Pope Endorses Homosexual Behavior?

[smac97]

Here:

Quote

POPE Francis has told a gay man that God loves him during a private meeting, it has been claimed.

In a private dialogue, the Pontiff is understood to have told Juan Carlos Cruz, a victim of sexual abuse at the hands of Catholic priests, that God loves gay people and it is fine to be homosexual.

"Fine to be homosexual" seems a wee bit ambiguous (given the Catholic Church's teachings on homosexual behavior), but this nevertheless seems like a significant development.

Quote

The comments are the most striking public acceptance about homosexuality ever made by a head of the Roman Catholic Church.

The remarks were made during a private meeting at the Vatican between the pair, in which the Pope offered a heartfelt apology.

Cruz was a victim of Chile’s most notorious paedophile priest Fernando Karadima.

Father Karadima, now aged 87, was found guilty of sexual abuse by the Vatican in 2011.

Cruz claims that his suffering was ignored by a number of Latin American bishops who used his homosexuality to brand him a liar when he spoke out.

Speaking to Spanish newspaper El País, Cruz said: “He [the Pope] told me, ‘Juan Carlos, that you are gay does not matter.

“God made you like this and loves you like this and I don’t care.

“The pope loves you like this. You have to be happy with who you are.”

The Pope’s words signal a much more open and inclusive approach by the often restrictive faith – a move which will likely upset many conservative Catholics.

The Vatican has neither confirmed nor denied the comments the Pontiff’s comments to Cruz.

Hmm  I wonder how this will play out in the long run, and as to how devout Catholics will respond to this.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

[Gray]

I don't think anything has changed. Pope Francis frequently uses compassionate language, but he never seems to budge on Catholic doctrine

[2PairsofCletes]

Where do you get the idea that he has endorsed homosexual behavior?

Please don't tell me it's because he told a man, who happens to be a homosexual, that God loves him???????

[Exiled]

Abominablize:  When a Pope makes mormons quietly review "the great and abominable church" rhetoric in their hearts.

[2PairsofCletes]

Since we like people to go to LDS sources for accurate information, here is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about homosexuality

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,¹⁴⁰ tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."¹⁴¹ They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

 

 

[rongo]

6 minutes ago, 2PairsofCletes said:

Where do you get the idea that he has endorsed homosexual behavior?

Please don't tell me it's because he told a man, who happens to be a homosexual, that God loves him???????

We would need a lot more information than this article contains before we could say whether or not he had "endorsed homosexual behavior." It appears from this that he merely expressed God's love for him, regardless of any sins. Which most other churches (including the LDS) say as well. 

"God made you that way" is more problematic, but still not an endorsement for homosexual behavior.

Given his statements on divorce, abortion, and other things, it wouldn't surprise me if he wanted to downgrade sexual sin as a sin. But this article isn't the smoking gun for that. 

Edited May 21, 2018 by rongo

[Stargazer]

10 minutes ago, 2PairsofCletes said:

Where do you get the idea that he has endorsed homosexual behavior?

Please don't tell me it's because he told a man, who happens to be a homosexual, that God loves him???????

Read it again.  Hermano Cruz reported "He [the Pope] told me, ‘Juan Carlos, that you are gay does not matter. God made you like this and loves you like this and I don’t care."

[smac97]

27 minutes ago, 2PairsofCletes said:

Where do you get the idea that he has endorsed homosexual behavior?

"It is fine to be homosexual" seems to open to such an interpretation.  And please note the question mark in the title of the thread.

Quote

Please don't tell me it's because he told a man, who happens to be a homosexual, that God loves him???????

No, it's not because of that.  I agree with that sentiment.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited May 21, 2018 by smac97

[Robert F. Smith]

7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

..............................

Quote

 

That you are gay does not matter.

“God made you like this and loves you like this and I don’t care

 

..........................................

Well, Spencer, if the Pope admits up front that it isn't this guy's fault that he is homosexual, that merely agrees with Jesus in saying that the blind man was not to blame for his blindness from birth, nor  his parents.  No sin was involved, and blame cannot be laid.  God plainly does not hate a person based on birth defects.  LDS theology agrees that being homosexual is not a sin.  God obviously loves homosexuals just as much as heterosexuals.  So what is the problem here?   Acting on homosexual urges may be a sin, but the mere state of being as a homosexual cannot be faulted.  Unlike LDS theology, Roman Catholic theology makes God responsible for everything, so he may be saying that homosexual activity is O.K., but that would not square with the moral teachings of the RC Church.  It is not clear just what the Pope is saying.

[smac97]

13 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Well, Spencer, if the Pope admits up front that it isn't this guy's fault that he is homosexual, that merely agrees with Jesus in saying that the blind man was not to blame for his blindness from birth, nor  his parents.  No sin was involved, and blame cannot be laid.  God plainly does not hate a person based on birth defects.  LDS theology agrees that being homosexual is not a sin.  God obviously loves homosexuals just as much as heterosexuals.  So what is the problem here?   Acting on homosexual urges may be a sin, but the mere state of being as a homosexual cannot be faulted.  Unlike LDS theology, Roman Catholic theology makes God responsible for everything, so he may be saying that homosexual activity is O.K., but that would not square with the moral teachings of the RC Church.  It is not clear just what the Pope is saying.

I agree that things are not clear.  We're dealing with an ambiguous hearsay statement that has not been confirmed by the Vatican.  

I think a wait-and-see approach is the way to go.

Thanks,

-Smac

[california boy]

I think this is what the younger generation thinks about these pronouncements of organized religion 

 

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Here:

"Fine to be homosexual" seems a wee bit ambiguous (given the Catholic Church's teachings on homosexual behavior), but this nevertheless seems like a significant development.

Hmm  I wonder how this will play out in the long run, and as to how devout Catholics will respond to this.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

Cool, sounds like the Pope is in tune with the spirit to me.  

[ksfisher]

51 minutes ago, smac97 said:

"It is fine to be homosexual" seems to open to such an interpretation.  And please note the question mark in the title of the thread.

Is this an accurate English translation of what was said, or are there various possible translations?

[smac97]

6 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Is this an accurate English translation of what was said, or are there various possible translations?

Here's the Spanish version of the interview: https://elpais.com/internacional/2018/05/19/actualidad/1526687428_156217.html

Here's the English version of the interview: https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/05/21/inenglish/1526891952_958627.html

Here's the relevant English portion of the interview:

Quote

Q. Did you discuss your homosexuality and how you had to endure further suffering because of it?

A. Yes, we did. He had pretty much been told that I was a perverse being. I explained that I was not a saint, but that I am not a bad person, either. I try not to hurt anybody. He told me: “Juan Carlos, it doesn’t matter that you’re gay. God made you that way and that is the way He wants you to be, and I don’t mind. The Pope wants you this way too, and you have to be happy with who you are.”

Here's the Spanish version of the above portion:

Quote

P. ¿Hablaron de su homosexualidad y como le hicieron sufrir más por eso?

R. Sí, hablamos. A él le habían dicho prácticamente que yo era un perverso. Ahí le expliqué que yo no soy la reencarnación de San Luis Gonzaga pero no soy una mala persona, trato de no hacerle daño a nadie. Me dijo “Juan Carlos, que tú seas gay no importa. Dios te hizo así y te quiere así y a mí no me importa. El Papa te quiere así, tú tienes que estar feliz con quien tú eres”.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Nevo]

43 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Here's the Spanish version of the interview: https://elpais.com/internacional/2018/05/19/actualidad/1526687428_156217.html

Here's the English version of the interview: https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/05/21/inenglish/1526891952_958627.html

I think a better translation of "Dios te hizo así y te quiere así y a mí no me importa. El Papa te quiere así" would be: "God made you like this and loves you like this and to me it doesn't matter. The Pope loves you like this..." I don't think "querer" is best translated as "want" in this context.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Nevo

[theplains]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

LDS theology agrees that being homosexual is not a sin.  God obviously loves homosexuals just as much as heterosexuals.  So what is the problem here?   Acting on homosexual urges may be a sin, but the mere state of being as a homosexual cannot be faulted.  Unlike LDS theology, Roman Catholic theology makes God responsible for everything, ...

We only have hearsay in regards to the Pope's conversation instead of the actual video or audio transcript.

The Bible generally teaches against any sexual relations except between husband and wife. Homosexual acts 
are mentioned in seven Bible passages:

• Rape (Genesis 19:5, Judges 19:22)
• Relationships between men (Leviticus 18:21-22, Leviticus 20:13, Romans 1:27)
• Relationships between women (Romans 1:26)
• Prostitution and possibly pederasty (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)
• General in nature (1 Timothy 1:8-10)

The same principle of Matthew 5:28 can be applied to both homosexuals and heterosexuals.

I used to be a Roman Catholic. I did not get the impression that the RCC teaches God is responsible for everything.
For example, God is not responsible for someone teaching that He was once a man who became a God.

False doctrines originate with the devil.

Jim

[Robert F. Smith]

25 minutes ago, theplains said:

We only have hearsay in regards to the Pope's conversation instead of the actual video or audio transcript.

The Bible generally teaches against any sexual relations except between husband and wife. Homosexual acts 
are mentioned in seven Bible passages:

• Rape (Genesis 19:5, Judges 19:22)
• Relationships between men (Leviticus 18:21-22, Leviticus 20:13, Romans 1:27)
• Relationships between women (Romans 1:26)
• Prostitution and possibly pederasty (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)
• General in nature (1 Timothy 1:8-10)

The same principle of Matthew 5:28 can be applied to both homosexuals and heterosexuals.

I used to be a Roman Catholic. I did not get the impression that the RCC teaches God is responsible for everything.
For example, God is not responsible for someone teaching that He was once a man who became a God.

False doctrines originate with the devil.

Jim

The problem, Jim, is that the theology of St Thomas Aquinas is normative for RC theology, and it posits a Creator who is the First Cause:  An uncaused cause who creates everything ex nihilo, which means that He created everything, including Satan and evil.  Calvinists buy into the same absolute sovereignty of God, which brings in a chain of invidious and paradoxical consequences for their theology.  This is not only a non-biblical theology, but it is even self-destructive.  Little wonder that modern thinkers have abandoned such self-contradictory nonsense.

[CA Steve]

Don't we first have to determine if he was speaking as the Pope or just as a man?

Or are such distinctions not important to Catholics?

[Marginal Gains]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Well, Spencer, if the Pope admits up front that it isn't this guy's fault that he is homosexual, that merely agrees with Jesus in saying that the blind man was not to blame for his blindness from birth, nor  his parents.  No sin was involved, and blame cannot be laid.  God plainly does not hate a person based on birth defects.  LDS theology agrees that being homosexual is not a sin.  God obviously loves homosexuals just as much as heterosexuals.  So what is the problem here?   Acting on homosexual urges may be a sin, but the mere state of being as a homosexual cannot be faulted.  Unlike LDS theology, Roman Catholic theology makes God responsible for everything, so he may be saying that homosexual activity is O.K., but that would not square with the moral teachings of the RC Church.  It is not clear just what the Pope is saying.

Being gay is a birth defect? 

[theplains]

42 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The problem, Jim, is that the theology of St Thomas Aquinas is normative for RC theology, and it posits a Creator who is the First Cause:  An uncaused cause who creates everything ex nihilo, which means that He created everything, including Satan and evil.  Calvinists buy into the same absolute sovereignty of God, which brings in a chain of invidious and paradoxical consequences for their theology.  This is not only a non-biblical theology, but it is even self-destructive.  Little wonder that modern thinkers have abandoned such self-contradictory nonsense.

I am aware the Roman Catholic Church teaches that God created an angel (Lucifer) but that this angel is
the origin of evil.  From what I know of LDS theology, God required (originated) disobedience as the means
for Adam and Eve to procreate.  As this Old Testament study manual teaches, the sons of God shouted for
joy when they heard of God's plan of progression - that Adam and Eve would come to earth, they would need
to disobey Him, and then they would be blessed with joy and procreation.

Jim

[drums12]

2 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

Being gay is a birth defect? 

Seriously....quite making everyone an "offender for a word"

[sunstoned]

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Read it again.  Hermano Cruz reported "He [the Pope] told me, ‘Juan Carlos, that you are gay does not matter. God made you like this and loves you like this and I don’t care."

If this quote is correct (I am too lazy to read the full article) then I cannot see how anyone could disagree.  God created us, and who are we to judge god?

[Stargazer]

14 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

If this quote is correct (I am too lazy to read the full article) then I cannot see how anyone could disagree.  God created us, and who are we to judge god?

I certainly don't. And this has been discussed/argued to death, but we all have unrighteous impulses and temptations. That we're expected to resist.  Even though God presumably put us here with those impulses and temptations.  Should a person born with klepto impulses just go with the flow and steal, or should he resist the impulses?  Some men seem to have overdeveloped desires to bed every woman in sight. Should such a man resist the desire or impulse, or should he give it free reign?

[Marginal Gains]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

I certainly don't. And this has been discussed/argued to death, but we all have unrighteous impulses and temptations. That we're expected to resist.  Even though God presumably put us here with those impulses and temptations.  Should a person born with klepto impulses just go with the flow and steal, or should he resist the impulses?  Some men seem to have overdeveloped desires to bed every woman in sight. Should such a man resist the desire or impulse, or should he give it free reign?

Those are completely spurious analogies. Being gay is the equivalent to being straight. Not to kleptomania. Nor is someone seeking to act upon their attraction to be in a loving relationship any different to the same desire in a heterosexual. It’s not the equivalent of rampantly sleeping around.

If a heterosexual man gives in to his desire to marry a woman, is that the equivalent of kleptomania or rampant fornication? Of course not.

[Marginal Gains]

2 hours ago, drums12 said:

Seriously....quite making everyone an "offender for a word"

You were aiming for “quit”, right?

Edited May 22, 2018 by Marginal Gains