview asks if you live the law of chastity, not if you believe if others should or how they should. If you are living the law of chastity you should be fine. If you have questions about how you personally live the law of chastity that would be a good question for you to discuss with your bishop. 3
Jane_Doe Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 7 minutes ago, changed said: How many bishops do you think would feel comfortable giving me a temple recommend knowing: [1] I disagree with portions of the family proclamation (believe women should help provide/work, believe women are protectors, and that men and women share all roles within the family) [2] Do not believe in literal interpretations of many scriptural accounts such as the creation, the flood etc. [3] I disagree with church's stance on LGBT issues, and moral cleanliness issues (think masturbation is fine) Where is the line that most would draw? None of those things are deal breakers. For [1] you'll find many different interpretations and it's not a huge deal. #2 doesn't matter. LGBT you'll find disagreement, but it's not a dealbreaker. Masturbation you'll find different opinions and isn't remotely a deal breaker. 2
Eek! Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 21 minutes ago, changed said: If in reply to "Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual - " Back when I was LDS, I answered "yes" to that question and then explained myself, and had no problems, so apparently I didn't fit the profile of what they were looking for. I'm pretty sure what they're looking for is under-cover polygamist group members. Some polygamist groups have a compelling narrative, judging by what I have seen of their ability to recruit from among seemingly very solid members. 1
changed Posted May 31, 2018 Author Posted May 31, 2018 (edited) 37 minutes ago, ksfisher said: Is there a temple recommend question asking about the family proclamation? No. Is there a temple recommend question asking if you believe in a literal flood? No. Is there a temple recommend question asking about LGBT issues? No. The interview asks if you live the law of chastity, not if you believe if others should or how they should. If you are living the law of chastity you should be fine. If you have questions about how you personally live the law of chastity that would be a good question for you to discuss with your bishop. 32 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: None of those things are deal breakers. For [1] you'll find many different interpretations and it's not a huge deal. #2 doesn't matter. LGBT you'll find disagreement, but it's not a dealbreaker. Masturbation you'll find different opinions and isn't remotely a deal breaker. Thanks for the replies, you are starting to give me a bit more hope. My husband has some "chastity" issues that he does not have a recommend over, has been beating himself up over for quite a few years... if people don't think masturbation is a problem anymore that would be really great. Honestly, I think it is a matter of being self-reliant, controlling your thoughts - you can actually have more pure thoughts, and be less tempted by others around you if you take care of your own needs... Thinking through the questions: 1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost? - absolutely yes. Also, I have a testimony in my Heavenly Mother too, I think She should be included in things like this. 2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer? - yes. 3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days? - I do think Joseph Smith felt the spirit, although I don't know that some things from the early church were spiritually guided... the excitement of discovering spiritual guidance might have made a few people a little overly-excited, perhaps exaggerating or mixing a few things in that were not quite right... I do not believe all things have been restored - I believe there are many things yet to be revealed. 4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church? - I can sustain most of the current church leaders although I would not say I have a testimony of them - I would not follow every last thing they say. I do not know all 8 billion people on the earth, so could not know what other spiritual leaders are living today - I do think there are many noble and great people on the earth, and will find good where-ever it comes from. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things. Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church? I do not know all of the leaders in the church - how can I sustain someone I do not know? 5 Do you live the law of chastity? I do not have sexual relationships with anyone but me and my spouse. We can keep it simple? or delve into what is appropriate within marriage? hehe... 6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church? No one in my family hates me, we all get along pretty well with one another. 7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? I enjoy Mormon Story podcasts and the like, does that condemn me? 8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel? Yes. 9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen? yes. I'm being very honest right now. 10 Are you a full-tithe payer? yes. 11 Do your keep the Word of Wisdom? ... I do take caffeine pills. Is that a problem? and herbal teas... otherwise I'm good? 12 Do you have financial or other oblgations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations? Nope - still on first marriage. 13 If you have previously received your temple endowment: Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple? Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple? I have not been wearing my garments lately... what is the procedure for starting that up again? or is there one? 14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been? Does my current bishop want the list again? I don't know that anything is ever really resolved - there are things you carry with you your entire life, things that keep you humble - so what does resolved mean? 15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances? If G-d does not mind imperfect people coming into his house, then great! If he wants only perfect saints? I'm not really sure what worthy means? I'm trying? I'm trying to be honest? I'm trying to be better? How can I judge what G-d considers worthy or not? am I worthy? what would G-d judge me for? how can I know? Edited May 31, 2018 by changed
smac97 Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 54 minutes ago, changed said: Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? New Order Mormons Liberal / progressive Mormons Cultural Mormons Humanist Mormons New Age Mormon Jack Mormon These are all pretty vague. And they're just labels. You'd have to point to specific examples. For example, supporting, affiliating with and agreeing with Denver Snuffer would very likely be problematic. Merely knowing Denver Snuffer would not. Being on good terms with him would not. Being a good neighbor to him would not. 54 minutes ago, changed said: I am not a TBM, there are things I agree with and other things I do not agree with. I would like to remain a cafeteria-style member of the church without causing too much grief to those around me, but would also like to connect with others who would be able to talk through some of my issues more openly, so have been researching some of the other internet communities and groups out there. What I have concerns about: Women's issues: Priesthood, polygamy, nurture vs. provide/protect roles Plenty of room to discuss these things. Going out of bounds can create difficulties, but it seems you have to go pretty far (see, e.g., Kate Kelly). 54 minutes ago, changed said: Scripture literalism - for all scriptures, BoM, Bible, Book of Abraham etc. (flood, creation, etc.) Plenty of room to discuss this as well. Many parts of the scriptures are plainly intended to be figurative. Some parts use flowery and poetic prose to describe actual events. Plenty of leeway here, I think. I know a few adherents to the "Inspired Fiction" theory of The Book of Mormon. It doesn't work for me, but I welcome them in fellowship. 54 minutes ago, changed said: LGBT issues, sexuality issues within church (masturbation, etc.) I think we are getting better at such things. I also think we have opponents who have a vested interest in exacerbating such issues and keeping them as painful as possible (think of corollaries to race hustlers like Al Sharpton). 54 minutes ago, changed said: Racial issues (priesthood ban etc.) Same here. 54 minutes ago, changed said: What I like: Genealogy, family sealing, FHE, family support Personal revelation General Christian values, be kind, serve, charity, forgiveness, repentance etc. Volunteer opportunities and aspects What group best fits me do you think? and would affiliation with the appropriate group get me in trouble if the TBM's in my ward knew about it? I'm not sure you are describing "groups," but rather "labels." I also think you may want to look for a forum that suits your needs and preferences. I also think you should avoid the temptation to adopt an online alter ego, where you adopt a pseudonym and go online and say things about the Church and its leaders and members and such that you would not feel comfortable saying in real life. The so-called "Online Disinhibition Effect" seems particularly pronounced for Mormons who do that, and it seems to be pretty much always in a negative way. In the end, I guess it depends on how you think of the Church. If you think of it as akin to some sort of political construct or business entity, where you are a voter or a stockholder, and where the leadership is answerable to you, and where you are supposed to publicly criticize and speak against political candidates or business decisions you don't like, then I think you'll end up on the periphery of the Church, and perhaps even out of it. I've seen this pattern many times. Dallin H. Oaks wrote an excellent article about this in 1987. Here's a link. On the other hand, if you approach the Church based on what it claims to be, then that seems much more workable, IMO. The hostile/adversarial elements in the preceding paragraph are hopefully absent, or else replaced with perspectives more comparable to an extended family or tight-knit, we're-all-in-this-together community. That community also houses sacred truths and authority and ordinances that will affect our lives and our families now and after we pass on. Thanks, -Smac 4
changed Posted May 31, 2018 Author Posted May 31, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, smac97 said: In the end, I guess it depends on how you think of the Church. If you think of it as akin to some sort of political construct or business entity, where you are a voter or a stockholder, and where the leadership is answerable to you, and where you are supposed to publicly criticize and speak against political candidates or business decisions you don't like, then I think you'll end up on the periphery of the Church, and perhaps even out of it. I've seen this pattern many times. Dallin H. Oaks wrote an excellent article about this in 1987. Here's a link. On the other hand, if you approach the Church based on what it claims to be, then that seems much more workable, IMO. The hostile/adversarial elements in the preceding paragraph are hopefully absent, or else replaced with perspectives more comparable to an extended family or tight-knit, we're-all-in-this-together community. That community also houses sacred truths and authority and ordinances that will affect our lives and our families now and after we pass on. Thanks, -Smac I think of the church as a place for spiritual community - a place to share goals, stories, ideas, a place to support one another in trying to progress, a place of imperfect people.. what it claims to be? I admit, I have had bad experiences which has changed my view of leaders - does G-d call "Judas" to be an apostle? so after you deal with Judas, what do you think of the other leaders? it becomes more personal I guess, everyone is a different person, and you take people on a case by case basis - do not judge them because they are called to this or that, but take everyone based on just who you have found them to be... so are callings from G-d? I have had leaders tell me they are not guided by the spirit etc. just doing the best they can, and that is fine with me - I think there are some who are guided by the spirit, who may or may not be in leadership positions - from all of this, I'm more convinced G-d is no respecter of persons, that we are all just people, and titles do not mean anything. ... you get some "calling" people do the best they can with it, it is all volunteer work so just be thankful for the work people are willing to do. I'm not sure you are describing "groups," but rather "labels." We are all labeled by what groups we affiliate with, and it is important to define yourself correctly I think... I think it is similar to "nationalist" vs. "patriotic"... I am not a Mormon "nationalist" - better than everyone else etc... I am patriotic - think there are great people in the church etc. Edited May 31, 2018 by changed
ksfisher Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, changed said: If G-d does not mind imperfect people coming into his house, then great! If he wants only perfect saints? If only perfect saints were allowed in the temple then the temples would be empty. 11 hours ago, changed said: I'm not really sure what worthy means? If someone I was interviewing has answered the other interview questions appropriately then I would consider them worthy to enter the temple. The last question, in my mind, helps the interviewee realize that, yes, they are worthy to enter the temple. Sometimes otherwise good people have can have a tendency to be too hard on themselves. 17 Verily, verily, I say unto you, ye are little children, and ye have not as yet understood how great blessings the Father hath in his own hands and prepared for you; 18 And ye cannot bear all things now; nevertheless, be of good cheer, for I will lead you along. The kingdom is yours and the blessings thereof are yours, and the riches of eternity are yours. (D&C 78) Edited June 1, 2018 by ksfisher 3
Jane_Doe Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 You're giving me hope for you too @changed. Much of your post makes me smile. Addressing a few specific points-- 24 minutes ago, changed said: 3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days? - I do think Joseph Smith felt the spirit, although I don't know that some things from the early church were spiritually guided... the excitement of discovering spiritual guidance might have made a few people a little overly-excited, perhaps exaggerating or mixing a few things in that were not quite right... I do not believe all things have been restored - I believe there are many things yet to be revealed. Well that's actually completely alight with orthodox views, particularly with the 9th Article of Faith. You also echo my views here. 24 minutes ago, changed said: I can sustain most of the current church leaders although I would not say I have a testimony of them - I would not follow every last thing they say. I do not know all 8 billion people on the earth, so could not know what other spiritual leaders are living today - I do think there are many noble and great people on the earth, and will find good where-ever it comes from. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things. Your answer here is 100% ok. We LDS don't believe that being a church leader automatically makes every little thing you say/do perfect-- no no, only Christ was/is Perfect. And other peoples/faiths do indeed have the light of Christ and can be guided by God-- that acknowledgement is actually one of the things I like the most about LDS beliefs. And you hit a home run with the AofF reference. 24 minutes ago, changed said: 5 Do you live the law of chastity? I do not have sexual relationships with anyone but me and my spouse. We can keep it simple? That is the actual belief 24 minutes ago, changed said: 7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? I enjoy Mormon Story podcasts and the like, does that condemn me? Haha. Nope. 24 minutes ago, changed said: 11 Do your keep the Word of Wisdom? ... I do take caffeine pills. Is that a problem? and herbal teas... otherwise I'm good? Of course. 24 minutes ago, changed said: 12 Do you have financial or other oblgations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations? Nope - still on first marriage. Well technically you could have had a kid outside of any marriage, what about them? 24 minutes ago, changed said: I have not been wearing my garments lately... what is the procedure for starting that up again? or is there one? Well, you start by opening your dresser drawer .... 24 minutes ago, changed said: 14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been? Does my current bishop want the list again? I don't know that anything is ever really resolved - there are things you carry with you your entire life, things that keep you humble - so what does resolved mean? If you've already talked with your bishop about things, then he probably knows where you're standing on this and probably good. This question could be rephrased "hey are there any big elephants in the room we should talk about but haven't yet?" Is an opening to talk about things if you want/need to. I applaud that you have already chatted about a lot of things with your bishop. 24 minutes ago, changed said: 15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances? If G-d does not mind imperfect people coming into his house, then great! If he wants only perfect saints? I'm not really sure what worthy means? I'm trying? I'm trying to be honest? I'm trying to be better? How can I judge what G-d considers worthy or not? am I worthy? what would G-d judge me for? how can I know? It means that you're trying-- honestly trying and putting one step in front of the other. It by NO way means you're perfect. And yes we sometime suck at measuring those things ourselves, which is why the bishop is there to help and provide a outside view as a servant of God. 2
smac97 Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 13 minutes ago, changed said: I think of the church as a place for spiritual community - a place to share goals, stories, ideas, a place to support one another in trying to progress, a place of imperfect people.. what it claims to be? Yes, it is all of those things. But it's more than that, too. There are all sorts of "places to share goals, stories, ideas," and so on. There are many great organizations, both sectarian and secular. But the LDS Church claims to be the custodian of truths and authority and saving ordinances not found anywhere else. It has exclusivistic truth claims that, if valid, are both ennervating and comforting. Consider these questions in the Temple Recommend interview: Quote 1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost? 2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer? 3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days? 4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church? ... 8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel? ... 15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances? Plenty of people can answer "Yes" to questions 1 and 2. But plenty cannot. Christianity is, as a plurality, the largest religious grouping in the world, but is very fragmented. But question 3 gets quite a bit more specific. More bold. You won't really find it anywhere else outside of the LDS Church. Question 4 also. "Restoration of the gospel in the these the latter days" means a lot to me. "Sustain[ing] the President ... as the Prophet Seer and Revelator ... who possesses ... all priesthood keys" is very important to me. "Striv[ing] to keep the covenants" is important. "Enter[ing] the Lord's house and participat[ing] in temple ordinances" is very important. And I can't find these things anywhere else. 13 minutes ago, changed said: I admit, I have had bad experiences which has changed my view of leaders - does G-d call "Judas" to be an apostle? so after you deal with Judas, what do you think of the other leaders? it becomes more personal I guess, everyone is a different person, and you take people on a case by case basis - do not judge them because they are called to this or that, but take everyone based on just who you have found them to be... so are callings from G-d? I have had leaders tell me they are not guided by the spirit etc. just doing the best they can, and that is fine with me - I think there are some who are guided by the spirit, who may or may not be in leadership positions - from all of this, I'm more convinced G-d is no respecter of persons, that we are all just people, and titles do not mean anything. ... you get some "calling" people do the best they can with it, it is all volunteer work so just be thankful for the work people are willing to do. In a sense, you are correct. "We are all just people." But priesthood authority means something. Revelation means something. Administering saving ordinances means something. The Atonement of Christ. The Plan of Salvation. The prophetic calling of Joseph Smith. The Book of Mormon. Whether these things are true/real/correct, or not, is a big deal for me. Thanks, -Smac 2
rpn Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 1 hour ago, changed said: Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? So far the only ones we know of include polygamist groups, Ordain Women (at least in leadership roles protesting for it on church property), Snufferites, and most recently white nationalists. I'm guessing that anyone who ran an organization seeking same sex temple marriages might run into the same trouble. None of the others cited (and especially those listserv communities (which you cannot really consider a "group") that on their face are intended to help members who are dealing with seeing or feeling things differently than their spouses or families should ever be lumped into the category (and that they are should trouble church members who really believe in the Savior's counsel to BE ONE ---- see tomorrow night's celebration). 2
Danzo Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 22 minutes ago, changed said: No one wants to label themselves with anything, but labels are part of what humans do - I want to be part of a group - not a hermit, being social is important. I want to be known as someone who is religious because I am - but I do not want all the religious baggage that comes with many labels to be attached to myself. I see need to label people as a weakness (part of the natural man) than needs to controlled, rather than embraced. (Kind of like my attraction to chocolate) If you are looking for an appropriate label then I think Christian or Follower of Jesus Christ to be the only label that is really necessary. In my opinion Labels box us in, limit us and prevent us from being able to change ones mind. 1 hour ago, changed said: you do not condemn LGBT folks, you do not support anything that is racist, you do not support oppression of women, you do not believe the scriptures are literal when it comes to the creation etc. that you also support evolution, that you respect other faith and religious groups and beliefs, are agnostic on some things and open to all spiritual experiences - do not hold yourself above others, and enjoy hearing all of the different faith experiences. I think all of these things can be shared by most practicing LDS, certainly non of these positions are directly contrary to the teachings and practices of the church. I know of very few that believe the scriptures are literal in every single aspect. Evolution is a good theory and doesn't really care whether I support it or not. Like all theories it changes as new information is available. Never heard it taught in church to oppress women (there are certainly members who have trouble with this since we are all sinners and have different weaknesses) We are taught to respect other faiths (its one of the articles of faith) We are all agnostic on some things Racism is certianly not supported by the current teachings of the church (look at the ensign for June) We teach the law of chastity but we don't condemn those who don't follow it. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, changed said: Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? New Order Mormons Liberal / progressive Mormons Cultural Mormons Humanist Mormons New Age Mormon Jack Mormon Who am I missing? Is there a good resource outlining all of the different Mormon offshoot groups, who they are, their website etc.? Which groups would be considered "Kosher" by TBM's, and which are considered apostate? Would prevent you from going to the temple if you associated with them? I am not a TBM, there are things I agree with and other things I do not agree with. I would like to remain a cafeteria-style member of the church without causing too much grief to those around me, but would also like to connect with others who would be able to talk through some of my issues more openly, so have been researching some of the other internet communities and groups out there. What I have concerns about: Women's issues: Priesthood, polygamy, nurture vs. provide/protect roles Scripture literalism - for all scriptures, BoM, Bible, Book of Abraham etc. (flood, creation, etc.) LGBT issues, sexuality issues within church (masturbation, etc.) Racial issues (priesthood ban etc.) What I like: Genealogy, family sealing, FHE, family support Personal revelation General Christian values, be kind, serve, charity, forgiveness, repentance etc. Volunteer opportunities and aspects What group best fits me do you think? and would affiliation with the appropriate group get me in trouble if the TBM's in my ward knew about it? Is there any reason you left out of your list apostate groups that engage in polygamy? It is my understanding the addition of that temple recommend question is largely due to them. It could apply to the other categories as well, but I think the main antecedent is the polygamist groups. In answer to your question, I would think engaging in strident or energetic promulgation of views contrary to the established teachings of the Church would and should place one on very shaky ground where a temple recommend is concerned. Incidentally, I understand board rules prohibit any personalization of threads. So if that’s what this is going to be about, I’ll disengage right now. Edited May 31, 2018 by Scott Lloyd
CV75 Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 2 hours ago, changed said: Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? <snip> What group best fits me do you think? and would affiliation with the appropriate group get me in trouble if the TBM's in my ward knew about it? I think you have the liberty to answer this according to the dictates of your conscience--that would be the primary barometer of "trouble" for me. Everything after that becomes negotiable through good-faith behavior and conversation.
Robert F. Smith Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 3 hours ago, changed said: .......................................... New Order Mormons Liberal / progressive Mormons Cultural Mormons Humanist Mormons New Age Mormon Jack Mormon .................................................. Not sure what the definition of each of these generic classifications might be, most of them not organized groups, and not necessarily opposed to the normative LDS faith.
Recommended Posts