Different Degrees of Glory.

[changed]

 

Some believe getting sealed in the temple will allow them to be with their family for eternity... for me, the temple has torn my family apart.  

Is it ok to strive to be a guardian angel rather than... ↑↑↑?   The imperfect people I know and love are all imperfect guardian angels (not temple-recommend carrying saints)...  It is just a small little flock up there, and I would be kidding myself to think I was strong enough for all of that.  The kinds of tests that are dished out on this earth, I would never do that to anyone.  I hate all of the divisions and hierarchies on earth - heaven is going to be divided too? I just don't understand how anyone could ever be happy or strive for a "heavenly" hierarchy?  It just does not sound like heaven to me... 

I know everyone is going to jump on the free-will bandwagon, but I don't know anyone who is not interested in being loved and giving love - in a perfect educational system everyone could be taught to attain the same level of joy - to me it is not about free will, it is about providing correct educational experiences to everyone.  

thoughts? comments?  

I do not have a temple recommend over this.  I do not have a testimony that this system brings joy to everyone, or that this system binds families together.  

Edited May 28, 2018 by changed

[Exiled]

8 minutes ago, changed said:

 

Some believe getting sealed in the temple will allow them to be with their family for eternity... for me, the temple has torn my family apart.  

Is it ok to strive to be a guardian angel rather than... ↑↑↑?   The imperfect people I know and love are all imperfect guardian angels (not temple-recommend carrying saints)...  It is just a small little flock up there, and I would be kidding myself to think I was strong enough for all of that.  The kinds of tests that are dished out on this earth, I would never do that to anyone.  I hate all of the divisions and hierarchies on earth - heaven is going to be divided too? I just don't understand how anyone could ever be happy or strive for a "heavenly" hierarchy?  It just does not sound like heaven to me... 

I know everyone is going to jump on the free-will bandwagon, but I don't know anyone who is not interested in being loved and giving love - in a perfect educational system everyone could be taught to attain the same level of joy - to me it is not about free will, it is about providing correct educational experiences to everyone.  

thoughts? comments?  

I do not have a temple recommend over this.  I do not have a testimony that this system brings joy to everyone, or that this system binds families together.  

To me, it didn't make much sense having the entire family together in the first place.  Kids grow up, leave the nest and go out on their own with their own families.  Maybe together forever means having celestial holidays together?  I wonder if at celestial thanksgiving, there will be fights over celestial kingdom elections like there were re Trump v. Clinton?  I hear there is a contentious election going on right now up there over the LGTB issue.  Some are for letting them into the celestial kingdom (they point to spiritual biology and fairness) and some are against as it being a violation of tradition and what Elohim intended.  Although there is some speculation as to what Elohim really meant.  He has a hard time communicating his word up there as he does down here at times.

[Jeanne]

21 minutes ago, changed said:

 

Some believe getting sealed in the temple will allow them to be with their family for eternity... for me, the temple has torn my family apart.  

Is it ok to strive to be a guardian angel rather than... ↑↑↑?   The imperfect people I know and love are all imperfect guardian angels (not temple-recommend carrying saints)...  It is just a small little flock up there, and I would be kidding myself to think I was strong enough for all of that.  The kinds of tests that are dished out on this earth, I would never do that to anyone.  I hate all of the divisions and hierarchies on earth - heaven is going to be divided too? I just don't understand how anyone could ever be happy or strive for a "heavenly" hierarchy?  It just does not sound like heaven to me... 

I know everyone is going to jump on the free-will bandwagon, but I don't know anyone who is not interested in being loved and giving love - in a perfect educational system everyone could be taught to attain the same level of joy - to me it is not about free will, it is about providing correct educational experiences to everyone.  

thoughts? comments?  

I do not have a temple recommend over this.  I do not have a testimony that this system brings joy to everyone, or that this system binds families together.  

Oh my gosh...what the Temple did to my family is unbelieveable....I hear you!!!

[Eek!]

35 minutes ago, changed said:

I hate all of the divisions and hierarchies on earth - heaven is going to be divided too? I just don't understand how anyone could ever be happy or strive for a "heavenly" hierarchy?  It just does not sound like heaven to me... 

I cannot imagine a bunch of happy people milling around sipping decaffeinated beverages in the highest degree of the Celestial kingdom while so many of their loved ones are forever separated from them.   Nor can I imagine God contemplating all of His children who didn't make it and consoling Himself with, "well, at least they had their free agency".  That consolation doesn't work here and it won't work there. 

Yet I also believe that what we have been told about levels - divisions and hierarchies, if you will - is largely correct. 

How to reconcile these two? 

All levels, all divisions, and all hierarchies among us are only temporary.  "Eternal progression" really is the name of the game, but it's going to take a very long time, and not everyone progresses at the same speed.  But in the long run, Heaven isn't Heaven unless we're all there. 

I think the Good Shepherd never gives up on his lost sheep, not in this world, not in any other. 

I think Christ's work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, and that includes every single one of us.

I believe the works and the designs and the purposes of God cannot be frustrated, neither can they come to naught.  So I don't think Christ will fail.

But I also believe it's gonna take a while. 

Edited May 28, 2018 by Eek!

[changed]

9 minutes ago, Exiled said:

To me, it didn't make much sense having the entire family together in the first place.  Kids grow up, leave the nest and go out on their own with their own families.  Maybe together forever means having celestial holidays together?  I wonder if at celestial thanksgiving, there will be fights over celestial kingdom elections like there were re Trump v. Clinton?  I hear there is a contentious election going on right now up there over the LGTB issue.  Some are for letting them into the celestial kingdom (they point to spiritual biology and fairness) and some are against as it being a violation of tradition and what Elohim intended.  Although there is some speculation as to what Elohim really meant.  He has a hard time communicating his word up there as he does down here at times.

 

Communication... It all started with the tower of babble - all the divisions...  so people are not correctly educated, things are not explained well, and this is the test?  Does not seem fair or just to test anyone over something they have not been properly educated with.  

Small groups vs. large groups, patriotism vs. nationalism - there is value in small groups, so long as the smaller groups do not hold themselves above others.  

Diversity is a good thing... united in one heart and one mind - I understand the beauty in seeing one another face to face, know as you are known, but to be carbon copies of one another?  we can't like different flavors of ice cream?  

 

3 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Oh my gosh...what the Temple did to my family is unbelieveable....I hear you!!!

     it is like converts have to choose between G-d and their own family   

[changed]

5 minutes ago, Eek! said:

All levels, all divisions, and all hierarchies among us in the next life are only temporary.  "Eternal progression" is going to take a very long time, and not everyone progresses at the same speed.  But in the long run, Heaven isn't Heaven unless we're all there. 

 

Thank you for that - how many Mormons believe this?  vs. eternal separation?  

[Jeanne]

5 minutes ago, changed said:

 

Thank you for that - how many Mormons believe this?  vs. eternal separation?  

Really good question..in mortality we are not so accepted...what would change a mormon's mind even in complete conversion?  Sometimes I feel like I will always be ...less than.  My heaven will be with people like me..who love me. 

[Exiled]

5 minutes ago, changed said:

 

Communication... It all started with the tower of babble - all the divisions...  so people are not correctly educated, things are not explained well, and this is the test?  Does not seem fair or just to test anyone over something they have not been properly educated with.  

Small groups vs. large groups, patriotism vs. nationalism - there is value in small groups, so long as the smaller groups do not hold themselves above others.  

Diversity is a good thing... united in one heart and one mind - I understand the beauty in seeing one another face to face, know as you are known, but to be carbon copies of one another?  we can't like different flavors of ice cream?  

 

I think the church covers this issue with the baptism for the dead idea.  There is a second chance for a proper education in the future worlds if one isn't obtained here.  However, I agree that it doesn't make sense and that it would be a lot easier if God just appeared to masses of people at a time so there wasn't any confusion as to what we are supposed to do.  It would be a lot easier still if God wrote down his words himself instead of playing a telephone game with his prophets, and stop already with the communication through feelings.  Feelings are so subject to error and confusion that it makes a rather poor way to communicate.  It seems to be why there is so much confusion over religion.

[Duncan]

it's not the Temple that divides you anymore than going to see your Dr. makes one sick, as in you were sick prior to coming to the Dr.

Feelings confirm the truth as in you "studied it out" in the first place, you asked God after you read the Book of Mormon, let's say, if this is not true (which is a decision you made) and he then confirmed or not your conclusion. Everyone knows you can go too far with feelings, you can get caught up in a moment and make unrational decisions and on the other other anything talked into can be talked out of. You need balance

Edited May 28, 2018 by Duncan

[Jane_Doe]

There is no caste system in heaven.  And I say that as an orthodox LDS person.   Neither is there one-size-fit-all identicalness.  

What you should strive for: to be the best follower of Christ you can be.  Same with me and every other person.  We don't understand what it is to live forever, let alone glories.  There's no point in worrying about it or staying away from Christ because you don't understand it.  Instead, welcome Him into your life and follow the best you can.  Let Him worry about judgements and glories.  

[Josh Khinder]

2 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

There is no caste system in heaven.  And I say that as an orthodox LDS person.   Neither is there one-size-fit-all identicalness.  

What you should strive for: to be the best follower of Christ you can be.  Same with me and every other person.  We don't understand what it is to live forever, let alone glories.  There's no point in worrying about it or staying away from Christ because you don't understand it.  Instead, welcome Him into your life and follow the best you can.  Let Him worry about judgements and glories.  

Mark E Peterson  taught a caste system in heaven : 

"Let us consider the great mercy of God for a moment. a Chinese, born in China with a dark skin, and with all the handicaps of that race seems to have little opportunity. but think of the mercy of god to Chinese people who are willing to accept the gospel. In spite of whatever they might have done in the pre-existence to justify being born over there as Chinamen, if they now, in this life, accept the gospel and live it the rest of their lives they can have the Priesthood, go to the temple and receive endowments and sealings, and that means they can have exaltation. Isn't the mercy of God marvelous?

 

Think of the Negro, cursed as to the priesthood... This Negro, who in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending him to the earth in the lineage of Cain with a black skin, and possibly being born in darkest Africa--if that Negro is willing when he hears the gospel to accept it, he may have many of the blessings of the gospel. In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincerer faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessing of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory. (Race Problems--As They Affect The Church, An address by Mark E. Petersen at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College level; Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954.)

 

Edited May 28, 2018 by Josh Khinder
not complete

[Calm]

The idea that we can know what heaven will be like after trillions of years by looking at what our behaviour and relationships are like in the here and now is what never has made sense to me.

If God is willing to work with us as long as we need (and scriptures suggest this imo) and that includes helping us alter any qualities we desire to change through the Atonement, the only reason anyone would be limited in anything imo is personal choice.

I see no reason to assume anyone in the here and now will not be able to be exalted if they so desire the blessings that come from such.  I see no reason to assume what family means here is what family means there.  We use "family" to describe the relationships imo because they are the most lasting loving relationships we generally see, but the commitment and caring and love perfected beings with all eternity to work with...that expression is way beyond our comprehension at the moment.

So why saddle ourselves with judgments based on mortal limitations?

[Eek!]

2 hours ago, changed said:

Thank you for that - how many Mormons believe this?  vs. eternal separation?  

I would guess that most if not virtually all Mormons believe in eternal separation, but Mormonism also teaches some amazing concepts whose implications don't make it into the Sunday School manual. 

For instance, Joseph Smith taught that we without our dead (deceased family members) cannot be saved, and Mormonism teaches that we are all part of the same family.   Factor in eternal progression and imo the dots pretty much connect themselves.   

[Calm]

8 hours ago, Eek! said:

I would guess that most if not virtually all Mormons believe in eternal separation, but Mormonism also teaches some amazing concepts whose implications don't make it into the Sunday School manual. 

For instance, Joseph Smith taught that we without our dead (deceased family members) cannot be saved, and Mormonism teaches that we are all part of the same family.   Factor in eternal progression and imo the dots pretty much connect themselves.   

Also sealings create a web of relationships, not clumps, so it looks to me that we are all sealed together in one family rather than endless numbers of families.  We have each our individual sealing directly to God since God is a participant in each sealing (plus his direct involvement in all the other covenants we make binding ourselves to him).  Then we have all the 'vertical through time' sealings of parent to child that will extend to the last child born ever back to Adam and Eve (or whoever they stand for) and likely beyond them since they too had parents.  Add in all the 'horizontal through time' sealings of husband and wife that link diverse family lines together into one lineage...No one needs be set apart alone unless they chose to be.  And then there is the binding of the individual into the Kingdom of God through baptism...if "Kingdom" is shorthand for God's form of eternal family, again another covenant tying us to everyone else who chooses to live with God and others with all their heart.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Calm

[Eek!]

24 minutes ago, Calm said:

The idea that we can know what heaven will be like after trillions of years by looking at what our behaviour and relationships are like in the here and now is what never has made sense to me.

If God is willing to work with us as long as we need (and scriptures suggest this imo) and that includes helping us alter any qualities we desire to change through the Atonement, the only reason anyone would be limited in anything imo is personal choice.

I see no reason to assume anyone in the here and now will not be able to be exalted if they so desire the blessings that come from such.  I see no reason to assume what family means here is what family means there.  We use "family" to describe the relationships imo because they are the most lasting loving relationships we generally see, but the commitment and caring and love perfected beings with all eternity to work with...that expression is way beyond our comprehension at the moment.

So why saddle ourselves with judgments based on mortal limitations?

You think big thoughts Sister... and yet you remain... Calm. 

Can't help but remember something you referred to previously.  From the words Brigham Young said were spoken to him by Joseph Smith on February 23, 1847: 

“Tell the people to be humble and faithful, and be sure to keep the spirit of the Lord and it will lead them right. Be careful and not turn away the small still voice; it will teach you what to do and where to go; it will yield the fruits of the kingdom. Tell the brethren to keep their hearts open to conviction, so that when the Holy Ghost comes to them, their hearts will be ready to receive it. They can tell the Spirit of the Lord from all other spirits; it will whisper peace and joy to their souls; it will take malice, hatred, strife and all evil from their hearts; and their whole desire will be to do good, bring forth righteousness and build up the kingdom of God. Tell the brethren if they will follow the spirit of the Lord they will go right. Be sure to tell the people to keep the Spirit of the Lord; and if they will, they will find themselves just as they were organized by our Father in Heaven before they came into the world. Our Father in Heaven organized the human family, but they are all disorganized and in great confusion.”

Joseph then showed me the pattern, how they were in the beginning. This I cannot describe, but I saw it, and saw where the Priesthood had been taken from the earth and how it must be joined together, so that there would be a perfect chain from Father Adam to his latest posterity. Joseph again said, “Tell the people to be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord and follow it, and it will lead them just right.” [emphasis Eek!'s]

Out of those ten sentences, seven of them say virtually the same thing:  Follow the Spirit of the Lord and it will lead you just right.  The other three sentences talk about the pattern, and imo the implication is, the way to find out what the pattern is, is to follow the Spirit of the Lord and to go where it leads. 

[Calm]

I have been looking for that quote, for some reason I just couldn't pull it up in a search.  Thank you for posting it.  Now I just need to put it somewhere Safe so I don't lose it again.

[Eek!]

48 minutes ago, Calm said:

Also sealings create a web of relationships, not clumps, so it looks to me that we are all sealed together in one family rather than endless numbers of family... [emphasis Eek!'s]

Yes!  It's a web!!

Now we also have this teaching, from Section 132:  "The Lord's house is a house of order."  But it's a natural order, not an imposed one, see verses 8 through 11.  The context was, Joseph Smith being taught that only those unions which were appointed unto him before the world was would acceptable to God.   So these are re-unions, returns to the original, natural order (imo that's why even temple marriages are not eternal unless they are ratified by the Holy Spirit of Promise - if it's not an authentic re-union, the Spirit knows, so it doesn't get ratified).  And it is my understanding that Joseph had himself sealed to men as well as to women, presumably all in keeping with this same principle. 

If God is good and God is fair and God is no respecter of persons, and if there is such thing as eternal progression, then perhaps Joseph Smith was just that much further along than the rest of us, so perhaps our paths will be in some ways like his.  Perhaps we too are each a big part of a big web. 

I don't know if the pattern Joseph showed to Brigham was necessarily a web, but that's the closest I can come to conceptualizing it at this point. 

Edited May 28, 2018 by Eek!

[Eek!]

20 minutes ago, Calm said:

I have been looking for that quote, for some reason I just couldn't pull it up in a search.  Thank you for posting it.  Now I just need to put it somewhere Safe so I don't lose it again.

I found it here:  https://lodeplus.com/the-dreams-of-brigham-young/ ; scroll down to February 23, 1847. 

[CV75]

4 hours ago, changed said:

I do not have a temple recommend over this.  I do not have a testimony that this system brings joy to everyone, or that this system binds families together.  

Which question are you unable to answer so as to have a recommend?

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, Eek! said:

Yes!  It's a web!!

Now we also have this teaching:  "The Lord's house is a house of order."  This comes from Section 132, verses 8 through 11.  The context was, Joseph Smith being taught that only those unions which were appointed unto him before the world was would acceptable to God.   So these are re-unions, a return to the original, natural order (imo that's why temple marriages have to be ratified by the Holy Spirit of Promise - if it's not an authentic re-union, it doesn't get ratified).  And it is my understanding that Joseph had himself sealed to men as well as to women, presumably all in keeping with this same principle. 

If God is good and God is fair and God is no respecter of persons, and if there is such thing as eternal progression, then perhaps Joseph Smith was just that much further along than the rest of us, so perhaps our paths will be in some ways like his.  Perhaps we too are each a big part of a big web. 

I don't know if the pattern Joseph showed to Brigham was necessarily a web, but I think that's the closest I can come to conceptualizing it at this point. 

A web barely begins to come close, imo.  It is more like each person is the center of a sphere of relationships, so that if one tries to picture all the links, it is a solid mass...but I think it becomes more than that because as we become truly one, every member of God's family moves into intimate relationship with every other, so our "spheres" include every other covenant being.

[strappinglad]

As much as we might want it to be different, I believe that God's " house of order " implies organization which implies rank or hierarchy . Abraham tells of there being various levels of intelligence and God being the most intelligent of them all. The D&C suggests that intelligence or light and truth can be gained. It doesn't say everyone will/must gain it. That is one of the battles we currently fight here and now. Equality of opportunity vs. equality of outcome  . The battle is as old as the war in Heaven.

[Eek!]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

A web barely begins to come close, imo.  It is more like each person is the center of a sphere of relationships, so that if one tries to picture all the links, it is a solid mass...but I think it becomes more than that because as we become truly one, every member of God's family moves into intimate relationship with every other, so our "spheres" include every other covenant being. [emphasis Eek!'s]

I don't really expect you to tell me, but can't help wondering how you came to that conclusion.

Anyway, I agree with you.   Solid mass, or even better truly oneness, with each person the center of the sphere, and each person in intimate relationship with every other, is a vastly better description than "big web", which implies "closer to some than to others".   Like a superbrain whose superneurons have so many axons and dentrites that each superneuron directly connects to every other superneuron.   Or maybe like a field in which distance and time do not exist (see D&C 130:6-11).  Imo the web metaphor illustrates an aspect of the re-union event, which in its mature condition is that oneness.  I think that at some point there will be no degrees of separation between any of us, and "we" will no longer be in the kingdom of man, but will be in the next one up.  And I can see how Brigham could have had trouble describing that. 

[Storm Rider]

17 hours ago, changed said:

Some believe getting sealed in the temple will allow them to be with their family for eternity... for me, the temple has torn my family apart.  

Is it ok to strive to be a guardian angel rather than... ↑↑↑?   The imperfect people I know and love are all imperfect guardian angels (not temple-recommend carrying saints)...  It is just a small little flock up there, and I would be kidding myself to think I was strong enough for all of that.  The kinds of tests that are dished out on this earth, I would never do that to anyone.  I hate all of the divisions and hierarchies on earth - heaven is going to be divided too? I just don't understand how anyone could ever be happy or strive for a "heavenly" hierarchy?  It just does not sound like heaven to me... 

I know everyone is going to jump on the free-will bandwagon, but I don't know anyone who is not interested in being loved and giving love - in a perfect educational system everyone could be taught to attain the same level of joy - to me it is not about free will, it is about providing correct educational experiences to everyone.  

thoughts? comments?  

I do not have a temple recommend over this.  I do not have a testimony that this system brings joy to everyone, or that this system binds families together.  

 

 

I suspect that this has been poorly explained and/or poorly understood. Every individual will be judged and everyone will find their reward and know it is theirs.  I also believe there will be a high degree of happiness for the vast majority of individuals.  Each will know that they are a child of God and each will naturally gravitate to their state of glory.  Will some go to a different mansion?  Of course, but we will not be concerned about their mansion because we will be focused on our own.  

There will be those that will be sorrowful because they will recognize that they wasted countless opportunities to have drawn closer to God and to have emulated him.  These are they that will have held tightly to their own will and their own desires and put God's will and God's desires behind them.  They will see what they have forfeited for their own temporal pleasures. 

As far as what we will do after this life - please try and remember that we see through a glass darkly here.  We have some ideas, but even those present far more questions than answers.  Suffice it to say that God is in control and we will know, not have faith, that he is God.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Storm Rider

[Garden Girl]

4 hours ago, changed said:

 

Some believe getting sealed in the temple will allow them to be with their family for eternity... for me, the temple has torn my family apart.  

Is it ok to strive to be a guardian angel rather than... ↑↑↑?   The imperfect people I know and love are all imperfect guardian angels (not temple-recommend carrying saints)...  It is just a small little flock up there, and I would be kidding myself to think I was strong enough for all of that.  The kinds of tests that are dished out on this earth, I would never do that to anyone.  I hate all of the divisions and hierarchies on earth - heaven is going to be divided too? I just don't understand how anyone could ever be happy or strive for a "heavenly" hierarchy?  It just does not sound like heaven to me... 

I know everyone is going to jump on the free-will bandwagon, but I don't know anyone who is not interested in being loved and giving love - in a perfect educational system everyone could be taught to attain the same level of joy - to me it is not about free will, it is about providing correct educational experiences to everyone.  

thoughts? comments?  

I do not have a temple recommend over this.  I do not have a testimony that this system brings joy to everyone, or that this system binds families together.  

Hello Changed... 

I'm sorry you feel the temple has "torn" your family apart... your post shows a lack of understanding of "heavenly divisions" and/or "hierarchies."  I believe you, and possibly some of your family members, need to do some serious studying and pondering of the scriptures as well as writings of our leaders on these topics.  And I'm sorry, but I believe it really is about "free will" and how much and how widely a person is willing to invest in studying to try and gain understanding and/or a testimony.  There's ample opportunity to obtain "correct education experiences."

First, there is not one thing in "Heaven" that will not be orderly and joyful... The Lord's house is a house of "order" and I truly believe you will be loved, and love,  beyond your deepest imaginations and desires, wherever you will be... 

As far as "everyone" having opportunity, we will be judged on our understanding... in a world as diverse as ours, billions of people have lived and died without hearing or fully understanding the gospel of Jesus Christ... so what does that mean for those souls when Christian belief teaches that the only way to God is through Jesus Christ, i.e., every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ... 

Well...  The fullness of the gospel is on the earth today and being preached to as many people as we can reach... but for those who are not reached, or who do not fully understand...   John 5:25 - 28... Verily, verily I say unto you, the Hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God.  And they that hear shall live... Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice."

1 Peter 3:18-19... "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, so that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the spirit; by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison."

1 Peter 4:6... "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead"...  See also D&C 76:73... and particularly D&C 138:29 - 37...  and many more scriptures and writings on this topic...

GG

 

3 hours ago, Exiled said:

To me, it didn't make much sense having the entire family together in the first place.  Kids grow up, leave the nest and go out on their own with their own families.  Maybe together forever means having celestial holidays together?  I wonder if at celestial thanksgiving, there will be fights over celestial kingdom elections like there were re Trump v. Clinton?  I hear there is a contentious election going on right now up there over the LGTB issue.  Some are for letting them into the celestial kingdom (they point to spiritual biology and fairness) and some are against as it being a violation of tradition and what Elohim intended.  Although there is some speculation as to what Elohim really meant.  He has a hard time communicating his word up there as he does down here at times.

CFR that there is a "contentious election going on right now up there over the LGBT issue"... and that Eloheim "has a hard time communicating his word up there..."

Seriously?

GG

[Eek!]

44 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Abraham tells of there being various levels of intelligence and God being the most intelligent of them all. The D&C suggests that intelligence or light and truth can be gained.

We are each at different places along the path at this time.  Imo eternal progression is not a race, but those who have progressed farther are more useful at a given point in time because they can do more to help those not as far along.  Eternal progression implies that where we are Abraham once was, and where Abraham is God once was. 

44 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

As much as we might want it to be different, I believe that God's " house of order " implies organization which implies rank or hierarchy. 

Imo the context of the statement "the Lord's house is a house of order" has nothing to do with hierarchy.  I believe it is a mistake to interpret it as "the Lord's house is a house of hierarchy".   As you will see, the word is used to mean "the opposite of confusion", and not "hierarchy":

8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.

9 Will I accept of an offering, saith the Lord, that is not made in my name?

10 Or will I receive at your hands that which I have not appointed?

11 And will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law, even as I and my Father ordained unto you, before the world was?

44 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

The D&C suggests that intelligence or light and truth can be gained. It doesn't say everyone will/must gain it. That is one of the battles we currently fight here and now. Equality of opportunity vs. equality of outcome  . The battle is as old as the war in Heaven.

Once we have been healed of everything that is not part of who we really are, which may take a very long time, what will be left?  Only what God created.  I believe our authentic unencumbered self will turn to God because seeking reunion with our Source is central to our nature.  I believe that God did not make any flawed beings for whom returning to Him is not central to their very nature.  I also believe that how long it takes will not be held against us.  

And I understand that many people believe otherwise, which is fine.   We can all still move in the same general direction to the best of our abilities even if we disagree on the details.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Eek!