USU78 Posted June 7, 2018 Posted June 7, 2018 8 hours ago, cinepro said: At some point, we need to stop calling them "flaws" and just say he was a terribly cruel and evil person. Presentist nonsense.
USU78 Posted June 7, 2018 Posted June 7, 2018 8 hours ago, clarkgoble said: Those were pretty mighty flaws. Presentism.
Paiute Posted June 7, 2018 Posted June 7, 2018 On 6/2/2018 at 2:31 AM, Robert F. Smith said: This is a pretty good indicator that terms like "white" can't possibly be taken literally in the BofM. That is, since the Manassite and Jewish people in the BofM are dark brown skinned, and the Europeans you refer to are very light-skinned, the disjuncture should be obvious. That is also why "pure" can be exchanged for "white" in the BofM. Most copies of The Book of Mormon published by the LDS Church have a chapter in the book of Alma referred to as "3." It comes before "4" and after "2." It should be taken literally. Remember: "3"
Rajah Manchou Posted June 7, 2018 Posted June 7, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, USU78 said: Presentist nonsense. 1 hour ago, USU78 said: Presentism. There were Christians who traveled alongside Columbus who recognized the atrocities committed. They were present, and knew it was wrong.Bartolomé de las Casas his Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies Its a sort of presentism to think that Christians in the 15th century didn't understand that murder, rape, plunder, and pillage was wrong. Edited June 7, 2018 by Rajah Manchou 4
Paiute Posted June 7, 2018 Posted June 7, 2018 21 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said: There were Christians who traveled alongside Columbus who recognized the atrocities committed. They were present, and still knew it was wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartolom%C3%A9_de_las_Casas Its a sort of presentism to think that Christians in the 15th century didn't understand that murder, rape, plunder, and pillage was wrong. Don't fall for that garbage. I quote: "Bartolome de las Casas, a Spanish priest who advocated for better treatment of the native peoples, is often cited as the source of much of the alleged cruelties of Columbus. The truth is that las Casas was complimentary of Columbus in his Historia de las Indias. “He [Columbus] was a gentle man of great force and spirit, of lofty thoughts and naturally inclined to undertake worthy deeds and signal enterprises; patient and longsuffering, a forgiver of injustices who wished no more than that those who offended him should recognize their errors, and that the delinquents be reconciled to him.” https://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/history/item/21742-why-the-left-hates-columbus
Atheist Mormon Posted June 7, 2018 Posted June 7, 2018 On 5/31/2018 at 2:30 AM, Rivers said: Is there a way to frame this aspect of the B.O.M. in a more positive light? But of course......All you have to do is omit the bad/violent parts of it (like Nephi beheading Laban).
Robert F. Smith Posted June 7, 2018 Posted June 7, 2018 2 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said: There were Christians who traveled alongside Columbus who recognized the atrocities committed. They were present, and knew it was wrong.Bartolomé de las Casas his Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies Its a sort of presentism to think that Christians in the 15th century didn't understand that murder, rape, plunder, and pillage was wrong. Yes, in the midst of the leyenda negra in the Americas, there was at least one civilized human -- de las Casas. The same type of horror took place immediately thereafter in the Philippines. The problem with presentism is that it imagines that we are really and truly different, that it could never happen here, because we know that it is wrong, and so those past peoples must have known that it was wrong also. Yet, if that is so, then why is evil so banal and common under those circumstances? Why is an Adolf Hitler welcomed with such open arms? Why are the executioners so willing and even proud of their work? After all, they took smiling photographs with the corpses of Jews in Germany, and of the lynchings of Black men in America (crowds showed up in their Sunday best). Indeed, the very notion that these people were actually "Christian" can be called into serious question. The facts make it much more likely that humans naturally express their animal nature along predictable lines which any anthropologist or psychologist can easily predict. Homo sapiens tends to be nothing more than a very clever ape. The exceptions prove the rule. See Hannah Arendt, Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil (1963), online at https://vt.instructure.com/files/14967/download?download_frd . 4
Rajah Manchou Posted June 7, 2018 Posted June 7, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, Paiute said: Don't fall for that garbage. I don't fall for garbage. And that article "Why the Left Hates Columbus" is garbage. For example, the author tries to make the argument that Columbus was a great blessing for the natives of America because, (1) "millions of individual souls in the Western hemisphere were exposed to the Christian religion, and (2) "life was improved dramatically by the introduction of new foods such as okra, tomatoes, Indian corn (maize), squash, and more." First of all, Columbus did not introduce Christianity to millions of Native Americans. One of the crimes Columbus was tried for was his unwillingness to baptize the natives, because it was illegal to enslave Christians. Would the Spirit of God be able to work on the heart of a man who preferred to enslave humans rather than baptize them? Would Christian scripture be justified in honoring such a man, because...squash? I don't believe the gentile in Nephi's vision was Columbus. Edited June 7, 2018 by Rajah Manchou 3
USU78 Posted June 7, 2018 Posted June 7, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said: There were Christians who traveled alongside Columbus who recognized the atrocities committed. They were present, and knew it was wrong.Bartolomé de las Casas his Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies Its a sort of presentism to think that Christians in the 15th century didn't understand that murder, rape, plunder, and pillage was wrong. I am insufficiently convinced of my own virtue to judge individuals from another time and place. The lessons of the Book of Mormon and Joshua are lost on too many: by the wicked the wicked are punished. Try not to be the wicked punished or the wicked punisher. Edited June 7, 2018 by USU78 1
Rajah Manchou Posted June 7, 2018 Posted June 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, USU78 said: I am insufficiently convinced of my own virtue to judge individuals from another time and place. Is chronological and geographical relativism a thing?
USU78 Posted June 7, 2018 Posted June 7, 2018 1 minute ago, Rajah Manchou said: Is chronological and geographical relativism a thing? Not particularly, though the dangers of the admiring bog are. 1
Gray Posted June 7, 2018 Posted June 7, 2018 11 hours ago, USU78 said: Presentist nonsense. Get with the program guys. Everyone in the 15th century was sadistically raping and murdering strangers.
USU78 Posted June 7, 2018 Posted June 7, 2018 30 minutes ago, Gray said: Get with the program guys. Everyone in the 15th century was sadistically raping and murdering strangers. Pretty much.
RevTestament Posted June 7, 2018 Posted June 7, 2018 10 hours ago, Paiute said: Don't fall for that garbage. I quote: "Bartolome de las Casas, a Spanish priest who advocated for better treatment of the native peoples, is often cited as the source of much of the alleged cruelties of Columbus. The truth is that las Casas was complimentary of Columbus in his Historia de las Indias. “He [Columbus] was a gentle man of great force and spirit, of lofty thoughts and naturally inclined to undertake worthy deeds and signal enterprises; patient and longsuffering, a forgiver of injustices who wished no more than that those who offended him should recognize their errors, and that the delinquents be reconciled to him.” https://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/history/item/21742-why-the-left-hates-columbus Columbus started that voyage basically for one thing: money. He looked to get rich by being the first to find a new trade route to India. Although he found a gentle people willing to offer whatever they had, when he took whatever gold they had, he took them and sold them into slavery. The natives turned against him, and went to battle against subsequent Spanish explorers. Who was truly gentle, and who was truly the selfish opportunist? I think that is not too difficult for the discerning mind to understand quickly. The subsequent Spanish were all about conquest and obtaining gold. The first English settlers at least tried to maintain good relations with the locals, rather than conquest them and enslave them. I have to agree with Rajah. Columbus was not the man the spirit rested upon. I guess that's bad for the MesoAmerican model though. 2
Rajah Manchou Posted June 7, 2018 Posted June 7, 2018 1 hour ago, RevTestament said: he took them and sold them into slavery. I think key to this is that he denied baptism to them, so he could enslave them. Regardless of era, I don't imagine anyone who turns anybody away from Christ for monetary gain would earn praise in Christian scripture. 2
JLHPROF Posted June 7, 2018 Posted June 7, 2018 2 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said: I think key to this is that he denied baptism to them, so he could enslave them. Regardless of era, I don't imagine anyone who turns anybody away from Christ for monetary gain would earn praise in Christian scripture. You are overstating. The scripture merely says that: 12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land. There is no praise here, no claim relative to his righteousnes, no claim he would bring Christianity or be a good man. It just says God prompted a gentile man to make the trip. There is no reason whatsoever that couldn't be Columbus. It's one verse stating that God's spirit used someone to achieve a purpose. 3
Josh Khinder Posted June 7, 2018 Posted June 7, 2018 The Book of Mormon does teach the Creeds of The 4th and 5th century
cinepro Posted June 7, 2018 Posted June 7, 2018 (edited) 21 hours ago, USU78 said: Presentist nonsense. You say that like it's a bad thing. Of course I'm being "presentist." I live in 2018, and I judge people and events using the best moral judgment I have here in 2018. And I grew up being told that the universe had an eternal moral code that applied across peoples, times and places (and that I should base my moral code on the writings of nomadic sheep herders from 2,000+ years ago), and that "moral relativity" was bad. So why would I do otherwise? But just so I know where you're coming from, what is your understanding of the worst things Columbus did ("worst" from our 2018 point of view)? ETA: Can you explain exactly how a non-presentist (a "pastist"?) would judge Columbus? Are we supposed to judge him based on the morality of his sailor contemporaries who also murdered, brutalized and enslaved the natives? Or should we judge him based on the morals of the natives themselves (since it was their culture in which he committed the atrocities)? I think that makes more sense. So even if I didn't judge him based on the morals of 2018, or the morals of God as taught by the LDS Church, the morals of the culture and peoples of the New World in 1492 were also strongly against being murdered, raped and enslaved, so even at that time he was an evil person. It should also be pointed out that if we're complaining about "presentist" points of view, The Book of Mormon's view could be indicative of a very presentist point of view from the late 1820s, when Washington Irving helped define the Columbus myth with his publication of A History of the Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus. That certainly seems more likely than Nephi being show a vision God inspiring the Gentiles to massacre his descendants. Edited June 7, 2018 by cinepro 3
USU78 Posted June 7, 2018 Posted June 7, 2018 51 minutes ago, cinepro said: You say that like it's a bad thing. Of course I'm being "presentist." I live in 2018, and I judge people and events using the best moral judgment I have here in 2018. And I grew up being told that the universe had an eternal moral code that applied across peoples, times and places (and that I should base my moral code on the writings of nomadic sheep herders from 2,000+ years ago), and that "moral relativity" was bad. So why would I do otherwise? But just so I know where you're coming from, what is your understanding of the worst things Columbus did ("worst" from our 2018 point of view)? It should also be pointed out that if we're complaining about "presentist" points of view, The Book of Mormon's view could be indicative of a very presentist point of view from the late 1820s, when Washington Irving helped define the Columbus myth with his publication of A History of the Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus. That certainly seems more likely than Nephi being show a vision God inspiring the Gentiles to massacre his descendants. I'm not certain what the contours of "our" views fall. And you are aware that Nephi's angel informs the BoM, are you not? Not Irving?
cinepro Posted June 7, 2018 Posted June 7, 2018 3 minutes ago, USU78 said: I'm not certain what the contours of "our" views fall. And you are aware that Nephi's angel informs the BoM, are you not? Not Irving? No, I don't believe that Nephi was shown Columbus and his aftermath in a vision and thought God was inspiring what happened. The idea that God inspired Columbus and the new world "Gentiles" to come over here and "smite" the natives (including murder, brutality, slavery and rape) seems like something someone living in America in the 1820s would think. If reading 1 Nephi is encouraging modern readers to think Columbus and all that followed was God's doing, then that might be a pretty good argument against the book right there. I suspect if any attention is paid to it in the future, the Church will earmark it to be put down the same memory hole that the Priesthood-prohibited Pharaoh in The Book of Abraham got sent down. 3
Rajah Manchou Posted June 8, 2018 Posted June 8, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, JLHPROF said: You are overstating. The scripture merely says that: 12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land. There is no praise here, no claim relative to his righteousnes, no claim he would bring Christianity or be a good man. It just says God prompted a gentile man to make the trip. There is no reason whatsoever that couldn't be Columbus. It's one verse stating that God's spirit used someone to achieve a purpose. If there is no praise for Columbus in 1 Nephi, then it feels like we've been overstating his role in the restoration for a very long time. But my reasons for believing Columbus was not the gentile in Nephi's vision are more related to: (1) Columbus being a captor not a captive, the gentiles Nephi saw in vision were in captivity. (2) Nephi said the gentiles he saw in vision were white like the Nephites. If the Nephites were Semites, this wouldn't be a likely comparison. Edited June 8, 2018 by Rajah Manchou 2
mfbukowski Posted June 8, 2018 Posted June 8, 2018 12 hours ago, USU78 said: Pretty much. Dang I always wondered why I missed all the fun!
USU78 Posted June 8, 2018 Posted June 8, 2018 3 hours ago, cinepro said: No, I don't believe that Nephi was shown Columbus and his aftermath in a vision and thought God was inspiring what happened. The idea that God inspired Columbus and the new world "Gentiles" to come over here and "smite" the natives (including murder, brutality, slavery and rape) seems like something someone living in America in the 1820s would think. If reading 1 Nephi is encouraging modern readers to think Columbus and all that followed was God's doing, then that might be a pretty good argument against the book right there. I suspect if any attention is paid to it in the future, the Church will earmark it to be put down the same memory hole that the Priesthood-prohibited Pharaoh in The Book of Abraham got sent down. Quite the fundamentalist, nonpoetic read you've got there. Just because ancient people impute everything that happens to G-d doesn't mean we need to. Just because G-d predicts that a devout for his time and place man will take certain steps as wrought upon doesn't mean that everything the guy did or didn't do was inspired or moral from G-d's POV. We are in no position to judge any individuals. Movements and political or economic developments, absolutely. Not individuals. For all we know none of us is worthy to carry Columbus' jockstrap, morally or ethically speaking. 2
JLHPROF Posted June 8, 2018 Posted June 8, 2018 5 hours ago, Josh Khinder said: The Book of Mormon does teach the Creeds of The 4th and 5th century No the creeds of the 4th and 5th century just misinterpret the same Biblical principles as are found in the Book of Mormon.
RevTestament Posted June 8, 2018 Posted June 8, 2018 6 hours ago, Josh Khinder said: The Book of Mormon does teach the Creeds of The 4th and 5th century I would invite you to show how, but I think that would be derailing the thread. You could start a new thread, and I would be happy to show the ways the Book of Mormon does not teach the creeds. Saying the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one God is really the only semblance. That can easily be scriptural addressed since the plural word Elohim can incorporate all three - which is actually further than the Bible goes without the Johanine Coma. I read the word Elohim as "the family of immovable power/force." However, in a few places the Hebrew also refers to Elim, which is a true plural ie it is not used singularly. It's the real challenge to the doctrine of the trinity. Moreso than the Book of Mormon, it's the Bible which destroys these creeds doctrinally - although the Book of Mormon has a surprise in store.
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