JLHPROF Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 (edited) Given the current trend to dismiss the historicity of the Book of Mormon it's easy enough to dismiss these passages as poetry or symbolism. That said there is also a presentist trend today in the Church to view all people from the moment they are born into the world as exactly equal in the eyes of God - a clean slate teaching if you will. I don't agree with that line of thinking doctrinally. It disagrees with too much scripture and relies on an extended application of one lone scripture. Edited May 31, 2018 by JLHPROF 1
stemelbow Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 1 minute ago, JLHPROF said: Given the current trend to dismiss the historicity of the Book of Mormon it's easy enough to dismiss these passages as poetry or symbolism. That said there is also a presentist trend today in the Church to view all people from the moment they are borm into the world as exactly equal in the eyes of God - a clean slate teaching if you will. I don't agree with that line of thinking doctrinally. It disagrees with too much scripture and relies on an extended application of one lone scripture. In your view God is a respecter of persons then? or is it he prefers some groups of people over others?
CV75 Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, cinepro said: If the question is "Is there a way to honestly frame this aspect of the B.O.M in a more positive light that makes more sense than the obvious reading?", the answer is, sadly, "no." Evidently you've missed a good number of posts on this page, posts which also validate the choice of color in the artwork! It is a sad day when when depicting brown-skinned people as brown-skinned implies racism. Even sadder when the implication is purely Pavlovian (which racist interpretations often are as well)! Edited May 31, 2018 by CV75
JLHPROF Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 10 minutes ago, stemelbow said: In your view God is a respecter of persons then? or is it he prefers some groups of people over others? A respecter of obedience to laws, not to personalities. Scriptures speak of groups that are noble and great, of foreordination, of chosen lineages, of preserved lineages, of cursed lineages, and more. I personally believe that our premortal existence dictated many elements of this life. The very existence of Jesus Christ proves that doctrinally. I do not believe we all arrive with the same blank slate. 1
CV75 Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 22 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Given the current trend to dismiss the historicity of the Book of Mormon it's easy enough to dismiss these passages as poetry or symbolism. That said there is also a presentist trend today in the Church to view all people from the moment they are born into the world as exactly equal in the eyes of God - a clean slate teaching if you will. I don't agree with that line of thinking doctrinally. It disagrees with too much scripture and relies on an extended application of one lone scripture. We are all His children with the same work and glory in mind, and that I think is the important thing. "[He] giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." 1
JLHPROF Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 1 minute ago, CV75 said: We are all His children with the same work and glory in mind, and that I think is the important thing. "[He] giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." Agreed. God's work is to give us all eternal life. Blessings beyond that are reserved for those who obey law and become more like Him.
CV75 Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: A respecter of obedience to laws, not to personalities. Scriptures speak of groups that are noble and great, of foreordination, of chosen lineages, of preserved lineages, of cursed lineages, and more. I personally believe that our premortal existence dictated many elements of this life. The very existence of Jesus Christ proves that doctrinally. I do not believe we all arrive with the same blank slate. In the Book of Mormon, the gentiles and heathen are extended the same ultimate promises of salvation as the remnants of Israel on conditions of repentance. The descendants of Laman and Lemuel are promised to receive them from the Gentiles, after prevailing over the lost descendants of Nephi. While God determines the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation according to a plan presented in the pre-mortal world and which addresses our respective roles in this world (and I would argue each one of us is as essential and contributory to the end goal as any other), the aim is to make us equal (joint-) heirs with Christ no matter where we begin. 1
CV75 Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Agreed. God's work is to give us all eternal life. Blessings beyond that are reserved for those who obey law and become more like Him. And this is why He views us all equally (agency, atonement). 1
RevTestament Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 37 minutes ago, stemelbow said: In your view God is a respecter of persons then? or is it he prefers some groups of people over others? This is where I believe the LDS Church has not seen far enough. If God is not a respecter of persons, how come the Jews were His "chosen people?" How come prophets are foreordained? I believe what the Church currently refers to as valiance in the pre-existence are those who received promises, yes, in the preexistence, but on a prior world. By following God on a prior world they became foreordained to certain tasks. So it is not some irrational favoritism which makes certain people foreordained. They followed the law, so got certain promises in eternal lives. But what do I know? I am just a nobody. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 11 hours ago, Rivers said: ....................Is there a way to frame this aspect of the B.O.M. in a more positive light? Here is a short piece I wrote in January 1984, WHITENESS & BLACKNESS IN THE BOOK OF MORMON Why does the parallel of “white and delightsome” ǁ “dark and loathsome” find such expression at Alma 3:4-10, which deals with manners and customs, and intermarriage? Hugh Nibley provided the likeliest range of the full symbolic meaning as ethnic (heredity & culture) in several of his books,[1] while Fawn Brodie did not understand the issue at all.[2] A calm inductive look emphasizes just how wrong some modern assumptions can be: Blackness in the KJV Job 3:5 “Let darkness and the shadow of death stain it, Let a cloud dwell upon it; Let the blackness of the day terrify it.” כמריר Lamentations 5:10 “Our skin was black like an oven,” (from famine) כמר Job 6:16 “which are blackish by reason of the ice, קדר And wherein the snow is hid.” Jeremiah 8:21 “I am black; קדר Astonishment hath taken hold on me.” (cf. Ezk 31:15, 32:7-8, I Ki 18:45) Jeremiah 14:2 “they are black unto the ground.” קדר Isaiah 50:3 “I clothe the heavens with blackness, קדרות And I make sackcloth their covering.” Lamentations 4:8 “Their visage is blacker than a coal;” שחר Joel 2:6 “pained; all faces shall gather blackness.” פארור Nahum 2:10 “the faces of them all gather blackness.” פארור Job 30:30 “My skin is black upon me, שחר And my bones are burned with heat.” Song of Songs 1:5 “I am black, but comely” (cf. 5:11) שחר Song of Songs 1:6 “Look not upon me, because I am black, שחרחרת Because the sun hath looked upon me.” Jude 13 “wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness ζάρος of darkness forever.” Whiteness in the KJV Job 9:30 “If I wash myself with snow water, And make my hands never so clean.” זכך Lamentations 4:7 “Her Nazarites were purer than snow, זכך They were whiter than milk.” צחח Psalm 51:7 “Purge me with hyssop, And I shall be clean: Wash me, And I shall be whiter than snow.” לבן (cf. Daniel 11:35, 12:10) (Psalm 51:2 “Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, And cleanse me from sin.”) Esther 1:6 “white” (first) Hebrew “white linen” = LXX Greek “fine linen” חור “white” (second) Hebrew “mother-of-pearl” = LXX Greek “pearl” (KJV marginal reading “alabaster” דר ) Exodus 20:33 “pure myrrh” (= “myrrh-oil”) דרור The KJV translation is often inadequate, but the parallelisms embedded within even a bad translation can clarify the meaning rather well: Jeremiah 8:21 “For the hurt of the daughter of my people I am hurt; I am black; astonishment hath taken hold on me.” 14:2 “Judah mourneth, and the gates thereof languish; They are black unto the ground.” Joel 2:2 “A day of darkness and of gloominess, A day of clouds and of thick darkness,” 2:6 “Before their face the people shall be much pained: All faces shall gather blackness.” Lamentations 4:7 “Her Nazarites were purer than snow, They were whiter than milk,” * * * * 4:8 “Their visage is blacker than a coal; * * * * Their skin cleaveth to their bones; It is withered, it is become like a stick.” 5:10 “Our skin was black like an oven Because of the terrible famine.” Nahum 2:10 “She is empty, and void, and waste: * * * * And much pain is in the loins, And the faces of them all gather blackness.” The change from “white” to “pure” at II Nephi 30:6 in 1981 has raised some questions, but the change is in accord with the 1840 edition of the Book of Mormon, and the parallel, even synonymous usage of each is clear, not only from the above references, but also from the remainder of the Book of Mormon: II Nephi 5:21-22, Alma 5:21,24,27, 13:12. [1] Nibley, Since Cumorah, 1st ed., 246-251; Nibley, Abraham in Egypt, 1st ed., 216-218; cf. Raphael Patai, The Arab Mind, 86, 91, 101-102. [2] Brodie, No Man Knows My History, 2nd ed., 423-425. 1
clarkgoble Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 50 minutes ago, Rivers said: Historically, Lehi’s party and the Mulekites wouldn’t have been Caucasian right? They wouldn’t have looked like Matthew McCaugnehey. I assume the Lamanites were given a darker tan and the Nephites only looked light in comparison. It's also quite plausible that the skin of blackness is talking about tattoos, war paint or other markings which were common in mesoAmerica. We aren't sure what form the Law took at the time of Lehi (nor what parts the Lehites disagreed with although the centralization of the cult to Jerusalem clearly was one element rejected). However there are condemnations in Leviticus 19 designed to keep the Jews from merging with Canaanite cultic practice. Again if that passage was had by the Nephites it'd make sense how the Nephites would judge Lamanites who adopted more of the practices of indigenous groups - particular in battle. But yeah they wouldn't look norther European in the least with all apologies to those paintings in the Book of Mormon. They'd almost certainly look like contemporary Palestinians or Syrians. One thing I truly wish we could do is move away from the art of the 20th century and portray Nephites as having curly black hair and dark skin, Lamanites as looking more mayan, and perhaps moving away from swords as Roman gladius. We're halfway there with some art but most art from the Church is deeply problematic as those excepts from the Book of Mormon Stories for Children show.
Rivers Posted May 31, 2018 Author Posted May 31, 2018 8 minutes ago, CV75 said: In the Book of Mormon, the gentiles and heathen are extended the same ultimate promises of salvation as the remnants of Israel on conditions of repentance. The descendants of Laman and Lemuel are promised to receive them from the Gentiles, after prevailing over the lost descendants of Nephi. While God determines the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation according to a plan presented in the pre-mortal world and which addresses our respective roles in this world (and I would argue each one of us is as essential and contributory to the end goal as any other), the aim is to make us equal (joint-) heirs with Christ no matter where we begin. This is why I don’t really see racism in The Book of Mormon. Everybody is accepted into the fold of God based on individual righteousness regardless of whether they are Nephite or Lamanite. Racism is the belief that one is inherently inferior or superior based on race. However The Book of Mormon, IMO, does teach that a culture can be inferior to another. 1
JLHPROF Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 (edited) 20 minutes ago, CV75 said: And this is why He views us all equally (agency, atonement). Being viewed equally under the law is not the same as being in the exact same condition. God not being a respecter of persons references his application of gospel laws being equal (not playing favorites). It does not preclude him from favoring (providing more access to blessings) for those who live up to more light. That's why Christ was chosen in premortality, along with others. And some were not. Edited May 31, 2018 by JLHPROF
stemelbow Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 41 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: A respecter of obedience to laws, not to personalities. Scriptures speak of groups that are noble and great, of foreordination, of chosen lineages, of preserved lineages, of cursed lineages, and more. I personally believe that our premortal existence dictated many elements of this life. The very existence of Jesus Christ proves that doctrinally. I do not believe we all arrive with the same blank slate. This makes me wonder if "our premortal existence dictated many elements of this life" does it mean God has known who will lose and who will not. Our fates are already sealed, and it matters little what we do or try to do here? I had decided years ago, even when I was more heavily soaked in the Church, that I was of lesser material because I simply could not buy all the crap from the Church. I was willing to be lesser in eternity because it was who I was and I can only be happy with whatever God gave me (wouldn't be happy with more and wouldn't be happy with less). I wouldn't want more. I suppose there is plenty in Mormonism to see things that way.
mfbukowski Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 12 hours ago, Rivers said: I’ve been reading through the Book of Mormon lately. There’s much to love in the book. It lifts me up and brings me closer to God. But I fail to wrap my head around the parts that talk about people receiving darker skin for wickedness and turning white when they become righteous. I’m familiar with the theory that it’s all metaphorical but I’m not sold on it. I wouldn’t even necessarily call it racist. I just think the whole thing is weird. It’s a big distraction in an otherwise great book. Its like watching a really good movie but having one particular annoying character or bad subplot diminish the experience. Or like walking around in comfortable shoes but with a pebble inside. Is there a way to frame this aspect of the B.O.M. in a more positive light? I think the most clear way to understand it is by substituting the word "bright" instead of "light". We have our moments in which we may give a a bright smile or have a rather dark countenance. Sometimes we do things that are bright and sometimes not. The British use the word "brilliant "often in many many contexts which have nothing to do with color whatsoever or even physical brightness.
JLHPROF Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 Just now, stemelbow said: This makes me wonder if "our premortal existence dictated many elements of this life" does it mean God has known who will lose and who will not. Our fates are already sealed, and it matters little what we do or try to do here? I am not a Calvinist. I don't believe in predestination. And I believe that God's work allows for all mankind to be saved. Work for the dead even allows for those who didn't have access to the gospel during mortality. But I also believe they were chosen to come to earth in that time period for a reason, just as we were for ours. I believe we chose families and lineages. I believe God's prophets were chosen, the heads of dispensations sat in council with the Savior, and that scriptural principles like birthright and heirship are not bestowed by random chance. Christ wasn't chosen just because he happened to be born first. Isaac rules over Ishmael, Jacob rules over Esau, and Ephraim rules over Manasseh. And those aren't accidents of birth but the result of obedience. And I don't believe any of this removes our agency to choose a different path. Quote I had decided years ago, even when I was more heavily soaked in the Church, that I was of lesser material because I simply could not buy all the crap from the Church. I was willing to be lesser in eternity because it was who I was and I can only be happy with whatever God gave me (wouldn't be happy with more and wouldn't be happy with less). I wouldn't want more. I suppose there is plenty in Mormonism to see things that way. That's an entirely different issue. As Joseph reported said to Fanny Murray "you talk very foolishly, you do not know what you will want."
CV75 Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 22 minutes ago, Rivers said: This is why I don’t really see racism in The Book of Mormon. Everybody is accepted into the fold of God based on individual righteousness regardless of whether they are Nephite or Lamanite. Racism is the belief that one is inherently inferior or superior based on race. However The Book of Mormon, IMO, does teach that a culture can be inferior to another. Definitely (an example, where "tradition' might be "culture": Alma 17:9-17). What is better than the Zion culture? :)
CV75 Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 20 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Being viewed equally under the law is not the same as being in the exact same condition. God not being a respecter of persons references his application of gospel laws being equal (not playing favorites). It does not preclude him from favoring (providing more access to blessings) for those who live up to more light. That's why Christ was chosen in premortality, along with others. And some were not. Where our condition and blessings are a function of eternal law (including the Acts 17 reference), then yes, they would be the same. The realization of pre-mortally chosen mortal roles are also conditioned on choices we make in this life (Alma 13:5). God sees us a family as well as individuals that are part of the family according to the desires of our hearts. This is where unequal participation is still a subset of equality.
JLHPROF Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, CV75 said: Where our condition and blessings are a function of eternal law (including the Acts 17 reference), then yes, they would be the same. The realization of pre-mortally chosen mortal roles are also conditioned on choices we make in this life (Alma 13:5). I agree. But it doesn't change the fact that God chooses some and not others which results in his granting favor to some and not others. And he does so perfectly. And he does it based on our choices, both here and in premortality. Scripture has examples of both. Again, we are not all born at the same level of progression or mortal roles. We are not born equal except in how laws/blessings are applied. Edited May 31, 2018 by JLHPROF
mfbukowski Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 28 minutes ago, stemelbow said: This makes me wonder if "our premortal existence dictated many elements of this life" does it mean God has known who will lose and who will not. Our fates are already sealed, and it matters little what we do or try to do here? I had decided years ago, even when I was more heavily soaked in the Church, that I was of lesser material because I simply could not buy all the crap from the Church. I was willing to be lesser in eternity because it was who I was and I can only be happy with whatever God gave me (wouldn't be happy with more and wouldn't be happy with less). I wouldn't want more. I suppose there is plenty in Mormonism to see things that way. Regardless of our abilities our job here is to do the best we possibly can. God is the great chess master and we all come here to play the game. He is the best at chess but we are tried on what we do with our abilities regardless of how great or poor they are. Just as at infinitely great chess player may be able to anticipate our moves with near perfection that does not mean that the great Chessmaster causes us to make the moves we do. I have to give William James the credit for the Chessmaster analogy. The greatest of all chessmasters especially with beginners can actually manipulate the directions the beginner might go and some of the decisions they will inevitably make, yet in all cases the moves are made by the other player, and the decisions are all his. 2
CV75 Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I agree. But it doesn't change the fact that God chooses some and not others which results in his granting favor to some and not others. And he does so perfectly. And he does it based on our choices, both here and in premortality. Scripture has examples of both. Again, we are not all born at the same level of progression or mortal roles. We are not born equal except in how laws/blessings are applied. I guess I'm not seeing the "presentist trend" that we are all born at the same level of progression or mortal roles at a drill-down level.
cinepro Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 56 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: It's also quite plausible that the skin of blackness is talking about tattoos, war paint or other markings which were common in mesoAmerica. So are you saying God came down with a tattoo needle and patiently tattooed them? Because that's a weird idea, to have God forbid tattoos, but then cause tattoos to "come upon them" in order to distinguish them from the Nephites. Quote [21] And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. 2 Nephi 5 I've issued this challenge before, and I'll do it again. If anyone thinks that verse isn't describing an actual, physical change of skin color from "white" to "blackness", please clarify it by re-writing it and removing the metaphors and make it say exactly what you think it is describing. As far as I can tell, there is no recipe for word soup that makes that possible. But I'd like to see someone at least try.
JLHPROF Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 7 minutes ago, CV75 said: I guess I'm not seeing the "presentist trend" that we are all born at the same level of progression or mortal roles at a drill-down level. Try suggesting that someone is closer to God in their progression than someone else (especially groups of people).
CV75 Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: Try suggesting that someone is closer to God in their progression than someone else (especially groups of people). Still not seeing such a presentist trend today in the Church (that everyone on earth is individually and collectively equally moving along the covenant path to eternal life). That said, I'm not sure in what discussion I would venture to say that one person or people is closer to God in progression than others. Certainly the Restoration extends the LDS opportunities to progress, but I think it is Christian practice to refrain from acting as judges of another's or others' progress, especially through comparison.
clarkgoble Posted May 31, 2018 Posted May 31, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Rivers said: This is why I don’t really see racism in The Book of Mormon. Everybody is accepted into the fold of God based on individual righteousness regardless of whether they are Nephite or Lamanite. I confess I don't understand this. There's more to racism than just believing people can be save. It's how you act or speak towards them. 2 hours ago, cinepro said: So are you saying God came down with a tattoo needle and patiently tattooed them? Because that's a weird idea, to have God forbid tattoos, but then cause tattoos to "come upon them" in order to distinguish them from the Nephites. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you already know the response to this. Because that's kind of a silly objection. Typically Jews ascribed to God acts by others or even themselves. This is throughout Isaiah for instance where it's Yahweh who punishes Israel even if it's actually being done by the Assyrians, Babylonians or others proximately. In this example the Lamanites would presumably be manifesting God's will when they choose to wear war paint or tattoo themselves. Or one might even dare say that perhaps the narrators are a little bit untrustworthy in giving a fully objective account of history. Instead they describe it through their own biases. Afterall Mormons have no doctrine like infallibility or inerrancy of the text. The text describes ancient people writing the narratives, peshers sermons and so forth. As such we should expect them to be what they purport to be - biased somewhat ignorant ancient peoples. Further we should expect them to adopt the rhetoric of the mileu they come out of. As Robert's quotations show, at a bear minimum we have metaphors that affect the connotation of how things are seen. That doesn't mean God's word can't come through their weakness as Moroni tells us in Ether 12. But we can't treat them as infallible writers in a way we wouldn't do to Joseph Smith's or Brigham Young's writings. Edited May 31, 2018 by clarkgoble
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